Mr Robot Optimizer

[kn1ghtone 0]

I am not understanding why Mr Robot always optimizes (recommends) putting in gems with secondary stats (mastery, hit, etc).  Shouldn't at the very least, all red sockets be full INT gems?

 

Even in their weighting, it shows that Int is weighed much heavier then the secondary stats.  I am just not understanding why it optimizes this way.  Isn't INT always king?

[Kazistrasz 216]

Int gives us the most DPS per point. However, gems give twice as many secondary stats as primary stats, so a yellow gem is 320 mastery versus 160 int on a red gem.

 

At low gear levels (i.e., up until about 510ish ilvl), red gems are better, because int is just worth that much more that your secondary stats. At medium to high gear levels (basically 510+), secondary stats take over for gems. One point of int is still worth more than one point of mastery, but one point of mastery has now become worth more than half of the value of one point of int. Double that, and you have that two mastery has now become more than one point of int.

 

Why does this change occur? Look at what the stats do for us. Int gives us spell power, which all of our spells scale with. Spell damage is always in the form of Base Damage + [some Coefficient] * Spell Power.  Our mastery is an outright (and significantly large) damage buff to our major sources of damage. For Demonology, it's a small buff to you in caster form but three times that (for a HUGE amount) when you're in Metamorphosis. The best part of your DPS is while you're in Metamorphosis using Doom, Soulfire, etc. For Affliction, it's a straight, gargantuan-sized buff to your DoTs, which is 90% of your damage. For Destro, it buffs your regular abilities a small amount but really jacks up your ember abilities (Chaos Bolt and Shadowburn).

 

But still, why the switch? Why doesn't int still stay our top priority for gemming? It's an optimization problem if you've done Algebra II.  You have two quantities, multiplied together. As one increases, the other decreases. In this case, our spells are found by that formula times our mastery buff (this is not completely accurate, but it's accurate enough for you to get the point). Since the base damage for the spell will remain constant, our spells's damage behaves as a function of spell power times mastery. In the case of stats, it becomes Int * Mastery.  When you have no gear at all, you always have a base amount of mastery that everything scales with (it's why when you mouseover Destro's mastery it says something like "Mastery 104.07% (24.80%+79.27%)". There's also the static 3,000 mastery you get from raid buff.

 

Back to that function of Int * Mastery.  We've already said mastery starts at a certain point. Now, Int also starts at a certain point, but it's much, much lower than what your Mastery starts at. Anything times 0 is 0, so the closer either stat is to 0, the closer you get to doing 0 damage. Since your Int starts much closer to 0 than your mastery, Int is MUCH more important than Mastery. Think if you have 5*12.  You have 60.  If you increase the 5 to 6, and get 6*12, you now have 72. If you increase the 12 to 13, you have 5*13=65. See how the lower number is the bigger increase? If you had 5*12, even increasing the 12 to 14 gives 5*14=70, which is lower than adding just one to that 5.

 

As you get more gear, the base amounts of int and mastery you will have from the gear itself (+3,362 Stamina +2,001 Intellect + 1,440 Mastery +1,263 Critical Strike) without gemming will make you equal out much more.  You're now looking at something closer to 22*20=440. Your options now, adding more stats with gems, are to increase the first number by one or increase the second number by two. 23*20=460, and 22*22=464. Adding two to mastery has now become more valuable than adding two to int because of how much more equalized they've become. Adding just one point to mastery to make 22*21=452 gives you less than adding one point of Int, but adding two points of mastery gives you more than adding one point of int.

 

Again, this isn't PRECISELY how it works, but it's generalized enough to still reflect the way the math actually works and give you the understanding to answer your question.  You might be thinking, "that makes sense for mastery, but what about haste and crit?" Just trust me on this that they will end up with a similar type of deal, only it's more complicated.

[Zagam 1,982]

Less wind version: because math says so. 

[Ilion 8]

Not wall of text version: Mastery's weight is about 1.4, Intellect is about 2,1 (I made up the numbers), gems give 2 points of a secondary stat for each point of a primary stat.

 

 

Is 1.4*2>2.1?

[Lockybalboa 618]

Also, fuck AMR

[Ilion 8]

Also, fuck AMR

 

 

Not at all, I find it to be most useful. You just have to know what your class needs.

[Astynax 24]

Not at all, I find it to be most useful. You just have to know what your class needs.

 

 

It's useful in determining how to maximize the stats you can squeeze out of your gear. It's completely worthless to a casual who wants to just load it up in a webpage and hit optimize, then go fix their gear like it says, which is ironic, since this is one of the major points it advertises. Without custom stat weights, it's a terrible terrible DPS hit.

[Lockybalboa 618]

It's useful in determining how to maximize the stats you can squeeze out of your gear. It's completely worthless to a casual who wants to just load it up in a webpage and hit optimize, then go fix their gear like it says, which is ironic, since this is one of the major points it advertises. Without custom stat weights, it's a terrible terrible DPS hit.

 

 

This is the same argument I've had with the developers of AMR for over a year. If you're going to build a website that is targeting casuals, then make it so that a casual can really use it. What most people do is they load their toon in, hit the button, and then do what it tells them to do without thinking. Most of them know nothing about what is even happening, just blindly following it; this would be fine if they weren't getting deceived. It's just mean to allow something as glaringly bad as what AMR does to exist and then to profit off of it. What makes me mad about it is that they've done this for YEARS and have NEVER fixed any of the HUGE issues with the classes. This has been the case with warlocks, ele sham, and ret pally (the three class/specs I've played over the years AMR has been around and that I've tried using AMR).

 

Imo, AMR needs a total overhaul. Get rid of the super fine stuff, the exp/mastery gems ARE a very, very, very small DPS gain over other things, but the people that USE AMR don't care about .01% gain/loss. Cut it down to the bear needs, simplicity is bliss. Like what reforgelite does only checking gems as well, K.I.S.S. Keep It Stupid Simple. Maybe have an advance options with a small blerb of text telling people the nity grity, but that should be something you have to turn on - hopefully in a place that the average casual that doesn't NEED to use it, won't ever find it.

 

This is the reason I post so much on IV. I stopped using the WoW forums because it's overrun with stupidity, I respect the creators of IV because they weren't satisfied with just writing guides. They then sought people out to check their info and build the site up. Doing this then attracted more, smarter people. Like Zag, Omric, Kaz, etc. That's how you build a site for profit.

[Lockybalboa 618]

You just have to know what your class needs.

 

97% of the casuals that use ARM are using it because they have no idea what their class needs. 

 

If you have the ability to teach, you have the responsibility to teach. You also have the responsibility to not spread moronic information to masses that are under the mistaken impression that you know what you're doing.

[Zagam 1,982]

Just saying, with those Int/Mastery gems, I hit 50k Spell Power.  Booya.

[Agrack 0]

You've really caught my interest here, I allways thought that Mr Robots optimisations looked ok, and I'm surprised to find out there not. So i'd really like to know how I should be working them out.

 

Here's my current setup:

 

 

My Mr.Robot Profile

 

 

Many thanks!

Edited November 6, 2013 by Krazyito
Fixed broken link

[Astynax 24]

You've really caught my interest here, I allways thought that Mr Robots optimisations looked ok, and I'm surprised to find out there not. So i'd really like to know how I should be working them out.

 

Here's my current setup:

 

 

 

<a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/the_sha" href="http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/eu/the_sha" tar="" agrack"="">Many thanks!

 

I'll run this through my simcraft later, and efit it then. The way I do sat weights is just simcraft them out, then AMR the edited weights to get my reforge strategy.

[Agrack 0]

I'll run this through my simcraft later, and efit it then. The way I do sat weights is just simcraft them out, then AMR the edited weights to get my reforge strategy.

 

If you could have a look for me that would be amazing. thank you!

[Krazyito 521]

You've really caught my interest here, I allways thought that Mr Robots optimisations looked ok, and I'm surprised to find out there not. So i'd really like to know how I should be working them out.

 

Here's my current setup:

 

 

My Mr.Robot Profile

 

 

Many thanks!

 

I fixed your link for you.  When a URL contains an apostrophe (') it tends to break when linking in differing places.  I just loaded up your toon and then clicked the "save" button on AMR to get a full link.

[kn1ghtone 0]

Thanks so much for the information in this thread.  I was a semi-hardcore raider a long while ago, but I really haven't had the time to do it since.  I am now a very casual player, I get on when I can.

 

So I rely on sites like AMR to quickly tell me the best optimized stats for my gear.  It sounds like you are all saying the site is ok, but you really need to have personalized stat weights.  And to be honest, I only started using AMR because I wanted to get my Hit to 15% as efficiently as possible. 

 

So let me ask this.  How bad is it if I just use what AMR says blindly?  Like I said, I am just casual player.  LFR mostly (so help me god) and possibly a little Flex during the winter.   What else should I/could I be doing that would be easy. I really don't want to simcraft out my stuff everytime I get new gear.  I just want simple and fast.  

[Ilion 8]

97% of the casuals that use ARM are using it because they have no idea what their class needs. 

 

If you have the ability to teach, you have the responsibility to teach. You also have the responsibility to not spread moronic information to masses that are under the mistaken impression that you know what you're doing.

 

Well, atleast is not shittier than noxxic.

 

That's pure poison, man.

[Rakupenda 15]

Thanks so much for the information in this thread.  I was a semi-hardcore raider a long while ago, but I really haven't had the time to do it since.  I am now a very casual player, I get on when I can.

 

So I rely on sites like AMR to quickly tell me the best optimized stats for my gear.  It sounds like you are all saying the site is ok, but you really need to have personalized stat weights.  And to be honest, I only started using AMR because I wanted to get my Hit to 15% as efficiently as possible. 

 

So let me ask this.  How bad is it if I just use what AMR says blindly?  Like I said, I am just casual player.  LFR mostly (so help me god) and possibly a little Flex during the winter.   What else should I/could I be doing that would be easy. I really don't want to simcraft out my stuff everytime I get new gear.  I just want simple and fast.  

Simple and fast analysis without using an optimizer:

---Know your stat priorities  (Example: Mastery > Haste > Crit)

---Unreforge all of your gear.

---Match all of your sockets for bonus (Int + Mastery "Artful" in red, Hit + Mastery "Sensei's" in blue, Mastery "Fractured" in yellow).

---Get as close to 15% Hit cap you can (+/- 100) by reforging out of Crit (in this example), or reforge excess Hit to Mastery/Haste.

---Look at your Haste breakpoints. Are you within a couple hundred points of the next one? (say you're at 9500 and are considering going for the 9778 Agony breakpoint). Reforge some Crit into haste.

---And you're done.

 

Anything beyond that is min/maxing to squeeze out an extra thousand dps or so if you had an optimal rotation. Not really worth your time unless you're a top-end raider or unless your decision making process midfight is perfect.

[Astynax 24]

Simple and fast analysis without using an optimizer:

---Know your stat priorities  (Example: Mastery > Haste > Crit)

---Unreforge all of your gear.

---Match all of your sockets for bonus (Int + Mastery "Artful" in red, Hit + Mastery "Sensei's" in blue, Mastery "Fractured" in yellow).

---Get as close to 15% Hit cap you can (+/- 100) by reforging out of Crit (in this example), or reforge excess Hit to Mastery/Haste.

---Look at your Haste breakpoints. Are you within a couple hundred points of the next one? (say you're at 9500 and are considering going for the 9778 Agony breakpoint). Reforge some Crit into haste.

---And you're done.

 

Anything beyond that is min/maxing to squeeze out an extra thousand dps or so if you had an optimal rotation. Not really worth your time unless you're a top-end raider or unless your decision making process midfight is perfect.

 

 

While you're entirely correct, this is a pretty significant time sink. TBH, Simcraft takes 5 mins, and will fix your DPS to within 10k of max, or it does from my experience.

 

Thanks so much for the information in this thread.  I was a semi-hardcore raider a long while ago, but I really haven't had the time to do it since.  I am now a very casual player, I get on when I can.

 

So I rely on sites like AMR to quickly tell me the best optimized stats for my gear.  It sounds like you are all saying the site is ok, but you really need to have personalized stat weights.  And to be honest, I only started using AMR because I wanted to get my Hit to 15% as efficiently as possible. 

 

So let me ask this.  How bad is it if I just use what AMR says blindly?  Like I said, I am just casual player.  LFR mostly (so help me god) and possibly a little Flex during the winter.   What else should I/could I be doing that would be easy. I really don't want to simcraft out my stuff everytime I get new gear.  I just want simple and fast.  

 

 

AMR alone will net you ~ a 20k dps loss. I recommend getting simcraft. It takes 10 minutes to run and put the weights into AMR, and will fix most of your stat problems with just a light investment of time. It's not entirely optimal, but unless you're pushing cutting edge shit, it's good enough.

[Ilion 8]

AMR alone will net you ~ a 20k dps loss. I recommend getting simcraft. It takes 10 minutes to run and put the weights into AMR, and will fix most of your stat problems with just a light investment of time. It's not entirely optimal, but unless you're pushing cutting edge shit, it's good enough.

 

 

 

Gotta love how people make up numbers.

[Astynax 24]

If you could have a look for me that would be amazing. thank you!

 

 

Okay, Did the simcraft, changed a bit based on experience, so this may not be optimal, but I've got class, and don't have the time to iterate this more atm. So hesitant ruling on stat weights is this:

int: 7.5

SP: 5.8

hit: 6.81

crit: 4.23

haste:4.08

Mast: 4.45

 

 

I have your haste capped at the 30.1% immolate tick. You're not gaining anything with the extra you have now, really, so I got rid of it. The AMR reforge you get here has you gaining 1.21% mastery and almost 3% crit.

[Astynax 24]

Gotta love how people make up numbers.

 

 

that's all from my personal experience. So I guess they're kind of arbitrary, but since we're talking about the way I determine reforges.....

[drumsmani 47]

What is the "correct" or recommended way of using simcraft to get weights?

 

For example, let's say I have already used AMR in default mode and done all the reforges / gemming based on it's suggestion. Now when I get new gear and run it through sim, I'm going to be getting some weights, but aren't those likely to be affected by existing reforges / gems? 

 

Should I start from scratch - as in, import my character, but remove the existing reforges / gems from the profile and then run sim to get the scaling factors appropriate for my gear? 

 

Sorry if this is a diversion from the OP.

[Greenthy 0]

But are the gains substantial doing it using simcraft as opposed to just doing standard amr?

After comming back from years of absense, amr is pretty much all I use.

[Twinkielock 15]

This is what I'm doing.

Mastery

Haste to 10,124 haste. I have normal PBI, and flex totem.

Crit

Haste

[Rakupenda 15]

While you're entirely correct, this is a pretty significant time sink. TBH, Simcraft takes 5 mins, and will fix your DPS to within 10k of max, or it does from my experience.

 

AMR alone will net you ~ a 20k dps loss. I recommend getting simcraft. It takes 10 minutes to run and put the weights into AMR, and will fix most of your stat problems with just a light investment of time. It's not entirely optimal, but unless you're pushing cutting edge shit, it's good enough.

Time sink compared to learning how to use Simcraft properly (if you've never done it before) or a new add-on? I mean, just look at the questions you sparked:

What is the "correct" or recommended way of using simcraft to get weights?

Which is also subjective...not to mention Simcraft is only as accurate as the underlying program.

 

I was proposing a non-add-on, non-external optimizing alternative. You don't have to learn anything new, it's just using WoW and some basic class knowledge. The five minutes you spend setting up Simcraft (as an experienced user, no doubt) I can completely reforge my gear from scratch to the guidelines I suggested.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Rakupenda