Sub DPS vs Mut DPS

[lipsinch 46]

Herro mah frends!
 
I got some doubts here concerning those specs pointed, as I've heard that Sub is doing on par damage with Mut, if not better. I've been switching between them, and I've noticed a huge gap on my DPS when switching: mainly 'cause I suck on doing Sub rotation out of PvP and 'cause I'm used to play as Mut on PvE, not even taking into consideration my lack of equipment.
 
What I'm curious is about rotation, perhaps it can yield better results with the other spec if I do the correct rotation and use buffs on oportune moments (I'm really curious, I might be doing it wrong - I'm probably doing wrong).
 
So far this is my rotation on Mut and yields me ~80k DPS on SoO:
 
Garrote > SnD > Mut > Envenom > Disp(if procced on previous mut) > Mut/Disp > 5CP Envenom > Mut/Disp > 5CP Rup and so on.
 
And this is my Sub rotation that yield me incredible ~42k DPS on SoO:
 
MfD > SnD > Prem > Ambush > Hemo > Evis > Backstab/Hemo with CP Weaving (I got a problem with this due to my PC, so it lags somewhat and I can't manage to see if I'm behind boss or no - might be one of the issues my DPS is so low - but BS is more often) > 5CP Evis > Back/Hemo with Weaving > 5CP Evis > BS/Hemo Weaving > SnD up > etc, etc, etc
 
Sometimes I fit into the rotation a 5CP Recup, or I forget to keep Hemo up (or even with Hemo up) I 5CP Rupture (rather often, Mut habit).
 
I'm concerned about SD usage, which I seem to use pretty little (don't find/know the right moments to use it - should I use with raid-wide buff, i.e. Hero? Or just use on CD given I have SnD and a bleed running with 12s or more?) and ShB, which basically is the same concern as SD.
 
Also, how am I supposed to keep up FW (since I believe it's the best buff Sub has and it's what makes the spec shine)? Opener > 10s after Vanish > 10s after SD > 10s after Vanish with Prep if necessary > SD > Vanish, etc?
 
About Mut, same doubts @Vendetta.
 
I'll provide a log tonight (once I figure out how to get one... >->)
 
Bonus:
 

Props to Tosan @Skill-Capped.
 
very amaze.
 
Edit: Correcting punctuation and repetition of words. h3h3

Edited November 8, 2013 by lipsinch

[Onzichtbaars 0]

do you keep up rupture on the target? if not, that might be the problem because if you're in subtlety spec, your rupture's damage increases by 50% and as long as it is on the target, your damage on that target is increased by 25%. 

[lipsinch 46]

I use Hemorrhaging Veins Glyph, so I have on the 20% buff when I Hemo. Do you think Rupture has that big impact on it?

Edited November 9, 2013 by lipsinch

[Elro 47]

Rupture is huge for sub, and one thing I noticed about your Mut opener is that you use Garrote. Never use Garrote in PvE. You should open up with Mutilate, as the Shadow Focus talent you use makes it cost almost nothing. Garrote is only useful for PvP, in most situations.

[Onzichtbaars 0]

yea I think your dps will be better if you apply and keep up rupture

by the way, did you reforge your gear to haste and crit? if not, you should try it and it might make a difference

[lipsinch 46]

Currently, my gear is kind of messed up due to using several PvP parts and I'm gearing so far.

 

And I thought that Haste/Mastery was the correct for Sub, no?

 

And thanks for your input, I'll try it.

[Hiuhime 1]

A few things

 

1. Use Vanish/Preperation to maintain 'Find Weakness' (100% Armor Penetration) as much as possible - while this buff is up, you want to renew your Hemo-bleed, due to it benefitting from the ARP from Find Weakness. - This procs from Ambush and Garrote.

2. Rupture as mentioned above.

3. If there are any fights where you can't DPS in the back all the way, I'd suggest going for Combat/Assa on that fight, seeing as Hemo doesn't provide as much dps as Backstab does.

 

But the main thing as sublety, is keeping as high as possible, uptime on your Find Weakness debuff, I personally use WeakAura's for tracking this, the ideal uptime for most encounters should be around 60%.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Hiuhime

[Hiuhime 1]

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Edited November 10, 2013 by Hiuhime

[lipsinch 46]

So should I drop Hemo Veins glyph? Also, I've been experimentating Sharp Knives Glyph for AoE, although I'm kind of lost on what kind of rotation should I do as Sub in that scenario.

 

Else I'm fitting more 5CP Ruptures in my rotation and I'm trying to time SD with Vanish to keep it up.

 

Hiuhime, how do you track your buffs/debuffs with Weakauras? I'm lost on that addon.

[lipsinch 46]

Update: I'm having a higher upkeep on Rupture while on the mobs aaaaaaand FW and that netted me a 32k increase on DPS! (Without mentioning that SoO LFR weapon I dropped last week)

 

Thanks gais.

[Onzichtbaars 0]

glad to see your dps went up :)

[isaaruOfBB 0]

do you keep up rupture on the target? if not, that might be the problem because if you're in subtlety spec, your rupture's damage increases by 50% and as long as it is on the target, your damage on that target is increased by 25%. 

 

eviscerate > rupture damage wise,, a sub rogue only uses rupture for uptime of sanguinary vein, which increases damage by 35% on that target, not 25%

 

 

I use Hemorrhaging Veins Glyph, so I have on the 20% buff when I Hemo. Do you think Rupture has that big impact on it?

 

i Stoped using Rupture the day i learned Hemorrhaging Veins glyph exsited and my dps has increased. 5CP eviscerates replaces all my past ruptures and im allways doing 35% increased dmg on my target thanks to how the glyph works With Sanguinary Vein.

[isaaruOfBB 0]

Currently, my gear is kind of messed up due to using several PvP parts and I'm gearing so far.

 

And I thought that Haste/Mastery was the correct for Sub, no?

 

And thanks for your input, I'll try it.

Haste/Crit is my understanding.....gogo mrrobot....mastery is better for ass i think

[isaaruOfBB 0]

also if im wrong about rupture please explain to me how, it uses resources that are better spent else where(like on evis where i can benifit  from FindWeakness...rupture does not benifit as it all rdy ignores armor)

also rupture does not Increase my dmg because my dmg is allready being increased by Sanguinary vein which is being activated by hemo once every 24seconds.

plus i mean math       hemo gives one combo point > rupture spends 5 that could else wise be an eviscrate

as long as you have a bleed effect on your target you should never waste time casting another bleed, (

a rogue autta use garrote hemo or rupture,or crimson tempest, pointless to use more then one of them, and im sure no one using BS 100% of the time, so hemo activating Sanguinary vein throws ruptures perpuse outthe door doesnt it?

[Tswizzy 0]

so between the two for both specs, having rupture up is good. mut is needed due to the energy return it offers. sub is for the extra damage is does with rupture and the extra raw damage bonus it offers through Vein. if your having issues with dps with rupture being up i think it might be a gear problem. at higher gear levels you can stack more haste and therfore get more energy more finishers yada yada. 

[Onzichtbaars 0]

also if im wrong about rupture please explain to me how, it uses resources that are better spent else where(like on evis where i can benifit  from FindWeakness...rupture does not benifit as it all rdy ignores armor)

also rupture does not Increase my dmg because my dmg is allready being increased by Sanguinary vein which is being activated by hemo once every 24seconds.

plus i mean math       hemo gives one combo point > rupture spends 5 that could else wise be an eviscrate

as long as you have a bleed effect on your target you should never waste time casting another bleed, (

a rogue autta use garrote hemo or rupture,or crimson tempest, pointless to use more then one of them, and im sure no one using BS 100% of the time, so hemo activating Sanguinary vein throws ruptures perpuse outthe door doesnt it?

 

I don't think it's smart to drop rupture out of your rotation. My rupture ticks for about 20-25k without any trinket procs or buffs. If I'm right, rupture damage ticks every 2 seconds. So it deals like 20k damage every 2 seconds. Rupture's ticks can also crit (I'm sitting at about 42% crit unbuffed) so I often see a rupture tick critting. Note that rupture costs 25 energy and eviscerate 35 energy.