Warlords of Draenor

[Muoric 3]

Now, for those 10 mans that are saying "i cant double my roster cause i don't have that many people on the realm", well since Normal/Heroic is going to be flexible you can cross realm them and find new people to recruit.

The point I was trying to make earlier was that it isn't an option to do that until WoD comes unless they make it possible to do soo heroic with flexible size. If you're trying to recruit before that and get to 20 man you have to sit out a lot of people when doing it since you can't get more than 10 raiders in until you have enough to do 25. And that imo is a big problem and will hinder the recruitment a lot before WoD actually launches unless something is done about it.

I really don't see it as a possibility to get up from 10 to 25 in a short time span so even if you're raiding heroic soo 10 man now it won't be trivial to go 25 man. If it were I'd wager people would have done it earlier also. I know we would have in my previous guild, but even keeping a roster of 10 was sometimes problematic.

And all this is from a heroic 25 man raider perspective btw. I just used to do (some) hcs in 10 before that guild broke a part completely.

[Brewmonksta 157]

 

If you just straight up don't want to raid with 10 other people (becasue you like your small raid size), well unfortunately that's just something you're going to have to give up because you're part of the minority and the real reason most people raid is becasue of the content.

 

Depends how you define minority i suppose.

21805 - 10 man normal immerseus kills (218,050 raiders assuming a no sub roster)

1756 - 25 man normal immserseus kills (43,900 raiders assuming a no sub roster)

25man based off those figures holds 17ish% of the 260,000 or so raiders (rounding and napkin math applied)

To me this shows that 25 mans are the minority....

 

Are my figures grossly wrong somewhere?

(guild numbers taken from wow progress)

[Ceraius 34]

We're talking cutting edge raiding, so normal Immerseus might be a bad standpoint. Although I do expect the ratio to be more or less the same for HC. Maybe tilting the 25man sector a tad higher.

 

Don't get me wrong, I too raid in a 10man environment, and am bummed by the Mythical to require 20 people. Just saying that probably some further boss on heroic difficulty would be a better comparison for the subject.

[Krazyito 521]

Depends how you define minority i suppose.

21805 - 10 man normal immerseus kills (218,050 raiders assuming a no sub roster)

1756 - 25 man normal immserseus kills (43,900 raiders assuming a no sub roster)

25man based off those figures holds 17ish% of the 260,000 or so raiders (rounding and napkin math applied)

To me this shows that 25 mans are the minority....

 

Are my figures grossly wrong somewhere?

(guild numbers taken from wow progress)

 

When i say minority, I mean as in the people who play 10 man with the excuse "I play 10 man because of the small raid size".  Not actually how many people play 10 man.  

 

People do 10 man for a VARIETY of different reasons, namely being easier to manage since the loot rewards are the same.

 

And honestly, we're talking about heroic raiding 10 mans.   The ones that haven't done any heroic raids don't necessarily count since they can still do 10 man in normal/heroic next expac

[Muoric 3]

Depends how you define minority i suppose.

21805 - 10 man normal immerseus kills (218,050 raiders assuming a no sub roster)

1756 - 25 man normal immserseus kills (43,900 raiders assuming a no sub roster)

25man based off those figures holds 17ish% of the 260,000 or so raiders (rounding and napkin math applied)

To me this shows that 25 mans are the minority....

 

Are my figures grossly wrong somewhere?

(guild numbers taken from wow progress)

As others have said, you're using the wrong numbers. 10 mans doing only normal will still be able to do exactly that in WoD, just being able to actually take all their raiders with them when they go unlike now. I assume very few guilds go with strict 10 man rosters because that would mean skipping raids if even 1 person can't come that time.

The better numbers are from heroic immerseus (22448 10 man guilds and 5628 25 man guilds). Which still means that 25 are in a minority, but suddenly compromise about 2/5 of the actual player population. And from personal experience I'd skew that data a bit more towards 25 mans since they tend to have a larget bench.

[Brewmonksta 157]

 

10 heroic - 4743 Immerseus Heroic kills - Must now be 20 man

25 heroic - 875 Immerseus Heroic kills - Must now be 20 man

10 Normal - 21,626 Immerseus Kills - Now Flex

25 Normal - 1736 Immerseus Kills - Now Flex

 

Here is from my first post.

 

 

When i say minority, I mean as in the people who play 10 man with the excuse "I play 10 man because of the small raid size".  Not actually how many people play 10 man. 

I get this.

Regardless there are more people affected in the 10 man scene by the changes than in the 25 man.

I fall into the category of 10 people is easier to organise at a social level whilst still requiring skill. I feel the social challenge of maintaining the 25 people is a downside rather than as some have described as "part of the game".

[nicarlitos 13]

Sorry Krazyito, but I don't really buy that.

 

I, and I suspect many other average joe raiders, don't really care about about the mass debate on which party size is harder.

 

Raiding is about about getting bosses down with your team and not about feeling bitter because other people might have it slightly easier. If 10 man is 5% harder than 25 man.....so what? Its not enough to make me want to recruit/pug to fill up the backlog. And I suspect the margins are much finer than that too.

 

 

Does it really matter if 10 and 25 are perfectly balanced? Unless you're in a top 10 guild, I don't think so. I'm not going for world firsts, I just want to be able to continue progression with my team.

 

 

IMO, 25 man is inherently easier than 10 man anyway- more CRs, better class coverage, greater ability to carry weaker players,etc, (think about why LFR is 25 man and not 10 man) but that doesn't make me want to do it. I like 10 man raiding. I've tried 25 man before, but I didn't like it as much. You don't get to know people as well as you do in 10 man- makes for a sterile experience. Our team has a great vibe and we play the game for enjoyment, not just to keep up with the neighbors!

 

Still pretty pissed off I'm afraid.

 

 

 

"First, as 10/25 has been "time tested" the results have returned negative.  There is too much "10 vs 25" debate where one thinks the other is harder than the other in difficulty (This is talking about the highest level of difficulty in raiding).  This does not help the community work together as a whole to provide positive feedback since there is information coming in from differing sides.

 

While, yes they have been tuning 10/25 for a while now, they have found (and most agree) that you can't make them equal enough in difficulty to really call it equal."

[Furiyers 10]

My only complaint is that it semi-gates heroic content to current 10-man guilds that only down a few bosses on heroic per tier. For example: my guild in ToT was able to kill Jin'rokh, Ji-Kun, and Iron Qon on heroic... bosses 1, 6, and 10. In WoD this would be impossible since mythic is one set difficulty; there will be no more "switching on/off" heroic mode and guilds will be forced to progress in order. The only slight exception would be raids with non-linear layouts which I really really hope they will stick with consistently this time around. Bumping up to a 20-man roster isn't a huge deal to someone in my situation since we can gradually flex our way up to 20 in heroic and then move into mythic if we so choose. Overall I think it's a good system and by the time 6.1 comes out all of the roster growing/shrinking QQ will be long forgotten just like when 40-man was abandoned.

[kitsu 55]

i am in a ten man that clears normal and does a few heroics and i think the new raid sizes will be good. flex size means we can bring people as long as we progress and if we have to leave people out to clear new heroic we can slowly train one or two people per run until we get our numbers up to a 20 man kill on new heroic. then we'll just be a 20 man group that does a few mythic bosses.

 

as ive raided throughout tot and soo a couple people per month come by and we let them sub in and they turn out to be great players, but i cant just drop a loyal player from my group because some new guy's output is 5% better than theirs. the new people who wouldve made good additions to the team drift away, sometimes just stop logging in or xfer or whatever. the new difficulty and flex size will, for most groups like mine end any scramble for subs if someone is gone and allow us to pick up people who want to show up but cant always make it to our base ten at any time.

 

i really dont think it'll be that long before we could have a group of people, exited enough about being included finally, that could do a few mythic bosses by the end of an expansion.

Edited November 13, 2013 by kitsu

[Krazyito 521]

I get this.

Regardless there are more people affected in the 10 man scene by the changes than in the 25 man.

I fall into the category of 10 people is easier to organise at a social level whilst still requiring skill. I feel the social challenge of maintaining the 25 people is a downside rather than as some have described as "part of the game".

Well, in the new mode it wont matter anyway because everyone has to do the same thing.  Everyone is going to have to try to manage 20 people if they want to do mythic content.

 

Sorry Krazyito, but I don't really buy that.

 

I, and I suspect many other average joe raiders, don't really care about about the mass debate on which party size is harder.

 

Does it really matter if 10 and 25 are perfectly balanced? Unless you're in a top 10 guild, I don't think so. I'm not going for world firsts, I just want to be able to continue progression with my team.

 

While they really don't, apparently blizzard feels that the most cutting edge content is worth changing for balance concerns.  If you've never gotten to the last 2 or so bosses of heroic modes while they were still relevant, those people don't know how important this decision is and it doesn't matter that they do becasue it wont affect them as much anyway.

 

It doesn't matter if you're in a world first guild or not. It still doesn't deter the fact that balancing around 1 difficulty makes the game play the way it should.  By only having 1 they can make it more enjoyable and not have to worry about "well since 10 cant do this, 25 cant either" or vice-versa.

 

 

Raiding is about about getting bosses down with your team and not about feeling bitter because other people might have it slightly easier. If 10 man is 5% harder than 25 man.....so what? Its not enough to make me want to recruit/pug to fill up the backlog. And I suspect the margins are much finer than that too.

 

Yea, raid is about getting bosses, but since they are the ones that decide how the game will work, its what you're going to have to do regardless if you want to do that content.

 

 

IMO, 25 man is inherently easier than 10 man anyway- more CRs, better class coverage, greater ability to carry weaker players,etc, (think about why LFR is 25 man and not 10 man) but that doesn't make me want to do it. I like 10 man raiding. I've tried 25 man before, but I didn't like it as much. You don't get to know people as well as you do in 10 man- makes for a sterile experience. Our team has a great vibe and we play the game for enjoyment, not just to keep up with the neighbors!

 

 I've always said 25 is harder than 10.  The sheer fact that there are WAY MORE 10 man raiders than 25 man shows this.  Humans in general always take the path of least resistance.  There's the few that want to do it differently, but its human nature to do what's easier.. Ghostcrawler himself even said that it was his opinion that 10 was easier than 25.  All the people who say 10 man is harder aren't doing it for that reason.  they are doing it because its easier than managing 15 other people for the same type of loot.

 

You also can't say that "I don't get to know the people as well as you do in 10" if you've only done a 25 once.  I was in a 25 man for 2 years (still am) For the entire duration of the guild I was in, I absolutely hated my GM.  He was main tank, and arrogant as fuck, but I stuck around becasue I loved everyone else.  I got to know everyone that went though that guild for the time I was there and had a strong bond with my healing team and with a few other DPS.  If I was in a 10 man with a similar style, I would have probably left earlier because I would have had to deal with the GM I hated more often.

 

To comment on your last sentence, for the VAST majority of players who do current Heroic content, just like my statement on humans taking the easiest path available, humans thrive on competition, the enjoyment not only comes out of playing the game and killing the boss, but to have that competition against other people to kill it faster.  The world would not function if we didn't have competition.  I can assure you that 90% of the people who raid, drive themselves to do better and to kill bosses faster due to competition with "their neighbors".  Thats where the fun is.  Thats the main reason there are even this many guilds doing heroic content.

 

To conclude, this new raid size will enhance the competitive feel of doing this content becasue there will be more guilds to stack themselves up against.  There wont be a "Oh, hes (10/25) man so he doesn't count".  There will be a "Oh man, this guild is clearing Mythic bosses faster than us.  What can I do to improve my damage?"

[EgoReaper 9]

I read most of this and This is getting TL:DR because I need to get to work, but There will be 10 mans that disband. 5 people will get the bench, BUT if they have a larger roster, they may just recruit 5 more or use 5 of the main raider's alts to create a second raid team that raids after the first and only clears up to what the first has cleared (probably won't see the extra runs until you've seen a lot of content cleared).

My Hopes with mythic:

1.It doesn't get nerfed until it's absolutely necessary. And even then it doesn't get nerfed once it's possible to do.

2.It gives significantly better gear. Mythic Gear should be 50% better than heroic gear IMO. Extra rewards for clearing the most difficult content.

3.They create many scenarios tailored to each class.

4.They make the progression longer! Simply by making gear have so much, making it so that most of your raid has Mythic gear before being able to kill a certain boss would make mythic raiding that much better imo.

that's all for now, drop the 25 vs 10 plz, it's going away and so should the debate about it.

[Omaric 246]

4.They make the progression longer! Simply by making gear have so much, making it so that most of your raid has Mythic gear before being able to kill a certain boss would make mythic raiding that much better imo.

 

I can't agree with this.  When you tune the content assuming that the raiders are geared from the content they're trying to progress on, then you start having to deal with luck of the drops.  Nobody wants to feel like it's impossible to progress simply because they just don't have the gear to do it.

[Storm 426]

There are usually a few bosses that are "gear checks". But they're usually tuned so that the best guilds in the world can beat them if they perform flawlessly with last tier's gear. For most normal people it's a matter of gearing up for a week or two to make the fight easier.

 

I'd rather see bosses with difficult mechanics than bosses that have nearly impossible enrage timers.

[EgoReaper 9]

I can't agree with this.  When you tune the content assuming that the raiders are geared from the content they're trying to progress on, then you start having to deal with luck of the drops.  Nobody wants to feel like it's impossible to progress simply because they just don't have the gear to do it.

How about longer fights? Longer fights mean more time needed to be perfect, making it possible, but still harder to achieve. Either way, it has to be driving Ian nuts that people are killing content so fast, especially Garrosh who is a longer fight.

Edit: When I said 5 players will get the bench, I meant in 25 man guilds. Sorry, I was trying to be quick this morning.

Edited November 15, 2013 by EgoReaper

[Omaric 246]

Longer fights I'm definitely down with.  :D

 

I think that's one of the reasons they chose to go this route.  I think we can expect a lot more fights to be like Garrosh in Mythic raids.

[Watermasta 7]

CC in Warlords of Draenor

We are planning to take a strong look at CC in Warlords with the intent of dialing things back a little. We do think it's important that players are rewarded for using CC intelligently (by coordinating usage, being mindful of diminishing returns, etc), but we think we can approach things in a way that allows us to tone down CC overall while still providing that gameplay. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

So it seems they're dumbing down the use of CC. I am not a fan of this. What do you guys think?

[Storm 426]

I think they're talking about PVP more than PVE. Ever since its inception, arenas are basically about building a comp with good CC, and coordinating them well. It'll be interesting to see what they have in mind, because without CC there really isn't a whole lot else to differentiate one team from another. other than gear and your ability to kick the healer.

 

In PVE CC is rarely used anyways. in the early expansion there are sometimes a few heroics that require CC for larger pulls. and once or twice in a raid there may be trash pulls that need to be CC'd. Or maybe even a boss fight with adds that can be CC'd, but that's extremely rare.

 

I would love to see longer, more difficult dungeons like we had in BC that actually require MORE cc than what we're using currently. Back in BC they balanced the difficulty by having all of the trash give rep, which would be used to buy decent gear that would help you get into raiding, and also the final bosses dropped epics.

 

I'd have a lot more fun running one challenging 1-hour dungeon, than 6 10 minute power clears.

[Watermasta 7]

I totally agree with you about taking it back to BC level of challenge for dungeons. I knew several people who were decked out in epics, yet heroic Shattered Halls was stil pretty challenging. I like the use of CC in dungeons. This "group everything up and aoe it down" is boring. Coordinating CC with strangers can be fun. I think the skill level of the area player base needs to rise as there is an entire "generation" of WoW players who only ever know to group up and aoe things down.

As far as PVP goes, they would really need to scale healers back a bit. You basically can't out damage a healer in area without them being CCed considerably. Either make interupts more important, or lower their healing capability.

[Ceraius 34]

I'd very much like to see 5mans that would offer similar degree of challenge than normal level raiding. 5mans are very underappreciated nowdays and the time period of when they're relevant is very very slim. I'd like to see tha change indeed.

[Archimage 98]

Totally agree with the CC (PvP and PvE) and the level of challenge in dungeons and in Raids.

 

(My opinions):

Blizzard should have some mechanic in LFR to address the "noobness level":

Players that are entering a raid/fighting a boss for the first time gets a 25 charge buff that decreases damage taken and increases damage/healing done by 1% per charge, each time they complete the instance/boss it removes one charge.  This way people will steadily need to become better.

 

One important factor in RPGs is "Progress". When I heard they were releasing Timeless Gear, my heart sank, knowing that new players are getting a instant upgrade, not having the need to farm gear in raids. Each time Blizzard makes things Account-bound results in players losing attachments to characters. So when someone asks you "What class do you play?", you gonna say "Well, I play with all the classes". Now how weird is that for a RPG? They gonna think you play like 24/7. 

 

Rehashing content is not that bad. If Blizzard could implement a way for us to scale our gear so that we could do old content raids, new players might just experience the fun older players had. I wouldn't call doing Classic/BC/WotlK/Cata raids in MoP gear an achievement. Farming for Transmorgs and collectibles is another story.

[Stoove 347]

I really think that the impact of Mythic raiding on guilds like mine have been understated. For guilds raiding 10man on servers with tiny numbers of raiders, recruiting that extra 10 people is nigh impossible. Couple that with the fact that for my guild not being able to progress to Mythic will kill the guild, why should I be excited about it?

 

On servers where there are plenty of players but nowhere near enough raiders, where we're unlikely to get a connected realm any time soon, Mythic could well kill the raiding scene for good.

 

So aside from arguments about balance, etc, guilds like mine (with high ambitions but a small pool of potential recruits) rightly fear what will happen in WoD. Expansions are dangerous enough to a guild, introducing this extra recruitment requirement is going to make things a nightmare at best, or a reason for me to quit the game at worst.

 

I would love to be excited about Mythic, but the numbers requirement is enough of a headache for us that I genuinely don't want it.

[Archimage 98]

Do anyone know how the stat squish works? Do your stats only squish when you reach lvl 91 or is it a entire lvl 1-100 thing?

Wonder how this will influence Heirloom + Enchanting. 

[Stoove 347]

Do anyone know how the stat squish works? Do your stats only squish when you reach lvl 91 or is it a entire lvl 1-100 thing?

Wonder how this will influence Heirloom + Enchanting. 

 

Everything is scaling together, at all levels, throughout all zones, all gear, all enchanting and professions.

[Astherion 4]

They have until when ever its released (which will probably be around summer of this year) to start recruiting and getting ready.

This is pretty optimistic. I see guilds on my realm already planning on Mythic raiding, getting more players etc but this is one of the silliest ideas ever. First, when WoD comes, there will be a period of levelling, gearing up, raiding normals. This period will take at least 3 months, I guess. So no Mythic 3 months after WoD comes.

 

For the release date, I am 90% sure it will be September-October. First of all, the development is still in very early stage and it's already February. Second, releasing a game during summer is something you don't do. Summer is the weakest marketing period of the year and you never ever release a game during summer. On the other hand, summer is the best time for beta testing.

Third, the PVP season has to end.

 

The realistic prediction is that mythic raiding will start around Jan-Feb 2015 for most guilds.

[Krazyito 521]

Well that optimism was back in November right after blizzcon. I kinda do have a differing opinion now since Beta still hasn't even been announced 

 

And no, Raiding for most guilds will happen in within the first month of release.  there will be HUNDREDS of guilds doing normal mode the 1st week that raids are out, and then the mythic happens the week after.

 

I'm sure the raids will be out at least when its released or the week or 2 after.