Vengeance Demon Hunter 8.3

[Guest summae]

In Rotations, Cooldowns, and Abilities § 5.2 Pain, Fracture is not listed, which generates 25 Pain according to the tooltip.

[Guest Blinken]

In Rotation, it mentions using  Fracture if you will not cap on Pain/Souls  but it does not mention charges. Does this mean it should be used regardless of charges or should if follow the normal keep-one-charge-rolling?

[Valks 2,375]

The "Pain" typo, the Fracture missing in 5.2 issues should be updated shortly. 

On 8/25/2018 at 5:30 PM, Guest Blinken said:

In Rotation, it mentions using  Fracture if you will not cap on Pain/Souls  but it does not mention charges. Does this mean it should be used regardless of charges or should if follow the normal keep-one-charge-rolling?

With how high it is in the priority, you will very, very rarely ever cap on charges. If you are capping on souls/pain, the effect of Fracture is wasted, so it's not worth casting it just to use a charge if you aren't benefiting from it. 

You should just aim to keep your use of Fracture somewhat in-line with Pain/Soul expenditure to ensure that you normally will have it ready when necessary and on-CD when having high Pain/souls.

[Guest Quicken Sigil Talent]

This Talent is actually really good, i don't think you have considered the macro that makes Concentrated Sigils Useless in Comparrison to Quicken Sigils

/cast [@player] Sigil of Flame for example,  itll cast at the player location

This legit makes the first talent Concentrated Sigils useless.

So Kids be a pro and just write the macro and take the talent that lowers the Cool-downs on your interrupts and crowd control abilities

[Guest Shakryn]

If Gaping Maw is such a weak trait, why are the Cephalohide Jacket and Pistoleer's Spaulder's chosen as best for raiding? Is it because of Crystalline Carapace being on the chest and Gemhide being on both? Surely there are better options?

[Guest Kendrid]

8 hours ago, Guest Shakryn said:

If Gaping Maw is such a weak trait, why are the Cephalohide Jacket and Pistoleer's Spaulder's chosen as best for raiding? Is it because of Crystalline Carapace being on the chest and Gemhide being on both? Surely there are better options?

Yeah, having some explanation behind the choice of armor would be nice.

[Guest Boethiah]

Isnt Galecallers boon one of the best trinkets,  with that massive haste boost and just 1min CD?

[Guest LtGenZombie]

In the introduction you state that demon hunters are healed for a percentage of damage taken as of the BFA patch, but further on in spell summary you state that they heal for 348% of attack power. There does seem to be a few mistakes in this guild reading the comments previously....

[Rudy199 8]

If you manage to get a lot of pieces with haste+versa doesn't that make you decent raid tank? Way more uptime on demonspikes and more dr when they are off.

[Guest Deirex]

Gaping Maw seems so good to me, I honestly don't understand the disdain it gets here and on Discord.
I'm currently using 2 gaping maw traits that together add up to a 7000+ shield with each Soul Cleave before missing health bonus. 
With Mythic raid gear and 3 traits it would go up and above 15k.

This routinely accounts for 15-20% of my healing and is fast approaching the same amount of healing that I get from Soul Barrier in a mythic+ dungeon and in Heroic Uldir.



 

[Guest Nixal]

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/vengeance-demon-hunter-pve-tank-spec-builds-talents

seems to have a little bit outdated information (1 sec vs 0.5 sec)

•  Feed the Demon is a passive ability that reduces the remaining cooldown of  Demon Spikes by 1 second for each Soul Fragment you consume.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=218612/feed-the-demon

Consuming a Soul Fragment reduces the remaining cooldown of Demon Spikes by 0.5 sec.

8.0.1 (Wed Sep 05 2018) Build 25902

is it still a good talent with that change?

[Guest Soyou]

Deirex, totaly agree, I have 3 gasping maw (12k shield) + 2 soulmonger (5k  shield). On mm10+ it's ~20-25% + ~10% of my healing. And it's a shield, it absorbs physical AND magic damage. Clearly underestimated trait.

[Guest Deathplea]

Was wondering if there could be a section added to Rotation or Mythic+ about tank kiting since it feels like at higher keys its required for demon hunter more than most other tanks. I know you can out gear the need to kite, but I'm trying very hard to help my teams healer.

[Guest rbasniak]

In the gems section, it says we have to use Kraken's Eye o Agility in one slot and Quick Owseye in all others. Why that? Isn't Agility > Haste, since it gives more dodge and dps?

[Guest Cailo]

In addition to these Soul Fragments, there are also Lesser Soul Fragments. These have a chance to be created when you damage targets with  Shear. They work in exactly the same way, but they heal for 8% of all damage taken in the last 5 sec, with a minimum heal of 1% of your maximum health.

 

As of BFA shear always generates souls.

[Guest Changes with 8.1]

Hey,

'till 8.1 Last Resort was resettet by death. This was changed, the debuff is still there when you die... does someone know anything about this change?

 

 

[Guest Eso]

Think it may have been in the last patch but both myself as a Vengeance DH and our Brewmaster monk did not have switch to our DPS specs to get the agility buff from feasts. I have not yet tested if this is also the case with cauldrons as we don't currently use them.

In regards to the agility gemming, you can't equip more than one because they are unique equipped. Personally I would just rather gem haste througout.

Also I wouldn't want gaping maw over either origination array in uldir or essence sever which quite often grants double souls. Array should be taking about a second off your demon spikes recharge unless haste isn't your top stat for some reason.

Lastly feed the demon is only good on poorly designed(Druids, Monks and DKs can mitigate all the damage, whilst no other tanks can) fights like Fetid where you are maintanking, where I'd use it in combination with gluttony. This does however notably lower your threat output though to the point where your cotank may steal threat when they never normally do.

[Rok 0]

I view Soul Cleave as a wasteful duplicate of an existing superior spell/talent, Spirit Bomb, and I'd like someone to explain to me why this is not the case, if it’s not.

If Spirit Bomb is your top priority after survival, can do more than double the damage and healing — via its debuff on enemies — of Soul Cleave for the same amount of Pain, and can consume all the available Soul Fragments, and should not be used with less than 4 Soul Fragments, keeping in mind that the max is 5, then why would a Vengeance Demon Hunter ever dump 2 Soul Fragments to use Soul Cleave at all, regardless of it being a lower priority, when saving Soul Fragments for Spirit Bomb would be a more efficient use of this resource due to the superior return-on-investment?

Is it to dump Pain? Well, that would’ve been great and would make sense if all that Soul Cleave consumed or cost were Pain, but it unfortunately consumes 2 Soul Fragments, so it overall seems to me at this point like a spell that’s a waste for the most part, rather than an intelligent dump of resources.

And I’m here trying to understand why this is not the case, since Soul Cleave's included in the priority list.

Why should we ever use Soul Cleave? When would it ever make sense if a significantly more efficient and effective higher priority, Spirit Bomb, which is also not on a cooldown, can do a better job with well-spent extra resources (the Soul Fragments)?

Thanks for any convincing explanations of this issue.

[Guest Arnold]

 Unless your in a mythic plus and pulling big packs soul cleave can hold its own now after the buff. Do a few minutes with spirit bomb on a single target dummy and then switch talents to one like gluttony and just flip flop fracture and soul cleave . The dps is just about the same. This works well for raid bosses as it give you an average of 10 seconds/min of free meta and no dps loss. Everyone always give gluttony harsh reviews but using soul cleave every other second or so make fast use of souls and such it procs it all the damn time. Spirit bomb used to be the only way but a few changes and now there are other options depending on what you are doing so dont be afraid to test the water.

[Munkky 4]

On 7/21/2019 at 6:12 AM, Rok said:

I view Soul Cleave as a wasteful duplicate of an existing superior spell/talent, Spirit Bomb, and I'd like someone to explain to me why this is not the case, if it’s not.

If Spirit Bomb is your top priority after survival, can do more than double the damage and healing — via its debuff on enemies — of Soul Cleave for the same amount of Pain, and can consume all the available Soul Fragments, and should not be used with less than 4 Soul Fragments, keeping in mind that the max is 5, then why would a Vengeance Demon Hunter ever dump 2 Soul Fragments to use Soul Cleave at all, regardless of it being a lower priority, when saving Soul Fragments for Spirit Bomb would be a more efficient use of this resource due to the superior return-on-investment?

Is it to dump Pain? Well, that would’ve been great and would make sense if all that Soul Cleave consumed or cost were Pain, but it unfortunately consumes 2 Soul Fragments, so it overall seems to me at this point like a spell that’s a waste for the most part, rather than an intelligent dump of resources.

And I’m here trying to understand why this is not the case, since Soul Cleave's included in the priority list.

Why should we ever use Soul Cleave? When would it ever make sense if a significantly more efficient and effective higher priority, Spirit Bomb, which is also not on a cooldown, can do a better job with well-spent extra resources (the Soul Fragments)?

Thanks for any convincing explanations of this issue.

You simply don't use Soul Cleave to consume souls when going for a Spirit Bomb rotation.

You build souls > press bomb > soul cleave 1-3 times to burn pain > repeat.

 

If you want to go for a more defensive style, then you use Soul Cleave primarily and use Bomb for the 5 soul consumption after a big hit. Ideally maintaining atleast 3 souls and 30 pain.

[Rok 0]

12 hours ago, Munkky said:

You simply don't use Soul Cleave to consume souls when going for a Spirit Bomb rotation.

You build souls > press bomb > soul cleave 1-3 times to burn pain > repeat.

 

If you want to go for a more defensive style, then you use Soul Cleave primarily and use Bomb for the 5 soul consumption after a big hit. Ideally maintaining atleast 3 souls and 30 pain.

I see what you mean, Munkky. This does at least make the priority list in your guide a bit clearer, 'cause I wasn't even sure how many Soul Cleaves you recommend, or even a range. However, the problem I still have is that simulations say that Spirit Bomb does much better damage and healing than Soul Cleave, they're both not on a cooldown, so you can spam Spirit Bomb as long as you have Pain and Soul Fragments, and Soul Cleave, which does less, won't just burn Pain but also take 2 Soul Fragments away from your next use of Spirit Bomb. So I just can't see the logic of using Soul Cleave at all when you opt for Spirit Bomb as a talent. Do you see what I mean here?

If Blizzard changes Soul Cleave so that it only uses Pain, then what you say would be utterly perfect and I'd fully understand the importance of including Soul Cleave in your rotations. However, those 2 Soul Fragments it consumes just make me go like, "No, thanks, I'll save them for Spirit Bomb."

[jast56 0]

Regarding Azerite traits and Essences, this guide is extremely unreliable. Like legitimately trolling inexperienced players. Case in point: 3x Revel is perhaps the worst trait to stack of any of the options.

Revel is literally ~1000 HPS when used on cooldown, and it is inflexible, requiring you to attack the target, and ONLY triggering directly after your Fiery Brand ends, which should be one of your safest recovery periods. Did I mention that it's only 1000 HPS when used on cooldown? Are you really using a strong defensive cooldown indiscriminately for what might make up at most 5% of your self healing (and much less valuable when other sources of healing are factored in)? And it doesn't even add any damage. It's a tiny increase to survival when using more than 1x Revel (which is ACTUALLY useful). Even stacking more than one Hour of Reaping generally provides a stronger healing increase over the course of a fight.

The author also recommends Burning Soul for Mythic plus. Do you realize how infrequently there are magic buffs to purge? Have you even been in a Mythic plus? Even when this trait activates, it's nothing special.

He then recommends Anima of Death as a top 2 Major essence. This self healing is nearly completely useless for Vengeance. We don't need a cooldown that heals us. We need cooldowns that reduce the damage we take. The major issue with this "tier list", with respect to the Anima of Death, is that there is no distinction made between Raiding and Mythic plus. In Raids this Essence is effectively useless, and only gets worse in Mythic Raiding. The only time this trait is good is for its damage output in a Mythic Plus or other extremely niche situations, and the minor attached is barely worth mentioning. The Major essence DOES provide a great increase to our damage, though. But it offers nearly no defensive benefit (because of our already extremely high self-healing potential), and is on a two-minute cooldown. This will be weighed heavily against more defensive Essences that could instead facilitate pulling extra mobs or packs in a dungeon, by ACTUALLY helping the tank do his primary job. In Mythic Plus, this CAN, however, be the difference between completing keys within the time limit, or missing by seconds.

 

**I am not trying to understate the importance of any DPS contribution in Mythic plus, but capability for bigger pulls will also lead to more damage. Anima is definitely a contender for the top Mythic plus major Essence, depending on weekly affixes and group composition meta.**

 

Best minor? Null Barrier? Sarcasm: Who cares if 90% of the content you're currently in does no consistent magic damage, right? He then goes on to say it is "used in all content most of the time". Dude. It's another 1500 HPS AT BEST. Who cares. Again, only used for damage purposes (where it can be situationally quite strong, though the author makes no mention of this).

As for the second Minor power: "The second Minor does not matter." I do not think I need to expand upon this one, though it IS in the "easy mode" section, so it's not as big of a deal to be... completely wrong.

 

I've primarily skimmed through the Essence and Azerite sections, and I'm sure the other pages have more-or-less useful advice, but the Essence and Azerite sections have no business even pretending to be a reliable or helpful source, and instead actually do a disservice to the Vengeance Demon Hunter community. I understand that this information will be updated at some point, but this "guide" is so far off-base that it's likely better to simply choose Essences you enjoy playing with, and remove the Essence section entirely.

Edited August 11, 2019 by jast56

[Guest Greenbearr]

This guide makes sense for 8.1.5. However, with the DH reworked in 8.2, it's totally out of date. Meta is now a very strong ability. Using Vision of Perfection as your major, Anemia of life as your minor slot, and taking gluttony over spirit bomb is a massive increase in survivability. If DPS is your goal, then spirit bomb 100% of the time. With gluttony, taking Void Reaver is a great addition as you can keep the uptime to near 100% and using any of your abilities has a chance to proc or EXTEND the duration of Meta. Testing out this build on tanking dummies yields a very easy to reach 99 stacks on a dungeon tank dummy and 62 stacks on the raid tank dummy. Don't loose your mind if you're thinking "dummies don't translate to dungeons/raid". I get it, but it does provide insight into survivability and DPS in a more realistic situation instead of a sim that assumes you're just dpsing patchwork non-stop without defensives. Meta procs so often that you can count on it to save you every time. And during Meta, you fracture so many souls from your target that you heal to full by the time the 5 secs passes up. I've easily extended my Meta to over 30 sec with the non-stop procs between gluttony and VoP.

[Guest Jason.]

On 8/12/2019 at 5:18 PM, Guest Greenbearr said:

This guide makes sense for 8.1.5. However, with the DH reworked in 8.2, it's totally out of date. Meta is now a very strong ability. Using Vision of Perfection as your major, Anemia of life as your minor slot, and taking gluttony over spirit bomb is a massive increase in survivability. If DPS is your goal, then spirit bomb 100% of the time. With gluttony, taking Void Reaver is a great addition as you can keep the uptime to near 100% and using any of your abilities has a chance to proc or EXTEND the duration of Meta. Testing out this build on tanking dummies yields a very easy to reach 99 stacks on a dungeon tank dummy and 62 stacks on the raid tank dummy. Don't loose your mind if you're thinking "dummies don't translate to dungeons/raid". I get it, but it does provide insight into survivability and DPS in a more realistic situation instead of a sim that assumes you're just dpsing patchwork non-stop without defensives. Meta procs so often that you can count on it to save you every time. And during Meta, you fracture so many souls from your target that you heal to full by the time the 5 secs passes up. I've easily extended my Meta to over 30 sec with the non-stop procs between gluttony and VoP.

The only issue with this is that you will never hold agro in a raid scenario the other tank and dps will rip agro of you in no time running this build I have tried it and it fails miserably. 

[Guest Dazing]

Quote

2. Not Using Defensive Cooldowns Reactively

Should probably be "Using Defensive Cooldowns Reactivly" or "Not Using Defensive Cooldowns Proactively"