Frost Mage 8.3

[Sharess 0]

Hey fellow Frosties, 

I've grown increasingly frustrated with the lackluster play style of Arcane and the continually lower numbers of Fire and decided to come back to the colder side of life. 

That said I was wondering if the website for https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#mage_frost shows accurate best Trinkets/Azerite traits for frost. 

Also do any trinkets for Frost work together better than others (ie combo of 2 trinkets working for a bigger number vs raw numbers of them individually)? 

 

Also I heard that the Frost Elemental with water elemental's Freeze no longer shattering that it's best to take Lonely Winter over Bone Chilling, but  I see some mages (like Kuni) still have Bone Chilling vs Lonely Winter. Is this purely a 'preference' or are you finding some returns, although diminishing from the Freeze/Shatter? 

 

Thanks!  

Edited September 14, 2018 by Sharess
Removed a redundant Q

[Kuni 28]

On 9/12/2018 at 4:40 AM, Guest raoul said:

SO I dont know what is up with my pawn. playing as a frost mage whenever I get a gear with Vers It will always show up as the highest % upgrade. THis is wrong? Am i not supposed to get crit/haste/mast?

Assuming you've used your current weights, it's entirely possible. It's the issue with stacking stats, others raise in relative value. It's also why I suggest just simming gear as you get it rather than giving a static stat priority, things will shift around even with a single piece of gear.

22 hours ago, Guest Bruwh said:

Engineer goggles having 2 Overwhelming Power, whats going on? BS or something new coming?

Not sure what this has to do with the guide, but no, they have Overwhelming Power/Heed My Call/Unstable Flames.

4 hours ago, Sharess said:

Hey fellow Frosties, 

I've grown increasingly frustrated with the lackluster play style of Arcane and the continually lower numbers of Fire and decided to come back to the colder side of life. 

That said I was wondering if the website for https://bloodmallet.com/index.html#mage_frost shows accurate best Trinkets/Azerite traits for frost. 

Also do any trinkets for Frost work together better than others (ie combo of 2 trinkets working for a bigger number vs raw numbers of them individually)? 

 

Also I heard that the Frost Elemental with water elemental's Freeze no longer shattering that it's best to take Lonely Winter over Bone Chilling, but  I see some mages (like Kuni) still have Bone Chilling vs Lonely Winter. Is this purely a 'preference' or are you finding some returns, although diminishing from the Freeze/Shatter? 

 

Thanks!  

Bloodmallet is accurate, I actually have embeds from there in the guide as it's simply SimC outputs with a fancy front end, but please understand how to read the ilvl differences in the trinket lists. It's not a raw ranking list, you have to check what ilvl on the bar you're at versus your target trinket. If in doubt, sim any that you loot. I've had one instance of a trinket not following Bloodmallet's charts, although the actual difference was sub-50 DPS.

There's no interesting overlapping effects, no. Leyshock's is just good in general because Frost keeps 100% uptime on all four buffs, and combos well with any other trinket.

Water Elemental's Freeze still Shatters spells, it just doesn't generate Fingers of Frost anymore. That said, single target, they're close enough that it's preference, where AoE prefers Bone Chilling due to Bone Chilling actually increasing AoE's damage and the aforementioned Shattering of spells, notably most of Comet Storm.

[Saffina 1]

Currently my stats are

and my weights are from my most recent sim

To me i should be getting a lot more haste because 13% feels extremly low, but simc thinks Crit is still worth more, im unfure  where to really go from here.

[Kuni 28]

I mean, 1.5 DPS/point vs 1.49 DPS/point is pretty close. If you want more Haste, run a bit more. It'll drop the weight though, be warned.

[Setokaiba 0]

Hey,

I got a question on Blizzard (without freezing rain) - guide says cast it on 3+ targets, but multiple people, including simC actually saying 2+?

What is the latest status on that? On one hand - dmg from blizzard on 2 targets makes sense, but on the other hand it's 1 icicle!

thanks

[Kuni 28]

So it's actually listed in two spots. Blizzard on 3 targets out-prioritizes Ice Lance, where Blizzard on 2 is just a step above Frostbolt.

[Setokaiba 0]

12 hours ago, Kuni said:

So it's actually listed in two spots. Blizzard on 3 targets out-prioritizes Ice Lance, where Blizzard on 2 is just a step above Frostbolt.

Oh yeh, I see it now! thanks a lot ?

[Sharess 0]

Sorry for the probably newbie question. In the Gem/Enchant section it references when to use gems etc.

 

Quote

1. Gems for Frost Mage

You should use  Kraken's Eye of Intellect in one socket, and  Deadly Amberblaze (or the cheaper  Deadly Solstone) in all other sockets.

Why would you not use Kraken in multiple sockets since INT statweight outweighs Crit by roughly .30-40? And does it depend what socket you want to use it in? 

 

Also Comet Storm has consistently been simming higher than Splitting Ice unless there are only 2 targets in the sim. Anything above 2 targets and it says Splitting Ice is a dps loss over Comet Storm. 

 

I've been getting into doing 7-10+ Mythics and found that the pull timers are quite off though as Comet Storm and Frozen orb are often not up for the next pack as it dies too quickly. Would you recommend holding Frozen Orb until a larger pack of 4-6 vs blowing it on a pack of 3-4? Or Just use it when its up unless close to death of the pack?  Also have Kuni or other Frosties found that they prefer Splitting Ice during high M+ or Comet Storm?

Edited September 21, 2018 by Sharess

[Kuni 28]

11 hours ago, Sharess said:

Why would you not use Kraken in multiple sockets since INT statweight outweighs Crit by roughly .30-40? And does it depend what socket you want to use it in? 

 

Also Comet Storm has consistently been simming higher than Splitting Ice unless there are only 2 targets in the sim. Anything above 2 targets and it says Splitting Ice is a dps loss over Comet Storm. 

 

I've been getting into doing 7-10+ Mythics and found that the pull timers are quite off though as Comet Storm and Frozen orb are often not up for the next pack as it dies too quickly. Would you recommend holding Frozen Orb until a larger pack of 4-6 vs blowing it on a pack of 3-4? Or Just use it when its up unless close to death of the pack?  Also have Kuni or other Frosties found that they prefer Splitting Ice during high M+ or Comet Storm?

Kraken's Eyes are unique-equipped, meaning you can only have one equipped at a time. If you could equip multiple, you 100% would.

I'm slightly curious as to the details of what you're running for 3+ target sims, as Splitting Ice shows a ~6% gain over Comet Storm on 3 sustained for me on both my own and the T22 profile.

I've been using Orb regardless of pack size unless they're close to death. As to Comet Storm vs Splitting Ice, it's a bit of a personal call. I've run the same key on the same week and wished for a different talent based entirely on group composition. A general pugging suggestion would be Comet Storm, as you can't anticipate great AoE in pugs.

I think the only exception to this is King's Rest. It really likes Splitting Ice due to the sheer number of root-immune mobs and smaller 2-3 mob pulls. You miss out on the ooze AoE before the second boss, but you gain superior raptor cleave on the last boss.

[Sharess 0]

Again you rock Kuni, I thought that was how the Kraken Eye gem worked too but had to ask to be sure, been out of the game a while.

Thanks for the suggestion re Kings Rest, and I have found the same, sometimes i wish i had comet storm and other times i wish i had splitting ice. Thanks for making me not feel completely alone there. 

[Saffina 1]

Simming seems to be quite a nightmare this expansion.

 

With these stats

SImcraft says

and raidbot says

simcraft says im doing 13.7kdps and raidbot says im doing 14k dps

 

who do i trust for these weights?

[Kuni 28]

6 hours ago, Saffina said:

who do i trust for these weights?

So Raidbots is literally SimulationCraft with a fancy front-end, and automatically updated to the current build every day. The differences likely stem from either different versions involved, or different settings. Without access to the results pages from both, I cannot tell you why.

Doing this blind, I would trust Raidbots more, simply because it is most likely the current version. If you wish to dig further, I would double check build number. It should be found at the top of the results page, called "git build":

Where Raidbots should tell you on either the results page or if you click the full HTML report link:

You want both git build numbers to match. Clicking them should bring you to a page that will tell you when the changes for that build were made. Whichever is newer is the one you trust more.

[Guest Tenbatsü]

Also, if you have Blizzard Keybound,  (this also works for every other aoe spell IE Flamestrike, or healing AOE Like Resto Shaman's Healing Rain)

Âlso works for pet aoe abilities like Water Elemental's Freeze

/cast [@cursor] Blizzard
/cast [@cursor] Freeze

For Remove Curse, in case you'd ever need it, this could also be useful (This is also perfect for healers)

/cast [@mouseover] Remove Curse

can save you some time :)

 

[Kuni 28]

I could have sworn I had those listed, along with a couple others. Huh. Will fix, thanks.

[Guest Aldaras]

Is Mr. Robot useful at all any more?  Or was it ever?  lol

I ask because even though my stats are very similar to the Saffina a few posts up, Mr. Robot says I should gem and enchant for haste.  Am I correct that crit is always, ALWAYS, the best stat below 33%?  Or at least up to 30%+, then use sims to decide.  

And it also tells me to use vers enchant on my wep.  I had been using torrent of elements, thought that was the go to wep enchant.  No?  

As for Raidbots it tells me mastery is my most valuable stat for upgrades.  Umm, no, don't think so.  

[Kuni 28]

20 hours ago, Guest Aldaras said:

Is Mr. Robot useful at all any more?  Or was it ever?  lol

I ask because even though my stats are very similar to the Saffina a few posts up, Mr. Robot says I should gem and enchant for haste.  Am I correct that crit is always, ALWAYS, the best stat below 33%?  Or at least up to 30%+, then use sims to decide.  

And it also tells me to use vers enchant on my wep.  I had been using torrent of elements, thought that was the go to wep enchant.  No?  

As for Raidbots it tells me mastery is my most valuable stat for upgrades.  Umm, no, don't think so.  

Apologies for the wall of text.

No, it hasn't been useful for a very long time. They were a nice reforge calculator back in MoP, but since the removal of reforging, they've been irrelevant. And before certain people come to their defense: when you have mechanics wrong in your simulator that were even documented in patch notes, to say absolutely nothing of the deep dive stuff, you are useless as a simulator. When those same errors persist for over 3 months after launch, I honestly don't know what to tell you other than shutter the project and stop spreading misinformation.

Anyway, that said: Crit will not always be the best stat before cap. If you stack it to the exclusion of all others, you're going to end up in a situation where the relative value of it is lower than adding more of another stat. I'm personally riding that line right now, where if I changed a piece or two, Versatility would overtake Crit's value:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/92q51H8ZzXBf75ivYEWz7U

What is meant by the guide, and perhaps I should clarify this further in the guide, is that the relative value of Crit doesn't change until you hit Shatter cap due to how SimC determines stat weights, but that doesn't mean that it is immutably the best stat and you should reach 33.34% without question. What I mean is that if you run a simulation for stat weights, and you're near the cap, since a simulation is simply an average of however many iterations you told it to run, and the method by which stat weights are determined is not by +1 to a single stat, but by +238 (3.5 times the amount of Haste needed for 1%), you're going to see the stat weight number gradually decrease as you approach cap, and that is incorrect and simply an artifact. This graph best demonstrates the actual effect. Note that the slope before and after Shatter cap change, but there is no gradual curve between the two. It is sudden.

The numerical stat weight spat out falsely decreases gradually as you approach, but that is simply because more and more percent of the simulations are being run on that lower slope, producing what looks like a gradual effect.

Now, honestly, the practical difference between blindly following the stat weight given to you and the actual pre-cap stat weight is so minuscule as to be pointless, but it is something that exists, and people who wish to know should be told. Again, I'm likely to go and update that section with a large clarification regarding all of this, and apologize for the confusion involved.

The weapon enchant choice is slightly variable. The practical difference between them is generally within margin of error and will vary ever so slightly depending on current gear. Torrent is practical both because it is the top enchant we see on the profile sets we crafted, and seemingly it is never behind by more than 0.2%. Because enchant selection can change with any given upgrade, it's a good baseline to use without having to drop gold or materials on re-enchanting it every few days.

I would very much be interested in seeing that Raidbots result. Link it, if you would?

[cross34 0]

How are mages at the moment for mythic? Do you have to switch between frost and arcane depending on the encounter? Hence needing 2 sets of azerite gear

[Valks 2,375]

4 hours ago, cross34 said:

How are mages at the moment for mythic? Do you have to switch between frost and arcane depending on the encounter? Hence needing 2 sets of azerite gear

Taloc and Fetid are the only 2 bosses where you'll really wish you were Arcane, but both can definitely be killed as Frost. G'huun is seeing Fire more than Arcane or Frost.

[jaxmirox 0]

Found a new macro combination.  Not sure if someone has listed this anywhere. (newb frost mage)

 

This gets the most out of your comet storm and shatter with your pet's freeze

/cast comet storm

/cast [@cursor] freeze

 

I'm not a one button spammer type of guy, but I like keeping my keybinds tidy.

[Guest Kóngurinn]

3 hours ago, jaxmirox said:

Found a new macro combination.  Not sure if someone has listed this anywhere. (newb frost mage)

 

This gets the most out of your comet storm and shatter with your pet's freeze

/cast comet storm

/cast [@cursor] freeze

 

I'm not a one button spammer type of guy, but I like keeping my keybinds tidy.

Thanks for posting that macro, but I think I might have to keep pet freeze as well on a separate keybind just for the cc purpose of it.

[Kuni 28]

It's also sub-optimal since Comets fall 1 second after cast, and Freeze breaks in 0.4s after the first 0.5s when under heavy damage.

[Guest Asharak]

Heelo there,

I need to ask, since I finally got 3 stacks of the Winter's Reach trait, and finally realized what it means with the 50% of first & 75% of second stack I hope. Wasn't clear from the desc.
So then, if I have 5500 + 4800 + 4800 dmg bonus for hardcasted Flurry with proc (-base dmg), in the end it will add 5500 + 2400 + 1200 = 9100 dmg/hit. 
Is there any specific info why the second trait stack give only 50% of the dmg, and the third 75% as bonus per missile hit? Can't find anything over the internet about this and I wonder why it works like that.

[Kuni 28]

20 hours ago, Guest Asharak said:

 

Is there any specific info why the second trait stack give only 50% of the dmg, and the third 75% as bonus per missile hit? Can't find anything over the internet about this and I wonder why it works like that.

So having it be entirely linear is a bad time. Flurry hard cast is really, REALLY, not a good idea on Blizz's end. So the two options were: do we make it balanced around one trait, effectively bringing it up from -4% to 3% as intended, but then have 3 stacked traits be functionally +17% rather than +9%, or do we have them balanced around 3 stacked traits at +9%? Obviously the answer is the latter, but that required a non-linear answer. Instead they basically gave it +6% on first trait, and +3% on stacks 2 and 3. The problem is, the tooltip's a bit weird on it. It had, over the course of like 2 weeks, changed 4 times, and I seem to have let it slip through the cracks in my updates. Good catch.

Right now, 1 stack will grant tooltip value to the spell. 2 stacks will provide (bonus damage total*.75) to the spell. I don't have access to a third Winter's Reach, but it should grant (total*.667). Remember that when checking values yourself, you have to account for the fact we have a 24% damage penalty on our spec aura. You'll have to manually calculate it and then compare to observed values. So (SP*.316+(total damage*.667))*vers*.76 if you're checking them on your end with all 3 traits. Keep in mind that this is discounting anything like Bone Chilling, Incanter's Flow, and any given trinket/weapon procs.

It's a bad trait from a design aspect, and I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if it changes in 8.1.

[Siltar 0]

for consumables it has no changes for patch 8.1. Might want to add Boralus Blood Sausage. At 85 primary stat this is better than the cheaper feast and crit food

[Kuni 28]

On 12/25/2018 at 1:57 PM, Siltar said:

for consumables it has no changes for patch 8.1. Might want to add Boralus Blood Sausage. At 85 primary stat this is better than the cheaper feast and crit food

Correct. I was out of town during most of PTR and forgot about that addition. It should be updated with it whenever the page is regenerated. Thanks!