Brewmaster Monk 8.3

[Valks 2,375]

This thread is for comments about our Brewmaster Monk guide.

[Guest Elam]

Hey, just a quick comment about the Brewmaster stats page: Stats are still listed with the 14.3% haste soft cap that GCD locks you when using Blackout Combo with the reasoning given that the stats are based on suggested builds utilizing BoC. However, both suggested builds in the talents section eschew BoC for High Tolerance. I'm not sure myself how that changes the stat priority, but I just wanted to let y'all know that the two pages disagreed with one another on the suggested final talent.

[Valks 2,375]

24 minutes ago, Guest Elam said:

Hey, just a quick comment about the Brewmaster stats page: Stats are still listed with the 14.3% haste soft cap that GCD locks you when using Blackout Combo with the reasoning given that the stats are based on suggested builds utilizing BoC. However, both suggested builds in the talents section eschew BoC for High Tolerance. I'm not sure myself how that changes the stat priority, but I just wanted to let y'all know that the two pages disagreed with one another on the suggested final talent.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll let the writer know and get it fixed!

[Brutalis 165]

Quote

Less Self sufficient than other tanks.

^

Understatement of the year right there. Pulling two mobs while doing WQ on Argus means I end the fight with 50% health, meanwhile I can pull five and end the fight at full health as a DH. They also lose pretty much every 1v1 except against healers. It just doesn't feel tanky at all.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Brutalis

[Valks 2,375]

9 minutes ago, Brutalis said:

^

Understatement of the year right there. Pulling two mobs while doing WQ on Argus means I end the fight with 50% health, meanwhile I can pull five and end the fight at full health as a DH. They also lose pretty much every 1v1 except against healers. It just doesn't feel tanky at all.

Seems that tanks are all in a strange place at the moment (4-tanking Hounds, how is this a thing?) - I'm sure there'll be some tanking balance passes coming.

[Brutalis 165]

23 minutes ago, Blainie said:

Seems that tanks are all in a strange place at the moment (4-tanking Hounds, how is this a thing?) - I'm sure there'll be some tanking balance passes coming.

It's not as if they had the PTR and Beta to test these things... Oh, wait.

[Valks 2,375]

1 hour ago, Brutalis said:

It's not as if they had the PTR and Beta to test these things... Oh, wait.

The problem is that they were tested for BfA - things were balanced to be ready for when we hit 120, not for the fights in Antorus or things on Argus. Pre-patch is always a really odd time for balance because of this.

[Brutalis 165]

1 hour ago, Blainie said:

The problem is that they were tested for BfA - things were balanced to be ready for when we hit 120, not for the fights in Antorus or things on Argus. Pre-patch is always a really odd time for balance because of this.

Do you think BrM is actually balanced and will fair just as well in the first BFA raids as the other tanks then? I realise pre-patch is always a bit whacky for balance but I just cannot believe BrM is as good at 120 as the other tanks.

I remember in the Legion pre-patch, when Assa rogue's Exsanguinate increased bleed speed by 400%. There's no way on Earth that that would have been balanced for Legion's endgame yet it made it to live and I think this will be the same with BrM.

[Valks 2,375]

2 hours ago, Brutalis said:

Do you think BrM is actually balanced and will fair just as well in the first BFA raids as the other tanks then? I realise pre-patch is always a bit whacky for balance but I just cannot believe BrM is as good at 120 as the other tanks.

I remember in the Legion pre-patch, when Assa rogue's Exsanguinate increased bleed speed by 400%. There's no way on Earth that that would have been balanced for Legion's endgame yet it made it to live and I think this will be the same with BrM.

AFAIK, Brew is in a really good place at 120 - they suck at self sustain, but they're most likely going to be found in most raid groups. We're just in a very tricky spot in the pre-patch with all tanks. Last night, playing as a Blood DK, we wiped twice on Hounds Mythic and then just went with the 4-tank strategy. It's pretty crazy.

[quotey 3]

On 7/19/2018 at 3:55 PM, Brutalis said:

Do you think BrM is actually balanced and will fair just as well in the first BFA raids as the other tanks then? I realise pre-patch is always a bit whacky for balance but I just cannot believe BrM is as good at 120 as the other tanks.

I remember in the Legion pre-patch, when Assa rogue's Exsanguinate increased bleed speed by 400%. There's no way on Earth that that would have been balanced for Legion's endgame yet it made it to live and I think this will be the same with BrM.

So I don't go into this into the guide because it's just prepatch, but we have 2 really great traits that add a giant amount of mastery and a passive heal when we take damage from most dungeon mobs (and anything more than that obviously). They're both part of the new Azerite system though. Once you start getting pieces of gear with those it'll be much better, though it will take a while depending on playtime and luck. There are other Azerite traits that are OK too, and I'm sure a lot of classes are missing them dearly.

I am very confident that Brewmaster will be great at 120 in raids and dungeons, but there's certainly a shock going from our large amounts of Ox orbs, or purify healing with legendaries to relying on healers more (but all tanks are feeling this). 

The other thing is just that Blizzard opens prepatch raids with little tuning since NOONE wants to do those on the PTR because we're doing them on live so much already! The stats and damage values are all set for 120 and the few weeks of some specs being wildly OP and some being terrible... well we just have to live with it I guess.

Next guide update coming soon- I made a mistake on the talent the soul ring gives or it got hotfixed, and I will be changing the mythic boss strategies after we raid on Sunday to perhaps emphasize defense more (from what I've heard they're rough).

[Guest Keyen]

I'm sceptical about if Black Ox Brew is really that ahead of Light Brewing. I did some calculations, and while it's not that in depth, it showed me the amount of brews gained is roughly the same at ~25% haste (= 10-13% haste required on equipment with High tolerance). I may have forgot something, but I don't think so.

BOB however forces the use of multiple brews when they may not be required (meaning you may have to use Ironskin brew with over 14s remaining resulting in duration loss, or purifying brew with a low amount of stagger). That's never the case with light brewing since you can easily pool brews charges until you need them.

 

What did I really miss? 

[quotey 3]

6 hours ago, Guest Keyen said:

I'm sceptical about if Black Ox Brew...

You're mostly right, LB is now only about 1purify/minute behind BoB with optimal usage. Then any downtime (this is a big thing in M+) lowers the gap to the point there'll certainly be times it's worth taking LB. In situations where you can sustain dealing damage for 2 minutes, BoB is going to be great with that just because of the extra energy.

So yeah, I'll be changing the guide to be more friendly to LB with tommorow's update- frankly I don't do enough M+ and forget about stuff like that, but with the expansion launch it'll be right back in. I'm just reactively dismissive of it because of previous expansions which is a stupid thing.

There's actually a spreadsheet for this that BrewingScribe from the monk discord made, if you're interested in playing about with numbers (hit File -> Make a Copy to edit it). It doesn't simulate downtime so you can't look at stuff like that to close the gap. IIRC LB equals BoB in brew generation at like.... 50% haste?

Thanks for the comments!

[Guest Keyen]

Well, I checked the spreadsheet (which is much better than the thing I did, thanks for sharing), and once you put the setup to "realistic" (since the average is using 3 brews per cast which is impossible and still use the old cd of 90s), the difference is very low. For instance, I put 3 min as a test (since the spreadsheet ask for >90s on Realistic setup), and with 10% haste, you have 29.21 charges for LB and 29.63 for BOB (0.14 less charges per min). With 16% haste, LW is ahead, and is much more smooth than BOB.

 

[Guest Keyen]

Sorry for the double post, I can't edit as a Guest. 

I did notice that the "Average" or "Realistic" don't affect the fact BOB almost never give 3 brews (contrary to what I said before, it only affect if the timer have to wait for a rounded value to increase the amount of BOB used). It will give between 2 and 3 brews (since if you use it when there is only 1s remaining (for instance) on the next charge, you don't gain 3 charges, but 2,06~ charges, which is much lower).

 

Basically, the spreadsheet doesn't take in account (currently):

-The fact you don't get three full charges of brews, but something between 2 and 3

-The fact you have to waste some charges (or parts of charges) because you have to use brews just before or right after a BOB.

-The fact BOB is another CD you have to manage extremely closely.

 

And despite that, the difference between LB and BOB is small.

 

 

[quotey 3]

Yeah changing between Avg/Realistic makes a giant difference. I'll ask the exact difference between them, but I imagine it will ocasionally miss abilities or add longer gaps between them to simulate normal play and downtime. And yeah, the sudden changes in BoB value isn't really simulated- it just averages it out across the entire duration so the charges come as a trickle.

LB looking more interesting every post! 

I've updated the guide, fixing the soul ring description and changing boss talent reccomendations accordingly. Light Brewing has also had its reccomendation and description changed (thanks Keyen!). Sims are starting to be looked at, so in the near future there should be more accurate stats for DPS (spoilers- Vers=Crit > Mastery >>>>> Haste).

[DaltonIsPanda 18]

Is there an explanation to why you're ONLY supposed to used Blackout Combo buffs with Tiger Strike? Are the other options that ineffectual?

[quotey 3]

Hey. The assumption I run with is that when you’re running BoC you’re doing it for DPS. Technically you could use it on keg smash if you were a few seconds away from a vital brew but that’s such an edge case. BoF comboing isn’t a DPS increase and the downtime is minimal. 

As for ISB it’s much more interesting. It’s good for short periods of extremely high damage followed by long stretches of low damage, and short times when you can take no healing. There were 3 that I can remember (ilgynoth tentacles, demon within soul tend, varimathras). 

The problem is when you tell people this they hurt themselves by using it in inappropriate situations so my plan is to only talk about it’s usage on specific bosses (I had it on various before I realised guard makes it redundant). 

It’s possible that it would be better to talk about it in the T7 talent section but I’m unsure. What do you (or any other readers!) think. 

[DaltonIsPanda 18]

1 hour ago, quotey said:

It’s possible that it would be better to talk about it in the T7 talent section but I’m unsure. What do you (or any other readers!) think. 

I think it would be very helpful!

[quotey 3]

The most recent update added a page on Azerite traits, which should get you used to what they are roughly. It does not include every trait or a definitive ranking (I have put some rough ideas on that) because they WILL change before release- Blizzard works up until the buzzer and changed a lot of values TODAY!

I will wait until launch to put out the blackout combo play as it could include some relevant examples. Thanks to everyone for the comments so far- seriously!

[quotey 3]

Latest update is for BfA launch! Too many changes to list but I got the Blackout Combo explanations in, added lots of info about Azerite traits and gear, and a short FAQ section that I'm sure I'll expand as time goes on.

Launch is probably going to change all our stuff no doubt, and will come with dungeon tips and whatever else I think of if I can tear myself away from the game.

[Guest Keyen]

Hey, another two commentaries:

1) about this sentence "If you decide to use  Pressure Point, you should recognize that there is a risk that Blizzard will nerf the trait and are unlikely to allow you to change the choice on your item."

Even if they nerf Pressure point, you can already change the choice of pieces of azerite. There is a NPC for that in the capital. So you can do that without worries. On top of that, yesterday hotfix was a step into allowing easier trans -spec traits gearing (you can now select traits which aren't from your spec directly).

 

2) About Guard and High Tolerance. Currently, HT is the "go to", while guard has a "?". I do believe the opposite (if not a outright X for HT) should be done. Simply because the gain from HT is very low. With 4200 agi, HT and ISB, you have 82% stagger. With Guard instead, you are at 76.5% stagger.

 

In the completely impossible world where you can purify every damage once when it's coming, it means you takes 2.75% less damage. Guard, in the same time, will absorb 60K damage. For HT reduce more damage than guard in this situation, you have to take over 2100K damage in 30s, or over 72K dps. Even if we are purifying twice every damage we take, it's around 1454K damage taken every 30s, or 50K dps.

 

Of course, in the real world, you don't purify as often, and then, the increased stagger doesn't provide a big damage reduction from higher purify.

 

While the haste for HT is not counted (but it's the worst stat for BM), Guard has also four more advantages:

1)It acts as a mini CD. It means you can use when you need it in particular situation (but you talked about that in the guide). It's great in dungeon few sec after the pull, so you are not taking

2) While HT is 100% useless when the other tank has the aggro, Guard keep recharging during this time, and will be available immediately, or soon after you taunt back. So if you have to switch every 15s (for instance), you have to compare guard to HT in a 15s window, which increase the gap even more.

3)HT means you have to purify more (or else, it's a dead talent which doesn't reduce damage at all). Guard, in the other hand, allow you to purify less (Since you won't have to purify these 60K stagger damage). It's like a free purifying used at 120K stagger every 30s. You will have more purifying charges for when it really matters.

4) HT also reduce the effectiveness of Fortifying Brew. With HT, you go from 82% to 87% (Not sure if there is a cap at 85%, can't check right now), or +5% stagger. With Guard, you go from 76,5 to 83% (or +6,5%).

 

I doubt I will ever switch back to HT. 

[Guest Vombalyst]

Hey there, I'm a returning player (only played vanilla) and I fell in love with the BRM spec. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask my question but I tried solving my problem for the past few days now and I can't seem to get it solved. So apologies in advance if I'm not in the right place!

Now I've downloaded WeakAuras solely for the suggested string from Mink to show my amount of staggered damage. When I open the WA options interface everything seems in order but it doesn't show when I'm in combat. When I hit the escape button and immediately go to the AddOns button (also using ElvUI if that makes any difference btw) it shows WA neatly between the few other addons I got installed. But when I go to Interface > AddOns it's not there. I don't know if this makes any difference since I'm not experienced with WA.

 

I don't know what I'm doing wrong here and I really would like Mink's string to work for me ^^ 

 

Again apologies if my question is in the wrong place but I'm getting pretty desperate in getting this thing to work.

[quotey 3]

On 8/24/2018 at 7:36 PM, Guest Keyen said:

Hey, another two commentaries:

1) about this sentence "If you decide to use  Pressure Point, you should recognize that there is a risk that Blizzard will nerf the trait and are unlikely to allow you to change the choice on your item."

 

2) About Guard and High Tolerance. Currently, HT is the "go to", while guard has a "?". I do believe the opposite (if not a outright X for HT) should be done. Simply because the gain from HT is very low. With 4200 agi, HT and ISB, you have 82% stagger. With Guard instead, you are at 76.5% stagger.

 

1) You're right! Kind of dumb of me to miss that, but I'm bloody happy it's a thing... since Pressure Point just got a 60% nerf!

2) Guard vs HT- ok this might be long.

The thing that matters really for tanks is EHP, the amount of damage you can actually take before dying over a short period. Guard doesn't increase this much wheras HT is tailored to do it. I really reccomend you read this article on Peak of Serenity, which goes into much more depth than I can in a comment section. Frankly it's silly that I don't espouse this concept in the guide proper, and I will look to find a visible place for it in the future.

The idea that you have to purify more with HT is slightly flawed. By putting more damage into the stagger pool, a single purify is actually more powerful. Consider a 10k damage melee (and a 50% purify because the numbers are easier to do in my head). HT gives us a stagger pool of 8200 thus 4100 purified with 4100 left; Guard gives 7650 pool with 3825 purified. Thus our total damage taken in this scenario is (4100+1800)= 5900 with HT, versus 6175. So with any amount of purifies you will take less damage (versus never using Guard)! You don't need to purify more with HT- but you get some haste so you can.

(An aside on the Haste: haste is crap the haste HT is 'free', you're not losing crit or your favourite stat for it instead. it's also not haste rating, it's multiplicative with other haste which makes it a tiny bit better)

Your point on the recharge time of guard happening while you are not tanking is excellent. In Uldir it is not relevant because of the boss mechanics, but Guard does recharge between trash packs in dungeons so it is very similar to Light Brewing in that downtime makes it better. I will use Guard on every dungeon I do next week on the Monk (I used HT week 1 and BoC week 2) and see if it changes my mind. My biggest failing is that I'm much more interested in raiding than I am dungeons, so they sort of fall by the wayside on specific reccomendations.

Thanks for the feedback. If you or anyone reading disagrees or doesn't understand please do reply!

Vombalyst: Checking this soon.

[quotey 3]

On 8/25/2018 at 4:49 PM, Guest Vombalyst said:

Hey there, I'm a returning player (only played vanilla) and I fell in love with the BRM spec. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask my question but I tried solving my problem for the past few days now and I can't seem to get it solved. So apologies in advance if I'm not in the right place!

It looks like Mink's aura became outdated recently. I'm very sorry! Here is a link to a good stagger bar that shows total and tick amount with normal colour coding. I'm putting out an update today to link it in the guide as well as a more total HUD. Wago.io is a great repository for Weakauras.

I've just pushed an update to remove the link to Mink's, and reaplce it with that one, as well as a link to Wago and a slightly more exotic stagger bar called Normalized Stagger you might be interested in. If it's not live by the time you read this, here's the relevant text:

"Rivers' "Normalized Stagger" Weakaura deserves a section of its own. It works slightly differently from other Stagger auras, in that it doesn't just focus on the value of the Stagger damage you are taking. It mainly displays the size of your Stagger by comparing it to the amount of damage you have taken in the last 10 seconds. If it is high, your current level of Stagger is not stable and you should purify. Rivers provides a rough guide to purifying with the detail you gain from Normalized Stagger:

Grey - Do not purify. 
Yellow or Orange - Purify if the bar is nearly (70% - 80%) full, and you are not
about to take a large spike of Stagger (e.g. Spear of Nightmares). 
Red - purify if the bar is more than 50% full, or you are about to take a large
amount of direct damage that pierces Stagger (e.g. Magic damage or Bleeds).
Magenta - Purify if you are taking any damage at all that isn't Stagger.

The Weakaura also requires you to install an addon, BrewmasterTools which performs some functions the aura needs. BrewmasterTools only does this currently, and will not interfere with your other addons or display anything."

[Guest Vombalyst]

22 hours ago, quotey said:

Vombalyst: Checking this soon.

Much appreciated!