Subtlety Rogue 8.3

[Valks 2,375]

This thread is for comments about our Subtlety Rogue guide.

[ddkil 3]

Definitely not a big fan of the new subtlety.They turned one of the most satisfying specs in the game into something ordinary,spammy and not very rewarding to play.It was a pleasure managing dfa rotation and now its just spam shadowstrike all the time.Not good.

I haven't researched much about BFA yet,so it might change in the future with the new traits and abilities but It is very unlikely.

Edited July 21, 2018 by ddkil

[DLanceTF 0]

The link to the image with racial simulations is broken

[Valks 2,375]

13 hours ago, DLanceTF said:

The link to the image with racial simulations is broken

It is! Thanks for letting us know, we'll get it fixed.

[Guest RogueOne]

Do you care to elaborate more on Shadow Focus vs Nightstalker? 

Every sim I run has Nightstalker ahead of Shadow Focus.

[Ashine 7]

2 hours ago, Guest RogueOne said:

Do you care to elaborate more on Shadow Focus vs Nightstalker? 

Every sim I run has Nightstalker ahead of Shadow Focus.

Hey, would you mind linking me the results of your sims?

Are you simulating low fight duration with Bloodlust/Heroism enabled? That will skew the results due to the increased Energy regeneration.

I just reran my sims and Shadow Focus always came out ahead on pure single-target and 3+ target cleave. On single-target with add waves they are fairly equal.

My results are no different than what are displayed on Herodamage.com. Their talent combinator can be found here.

 

[RogueTwo 0]

Hi m8 gr8 guide, I'm just wondering since Pawn is showing different stat values and prio, I manually changed them, but I need your 1 point of weapon dmg values you've used, mind thowing it out there? Many thanks

[Ashine 7]

2 hours ago, RogueTwo said:

Hi m8 gr8 guide, I'm just wondering since Pawn is showing different stat values and prio, I manually changed them, but I need your 1 point of weapon dmg values you've used, mind thowing it out there? Many thanks

Your weapon DPS value should be around 8. (5 Normalized to Agility being 1)

Keep in mind that if you want accurate stat weights, you should always simulate your own character. It's fairly easy to do using Raidbots.

Stat weights change all the time depending on your gear, talents and many other things, so remember to simulate yourself often.

[ddkil 3]

From my sims most damaging build in solo target which is majority of the fights is 133xx31.Is that right?I am 321 ilvl atm.

If so,then it sucks ? I find that build really boring,it is simply spam shadow strike until target dies,just like warriors lol.

I really enjoy 132(3)xx12 build with shadow techniques and dark shadow though.It is the most close to former dfa playstyle.I wish that was the go for build in BFA.

Edited August 18, 2018 by ddkil

[Ashine 7]

22 hours ago, ddkil said:

From my sims most damaging build in solo target which is majority of the fights is 133xx31.Is that right?I am 321 ilvl atm.

If so,then it sucks ? I find that build really boring,it is simply spam shadow strike until target dies,just like warriors lol.

I really enjoy 132(3)xx12 build with shadow techniques and dark shadow though.It is the most close to former dfa playstyle.I wish that was the go for build in BFA.

Enveloping Shadows performs tiny bit better on pure single-target, but Dark Shadow becomes a better choice instantly when there are multiple targets in the equation. That means that if there are no massive changes incoming on how the talents function, it is most likely that on Raid bosses we will run 132xx11(2), unless its a pure single-target fight, in which case the 233xx31 talent build will be better.

On bosses with constant add waves that are high priority, you will likely run Secret Technique as it scales really well with the number of targets.

I also personally enjoy the 232xx12 talent setup with Dark Shadow and Secret Technique more for the same reasons as you and I'm happy that it performs exceptionally well in dungeons!

 

 

[Guest Wizzir]

Could you tell me why i'm getting such stat weights : ( Pawn: v1: "Wizzir-Subtlety": Class=Rogue, Spec=Subtlety, Agility=1.35, CritRating=0.82, HasteRating=0.94, MasteryRating=0.75, Versatility=0.76 )

How to set simcraft to get crit on the second place?
 

[ddkil 3]

2 hours ago, Ashine said:

Enveloping Shadows performs tiny bit better on pure single-target, but Dark Shadow becomes a better choice instantly when there are multiple targets in the equation. That means that if there are no massive changes incoming on how the talents function, it is most likely that on Raid bosses we will run 132xx11(2), unless its a pure single-target fight, in which case the 233xx31 talent build will be better.

Actually is Mark for death that much behind Deeper strategem?I feel like I miss out alot when I dont use Mark for death on trash mobs in dungeons.But I might be wrong.
Also I am starting to dig blade master alot since I tend to use backstab much more when playing with secret techniques and those double backstabs seem very juicy ?

[Ashine 7]

1 hour ago, Guest Wizzir said:

Could you tell me why i'm getting such stat weights : ( Pawn: v1: "Wizzir-Subtlety": Class=Rogue, Spec=Subtlety, Agility=1.35, CritRating=0.82, HasteRating=0.94, MasteryRating=0.75, Versatility=0.76 )

How to set simcraft to get crit on the second place?
 

Hey, if you have a trinket that gives Critical Strike, or just simply have it a lot on gear it will make the other stats more desirable. All of the four stats are very close to each other for Subtlety.

There is no need to get Crit on the second place.

[Ashine 7]

40 minutes ago, ddkil said:

Actually is Mark for death that much behind Deeper strategem?I feel like I miss out alot when I dont use Mark for death on trash mobs in dungeons.But I might be wrong.
Also I am starting to dig blade master alot since I tend to use backstab much more when playing with secret techniques and those double backstabs seem very juicy ?

There has been experimental sims that could suggest that Marked for Death is better than Deeper Stratagem for Dungeons, but the gains are quite marginal. Also to keep in mind that the simulation plays MfD perfectly, which is quite hard to pull off in a practical situation, whilst Deeper Stratagem is a passive that makes game play easier.

Weaponmaster definitely makes the spec quite a bit nicer to play due to the accelerated Combo Point gain. It also performs better than Find Weakness on single-target when playing with the multi-target talents (Dark Shadow, Secret Technique) but a little bit worse on cleave situations. I have pushed an update earlier today to the guide regarding Weaponmaster and it should be live shortly.

[Guest Wizzir]

1 hour ago, Ashine said:

Hey, if you have a trinket that gives Critical Strike, or just simply have it a lot on gear it will make the other stats more desirable. All of the four stats are very close to each other for Subtlety.

There is no need to get Crit on the second place.

So basically i should follow simcraft stats and do the sim after every item to keep those stats close enough to each other? Or maybe better way is to keep it up with your stats from the guide and set them manually in statweights and pawn? I'm getting confused with all of those sims. Rn i'm using stat weights from your guide.

[Ashine 7]

4 minutes ago, Guest Wizzir said:

So basically i should follow simcraft stats and do the sim after every item to keep those stats close enough to each other? Or maybe better way is to keep it up with your stats from the guide and set them manually in statweights and pawn? I'm getting confused with all of those sims. Rn i'm using stat weights from your guide.

You should always simulate your own character and follow those stat weights as they are the ones that are 100% accurate for your own character.

[McFuu 1]

Question on Azerite traits:

Do these effects stack?  Inevitability shows a 3.8% dmg increase on the list.  When I sim I see it gives me a 1.5% increase (not questioning the list, I obviously have different gear with different sim build).  But with the second inevitability enabled I only get a .4% increase on that second inevitability.  Is this an issue with the sim or do the effects not stack perfectly?  Or is there an internal cooldown possibly?

[Ashine 7]

1 hour ago, McFuu said:

Question on Azerite traits:

Do these effects stack?  Inevitability shows a 3.8% dmg increase on the list.  When I sim I see it gives me a 1.5% increase (not questioning the list, I obviously have different gear with different sim build).  But with the second inevitability enabled I only get a .4% increase on that second inevitability.  Is this an issue with the sim or do the effects not stack perfectly?  Or is there an internal cooldown possibly?

That is because the secondary part of the trait (each Backstab and Shadowstrike extend the duration of your Symbols of Death) does not scale with how many Inevitability traits you have. Whether you have 1 or 3, it will still only extend it by 0.5 seconds per cast.

Always only have maximum of one Inevitability trait.

[Alteraego 0]

Okay noob question: why do you have Prey on the Weak as the talent choice for Raid (single target) rotation when raid bosses are immune to stuns etc..? 

Edited August 20, 2018 by Alteraego

[McFuu 1]

12 hours ago, Ashine said:

That is because the secondary part of the trait (each Backstab and Shadowstrike extend the duration of your Symbols of Death) does not scale with how many Inevitability traits you have. Whether you have 1 or 3, it will still only extend it by 0.5 seconds per cast.

Always only have maximum of one Inevitability trait.

Thank you. 

[McFuu 1]

10 hours ago, Alteraego said:

Okay noob question: why do you have Prey on the Weak as the talent choice for Raid (single target) rotation when raid bosses are immune to stuns etc..? 

Priority adds and trash mobs usually are vulnerable to stuns, like slowing or stunning.  Such as Aggramar's Taeshalach flames phase. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by McFuu

[Valks 2,375]

On 8/20/2018 at 3:51 AM, Alteraego said:

Okay noob question: why do you have Prey on the Weak as the talent choice for Raid (single target) rotation when raid bosses are immune to stuns etc..? 

Just to add to what was said above, all 3 talents on there are "useless" for raid bosses, so to speak, but they give small benefits when actually available to use. PotW is the only damage increase in those situations.

[ddkil 3]

Do all azerite traits stack?For example Heed My Call, does it increase my proc chance if I take it twice?

[Ashine 7]

4 hours ago, ddkil said:

Do all azerite traits stack?For example Heed My Call, does it increase my proc chance if I take it twice?

Stacking traits will not increase the proc chances, but it increases the damage or the effect of the trait.

The only trait that loses value the more you have, is Inevitability for reasons mentioned few posts above.

[ddkil 3]

4 minutes ago, Ashine said:

Stacking traits will not increase the proc chances, but it increases the damage or the effect of the trait.

The only trait that loses value the more you have, is Inevitability for reasons mentioned few posts above.

Ok thanks for clarification.Good to know about Inevitability and the mechanics behind stacking.

Also I use herodamage.com for my choices.Is that a reliable source?

Edited August 24, 2018 by ddkil