wow Christie Golden Didn't Write Warbringers

[Xlodvig 0]

6 hours ago, verthus said:

her going there was to save her people.

Yes, that's exactly what she did. She also murdered civilians during battle for Andorhal and tortured Koltira Deathweaver because he didn't want to kill his friend on opposing side. All that to save her people. She saved samples of new plague of undeath made by Arthas's accomplices as weapon against Southshore murdering everyone there. Her ultimate goal is to make everyone in the Eastern Kingdoms her undead servant. Then, i guess, her people will be saved. Her logic is similar to the Lich King one, but she does not serve Sargaeras. Ultimately she fights against life, because of her sufferning in before. That's exactly what Delarin Summermoon tells Sylvanas in the movie. And that's exactlty what she do not want to be reminded.

She is totally in character here.

[Demenzel 29]

19 hours ago, Dravixus said:

This mirrors my concerns as well. On the surface, the Horde is not looking so hot right now.

maybe, but the Night Elf are.... ?

 

[TheKaiser 0]

I enjoyed the cinematic, it doesn't really break with Sylvanas as a character and the Horde generally is quite evil. I am very tired of all the Horde apologists trying to force a narrative in which the faction of people they like to brutalize (as the fans are very vocal about, even though they claim the Horde to not be evil, which is rather confusing when people show such disregard for life) would be the villain. Play the Horde, its ok with me and even if you identify with it, that is fine. Its fun to play the bad guys, but don't act as if the Horde and Alliance could be put on the same moral level.

So Sylvanas being brutal and a criminal for her personal gains makes a lot of sense in light of her character, as Pyromancer put it himself

You should just be a bit patient and don't go out of your way to harras the writers, if you do that you are not worthy of even being allowed to play this game.

I think most Horde loyalists are just butthurt about this direction the story goes and upset that the night elves they like to spit on at every time are not the villains in a story, that continues years of crimes and suffering brought on the people in Ashenvale and Darkshore. And you should just act a bit more relax and wait for the story to unfold and not attack Blizzard staff like immature children.

[CountSchliktenStaugh 0]

Question — Why does Sylvanas need to be redeemed? 
Short Answer — She doesn't.

As someone who has a limited knowledge of WoW lore, and who witnessed the uproar caused by Sylvanas’ Warbringer short from the perspective of someone who just likes to encounter complex characters, as I'm sure most people who enjoy stories do. I’m left disagreeing with much of the criticism that stems from the idea that Sylvanas, due to a single animated short, is now suddenly shoehorned into this 'evil' character archetype who is, vindictive, irrational, and ruled by her emotions. A criticism that’s being supported by regurgitated phrases like, “She’s irredeemable as a character now”.

From the Warbringer short, it certainly could be assumed that she may have decided to burn down the world tree based on a petty rage-stricken whim. But I don't think we have enough information to exclude the possibility that doing so may have been part of Sylvanas' or the Horde’s original plan. Additionally, committing an act of war, brutal as it may be, during war... doesn't necessarily make her irredeemable. As an aside, if we're going to attempt to reconcile war-time decision making with a characters core morality, because that’s what we're talking about here, perceived good, perceived evil, and the wishy-washy grey area where most ordinary people’s decisions fall, then we are going to have a bad time. Taking the breadth of a character’s choices, experiences, introspective moments, and general dialogue and pitting all of that against one, albeit extreme, decision is jumping the gun, to say the least.

Let’s get on the same page or at least glance at the same book. What are we actually talking about when we say a character is redeemable? Essentially, we’re saying that we like this character and we don't want to not like them because they made a naughty. Of course, the perception of how ‘bad’ the thing that they did was is completely subjective (everything*), and as such we usually cast our unreasonable judgments from a personal throne that overlooks this character’s entirely made up universe. And if we decide that they were exceptionally mischievous then we bring our celestial gavels rocketing down with all the force of the heavens. 

Crux: We just feel like we can’t root for them anymore. 

Consequently, fingers start being wagged at writers, and according to the players they need to, by some feat of charitable storytelling, have their beloved characters guided back to a place where we can hug them again, without getting poked by the droves of undead who were mercilessly turned into skeletal shrapnel, by a character who, for me, was still in the cuddle zone?

I don’t think anyone who has had any experience with Sylvanas’ character throughout the game can look at her and say yeah, well, she’s beautiful on the inside *high pitched trailing off*? Sylvanas just isn’t what I think a lot of people want her to be. She’s not an archetypal villain-turned-hero due to finally realizing a cause greater than herself, and she certainly isn't a shining example of what a leader should be. Especially in her current situation  where she is at the head of a tribe that holds many different voices, races, ideals and grudges, and I don't think it is ever really made clear that she wants to be the Warchief for anything other than her own personal reasons and conquests. Someone died... so succession, and she is incredibly skilled/powerful and people tend to respect and follow that type of individual. 

The point I'm trying to convey is that if Sylvanas held a warm place in your heart because you thought she was a conflicted character capable of being swayed by forces of good, then I can understand why the short may have rubbed you the wrong way. You may be able to make a case for her being conflicted, but ‘good’ in the colloquial sense of the word. I don’t think so. Although again I have limited knowledge of Sylvanas as a character outside of just the main WoW storyline. Still, I don't think her being ‘good’ was ever really a possibility.

Sylvanas is however all-in, cards on the table, and betting everything in terms of the role that she feels she plays. Take a second to consider the fact that she literally died. Literally. Died. However, she was brought back to life, so there’s that? Additionally, how much of her human/night-elf let's call it ‘soul’, or perhaps just moral inclinations can we assume are still hanging around?

Moving on, what I thought was fantastic about the short was how it portrayed her powerlessness during the moment of her death. She certainly didn’t seem ready to die and the animators did a wonderful job capturing that disbelief and horror. On top of that we are talking about Sylvanas here who, in the short alone, was handing out head-shots like they were free samples, and even still she gets poked to death and has to watch her lifeless corpse, and the corpses of the people who she couldn’t save, a very important point in terms of her character, from a position, of again, total powerlessness, helplessness, hopelessness, whichever word suits you. 

I would say that the weight of her death,  subsequent necro-rez, and coming to terms with the lives that she was unable save is clearly expressed through the character that we know up to this point, and the more we encounter Sylvanas the more she seems to emanate a sort of fatalist aggression? Considering what she has been through I can't really blame her for chasing the exact opposite feeling of that which she experienced during her death, and think it is safe to say that she doesn’t want to be lorded over or feel helpless to that extent ever again. So in that sense, one could empathize with her relentless search for power, and she certainly has her moments: *Banshee Shrieking AoE Instadeath / Raid buff*. I mean seriously what was the CD timer on that move (trailer)? 

Playing devil’s advocate, I think, would reveal a character who is significantly wiser than the criticism that the short seemed to incite. Sylvanas isn’t at odds with her explosive rage and contentment with the world. All of that chaos drives her and allows her to protect her own people. But at the same time, in some way, she understands that she is also just another helpless being in a seemingly inescapable struggle for survival where some people play greater roles than others. 
#HumbledEarly

Another thing to consider while deciding whether she is good, evil, moral, immoral, redeemable, irredeemable, or if that’s even a valid criticism. Is that the Horde may be making their own decisions based on some of the same criteria. Saurfang is definitely a guy to root for if you're into all of that moral ambiguity. Enjoy BFA, you fickle do-gooders!

Reasons to like Sylvia Plath Sylvanas

• Edgy One-Liners
• Sweet (permanent it seems) Eye-liner
• Feels Good to be Bad
• Accepts Rez’s

Reasons to not like Sylvanas

• Burns Childrens n' Innocents
• Emotionally Volatile
• Total Glory Hog
• Doesn’t Like to be Poked

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by CountSchliktenStaugh

[Ancalagon 35]

The choice of words used in the animation make me wonder:

"I remember a fall" - a subtle nod to her suicide atop ICC.

"Hope fails" - a nod to one of Yogg-Saron's titles "Hope's End".

And during the questline for chapter 2, Malfurion says "You led your Horde in service of death." - another title of Yogg-Saron "God of Death".

 

I could be reading too much into it (I do that), but maybe they are trying to lead the story in the direction of Yogg, and how he was able to get a foothold in Sylvannas' mind when she threw herself from ICC, impaling herself on Saronite.  If he is whispering in her head, telling her to light the final torch, then instigating a worldwide war that will take attention away from the actions of the Old Gods (like keeping Saurfang out of Silithus - they remember him and don't want a repeateed failure there) and sacrifice many powerful champions that could stand against them in the process, it would ease the coming of the hour of twilight.

 

Thy also emphasized her "warrior spirit", which, in conjunction with the Val'kyr that were bound to her after here suicide, makes me think that Odyn is somehow involved in some way as well. (and that we will see him again in BFA)

 

Again, I'm just over-analyzing their choice of words and theorizing implications.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Ancalagon

[Nazamber 38]

Well, I wouldn't be so certain that Christie wasn't fully involved with what happens with Warbringers. I imagine the artwork and all that was something she wasn't involved in but she does write Elegy, which leads up to those moments. Additionally, I am not going to say they are #fakenewsing us and I don't think its fair to attack her with the direction Blizzard practically set up but from my understanding from Blizzard/Blizzcon, C.G. has been involved with the story since the epilogue cinematic (which was her first part of the prelude to BfA), which was further placed in Before the Storm. Since Blizzard announced her as lead story writer and as most story-boarding goes she has to have some form of understanding of what is going which she could have advised against these turn of events.  

To that extent, its not like she showed up day 1 and was like, "I don't care where its going, I am just going to write what I want", the writing team, I am sure briefed on what they had planned and what they were thinking of doing with her input and she wrote around what she probably liked.

However, with that being said...its a game, its writing...people are either going to like it or dislike it..No one should be personally attacking/threatening someone over fictitious events, thats just silly...the people writing are real people, they can be affected by this nonsense emotionally to the point where you drive them out for no reason.

 

[Nazamber 38]

4 hours ago, Ancalagon said:

The choice of words used in the animation make me wonder:

"I remember a fall" - a subtle nod to her suicide atop ICC.

"Hope fails" - a nod to one of Yogg-Saron's titles "Hope's End".

And during the questline for chapter 2, Malfurion says "You led your Horde in service of death." - another title of Yogg-Saron "God of Death".

 

I could be reading too much into it (I do that), but maybe they are trying to lead the story in the direction of Yogg, and how he was able to get a foothold in Sylvannas' mind when she threw herself from ICC, impaling herself on Saronite.  If he is whispering in her head, telling her to light the final torch, then instigating a worldwide war that will take attention away from the actions of the Old Gods (like keeping Saurfang out of Silithus - they remember him and don't want a repeateed failure there) and sacrifice many powerful champions that could stand against them in the process, it would ease the coming of the hour of twilight.

 

Thy also emphasized her "warrior spirit", which, in conjunction with the Val'kyr that were bound to her after here suicide, makes me think that Odyn is somehow involved in some way as well. (and that we will see him again in BFA)

 

Again, I'm just over-analyzing their choice of words and theorizing implications.

I think she says, "I remember a fool" -- and brings up the event where she considers her self a fool for believing in Hope.

[Ancalagon 35]

Ah, thank you - it was hard to make it out.  That makes more sense.