5.4, is Afflic really better than Destro?

[Belicosa 11]

I switched from Afflic to Destro when I started raiding MoP, and was quite pleased with the result. Now, from what I am reading, 5.4 has put Afflic back on top, and it makes world encounters easier since I don't have to try to switch specs quickly when anticipating a PvP attack.

 

That said, I cannot seem to get my Afflic to out-perform Destro, even with appropriate regems and reforges. Am I missing something?

 

Sorry, no logs, but here is my character sheet: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/twisting-nether/Zazaine/advanced

[raz27 0]

Are you reforge for mast>haste>crit? , im seeing crit your sec stat atm , also you dont have the metagem , very important for affliction , also your trinkets are better for destro than affl .

And also destro is slide better on low ilvls

[Brown 14]

They quietly nerfed affliction a bit. On release of 5.4, aff was up there. It is no longer.

 

Play what you enjoy (all three specs are doing reasonably well), but for now you'll get the most mileage out of destro in raids.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Seeing people with exp/mastery gems makes me want to beat the devs of AMR with a stick, seeing people with a pure red exp gem makes me want to beat the devs of AMR with a baseball bat.

 

Okay, pure min/maxing destro kicks affs ass (unless on a fight where aff can multi-dot like a mofo) In real world, you're going to see them fairly evenly split. Destro is far easier to do top DPS with, aff is far easier to do median DPS with. Destro in the hands of one who is truly skilled will crush the world and make it burn, however since it's been at the bottom of the pile for most of the xpack, for most of the last two xpacks, for most of the last THREE xpacks, very few top end warlocks CAN play destro to that amazing .01% level where as a very large number of them CAN play aff at that level since Aff never REALLY goes out of style (there will always be that one fight where aff will crush all the other specs/classes in the game so aff is a very good stand by or secondary spec for heroic raiders to have since it plays so nicely with where destro an demo fall off).

 

As such this large skill gap leads many warlocks to say "Yes, aff is still the best" when that isn't really true per se. Really what the statement should be is "Aff is better FOR ME at MY gear level and MY skill level" to a degree this is true for all specs, but it is most prevalent right now in terms of aff/destro since the numbers and skill requirements are so close right now.

 

The skills for the two specs lay in different areas, that is the most important thing. Very few people are amazing in both of the areas that aff and destro fall in to, most likely you will fall in to one of the two camps, either good at aff or good at destro. To a point you will be "good" with the other spec but there will likely be one that seems more natural for you, flows better, has better mussel memory for, etc. that pushes it over the other spec. This is purely personal and something you'd have to find for yourself.

 

The other thing to consider is external, gear. Right now your gear is kind of shit for...both. You can't win really, your GEAR is mostly better suited for destro right now, lots of crit, not much haste, lots of mastery. However, your trinkets SUCK for destro...and for aff. You have one destro trinket and one aff trinket making them together kind of bad for both. Haste proc isn't bad for aff, totally useless for destro. Crit proc isn't bad for destro, mostly useless for aff. Either way you're kind of screwed here.

 

As such, I wouldn't worry to much on numbers right now. For you, I'd say that you should play the one that feels....right. The one that you like more, feel better doing, feel more smooth playing. Identify that and then gear for it, destro mastery>crit>haste with int>mastery>crit proc trinkets or aff mastery>haste>crit with int>mastery>haste>crit proc trinkets.

 

If both of the specs feel good to you, then play both. Grab the gear that comes your way and keep it in a gear set, if you don't mind paying the reforge fees and such.

[JvChequer 43]

Seeing people with exp/mastery gems makes me want to beat the devs of AMR with a stick, seeing people with a pure red exp gem makes me want to beat the devs of AMR with a baseball bat.

 

 

 

For Destro Exp + Mastery it's HANDS DOWN better than Int + Mastery if u can manage u hit cap.

Edited November 29, 2013 by JvChequer

[Liquidsteel 279]

Expertise/Mastery gems are extremely valuable. It allows you to reforge out of hit or prevents you from having to reforge into it.

 

All 3 secondary stats are worth more than half a point of intellect, so the gems are worth it.

 

Curious why you oppose them?

[JvChequer 43]

Expertise/Mastery gems are extremely valuable. It allows you to reforge out of hit or prevents you from having to reforge into it.

 

All 3 secondary stats are worth more than half a point of intellect, so the gems are worth it.

 

Curious why you oppose them?

Maybe he plays Affliction in most fights or something like that, and for affli Exp + Mastery it's really worse, but not that much.

Even with Affli OS, if u play mostly on Destro, I STRONG recommended u go for Exp + Mastery if u don't have a lot of hit items

[Lockybalboa 618]

For Destro Exp + Mastery it's HANDS DOWN better than Int + Mastery if u can manage u hit cap.

 

Not really hands down, even at the best case scenario it's only a theoretically 1% dps gain. 

 

I have a lot of hit, most people end up with a lot of hit. Far rather have int from my gems. I also gem very lazy, 99% of the time I use pure mastery gems and ignore sockets simply because I'd rather buy 50g pure mastery gems then 190g+ hybrid gems.

[Omaric 246]

There's also the fact that INT plays directly off of your secondaries and because you can't reforge to INT it makes sense to gem it.

[Silverman 0]

I don't like the exp gems for 2 reasons.

1. If you gem for Int/mastery + mastery + hit(stamina)/mastery, you don't have to play around with AMR too much and can reforge through reforgelite(especially helpful if you get upgrades and you want to equip them right away, without  delaying the raid). I have all 3 gems and enchantmats all the time with me, so that i can equip the new gear in literally few seconds.

 

2.  If you get new gear, you have just to gem this one new piece. But in case of exp/int-gems and amr in can happen, that for 1 piece of gear, you have to regem 4+ items. In the end the theoretical DPS-difference between the "optimal"-AMR-regem-reforge, and the regular gemming so minimal, that it's not worth it (500 sim-dps-difference is within the margin of statistical errors...so its basically nothing).

[Liquidsteel 279]

Maybe he plays Affliction in most fights or something like that, and for affli Exp + Mastery it's really worse, but not that much.

Even with Affli OS, if u play mostly on Destro, I STRONG recommended u go for Exp + Mastery if u don't have a lot of hit items

 

Well even for Affliction they can work. Take my bracers and belt, for example.

 

Both are Hit/Mastery. 

 

By gemming expertise it allows me to reforge out of hit and into haste.

 

Haste and Mastery both sim out as worth over half the stat weight of Intellect, so it makes sense.

 

But the arguments I'm seeing here are more a case of "don't want the hassle of managing more than one item upon upgrade" or "don't want to spend too much on gems" so it's kind of whatever.

[Caolela 2]

When AH has gone crazy on prices for a certain gem, I just have a friend or guildie cut me a few. Otherwise, it's no big deal to grab a few when I need to gem a new piece. At the level most of us here are at now (550+), I'd say if you can't afford a couple hundred g for gems...then yer a bum. lol If you can't take the time to set up your warlock right, then go play mage or rogue 3-button derp.

 

I usually (but not in every case) add up my Hit with a new or different piece. Under 5100? Exp/Mast until I reach it or slightly over. Over 5100? Int/Mast.

 

What, me worry?

[Lockybalboa 618]

I'd say if you can't afford a couple hundred g for gems...then yer a bum. lol If you can't take the time to set up your warlock right, then go play mage or rogue 3-button derp.

 

Spend 1,500 gold a night, four nights a week, on Heroic Garrosh progression and you'll start to value your gold more. I'd by far rather save my gold and spend it on something important then blow most of it on gems in gear that I'll replace sooner or later when at the end of the night it will only net me at MOST a few points of a percent DPS gain. 

 

Only time I break this rule is when I'm in BiS or we're up on a REAL DPS check, like pre-nerf Nou where we were missing the DPS mark by ~5% boss hp.

[juribe 1]

Is gold really that hard to come by? Is it really an issue? Also, do you not know any JCs that will cut you gems? I mean it obviously isn't a huge DPS increase to min/max gems, but what else could you possibly be spending gold on?

[Omaric 246]

Is gold really that hard to come by? Is it really an issue? Also, do you not know any JCs that will cut you gems? I mean it obviously isn't a huge DPS increase to min/max gems, but what else could you possibly be spending gold on?

 

Generating 6,000 gold a week is a bit above what I can do with the amount of time I'm actually in game.  I wouldn't be able to pull off what Locky does unless I started to farm more aggressively.

 

That said, my guild is pretty good about supplying gems, so that's a non-issue.  However, because theorycrafting gems in the way we are in this thread is so negligible, why would you want to spend extra gold on gems/reforging if you don't have to?

[Lockybalboa 618]

However, because theorycrafting gems in the way we are in this thread is so negligible, why would you want to spend extra gold on gems/reforging if you don't have to?

 

This. If I wanted to, my girlfriend would farm all the gems for me. Shes offered 15 or 20 times since the xpac started. If I wanted to I'd get all my gems for free from my guild. 

 

I don't do these because I don't take free stuff. I work for it all. I enjoy working for it all, but because I work for it all I'm also very careful in what I use my time and gold on, gems that do almost nothing for me and cost 4-6 times the price aren't worth it. Not even close.

[Caolela 2]

Locky, my last post was meant generally, not at anyone here specifically. Hope no one took offense; none was intended. You may know me enough to know I'm always busting chops, but in a friendly way.

 

When gems prices start to go north, I refuse to pay it. It can add up to fairly large outlay before you know it. And often times I don't really need them, it's just for comparison/min-max.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Caolela

[Lockybalboa 618]

Locky, my last post was meant generally, not at anyone here specifically. Hope no one took offense; none was intended. You may know me enough to know I'm always busting chops, but in a friendly way.

 

 

no no, no offence was taken. Just super tired and hating garrosh.

[Zagam 1,982]

I gem Int/Mastery and I still have to reforge out of every hit of Hit possible.  I have a few Haste -> Hit reforges, but Haste is already worthless to me as Destruction.

 

Int/Mastery gems are shunned by the masses because AMR says Exp/Mastery gems are better.  Everyone forgets INTELLECT IS YOUR BEST STAT ALWAYS BAR NONE!  I hit 51k spell power with no procs with all raid buffs up now.  No one who gems Expertise comes close to that.  It's a small difference, but the reforge argument goes out the window, because once you get to the 570 item level range, you don't need to be gemming for Hit.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Well like you said, you consider haste to be worthless. Many people don't think that way, though there are also many who agree.

 

If SimC is to be trusted, all secondary stats are worth more than half a point of intellect, and I would much rather gain 160 mastery/haste/crit over 80 intellect.

 

I play destro for progression and demo on almost everything else when I can. I sit at 8097 haste then dump the rest into crit.

 

I am completely reforged out of hit, but need 9 orange gems to hit the cap.

 

I guess my TL:DR would be that Mastery is our best stat, because 2 points of mastery are worth more than 1 point of intellect.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Liquidsteel

[Zagam 1,982]

I agree about gemming Mastery.  I disagree with using Expertise to get there.  But each person has their own flavor.  I enjoy higher spell power, and I see myself regularly outperforming players who gem Expertise.  I think most people forget how good Intellect is. 

[JvChequer 43]

I agree about gemming Mastery.  I disagree with using Expertise to get there.  But each person has their own flavor.  I enjoy higher spell power, and I see myself regularly outperforming players who gem Expertise.  I think most people forget how good Intellect is.

Intellect is good.

But 2x that quantity in haste or crit it's just better.

I think you underestimate a little bit haste, it's a great attribute, mainly in heavy AOE.

Haste it's only undesirable at all when u reach GCD with Backslash, until that, haste and crit it's equally good for destro.

I reforge Mastery > crit > haste aswell btw - just for Thok i change it.

As I said early on this thread, Exp/Mastery gems are not desirable if u are full of hit, but, if u can gain a little bit more crit and haste cutting 700~ int for gaining 1400~ secondary, it's indeed mathematically desirable.

Edited December 2, 2013 by JvChequer

[Liquidsteel 279]

Intelect is good.

But 2x that quantity in haste or crit it's just better.

 

Yeah this is what I was saying.

 

Just out of curiosity I simmed myself in both destro and demo specs. One where I had int + mastery gems and another (my current set up) where I use expertise + mastery.

 

For Destro the expertise and mastery was 2k ahead (pretty close and within the range of RNG).

 

For Demo the expertise and mastery was 6k ahead. The trade off here was almost exactly 600 int vs 1200 crit.

 

Nobody is saying that intellect is bad, it's just not as good as twice the number of secondary stats. 

Edited December 2, 2013 by Liquidsteel

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm not arguing that math either.  I'm arguing that Intellect is better than Expertise because with the gear you get, even after reforging completely out of Hit, you're still at the cap.  Using Expertise in place of Intellect here doesn't make sense because you're already at a cap.  You're not technically trading 600 Int for 1200 Crit or any other stat.  You're still shuffling points around. 

 

My total point is it's fine which way you go, but gemming Intellect/Mastery over Expertise/Mastery will give better results at high end levels of gear.  Simulating those numbers isn't a reliable way to come to the conclusion.  Look at some of the best Destro Warlocks out there...they're not gemming Expertise.  Hell, one of them gems pure Intellect in red sockets and crushes parses all the time.  The theoretical difference between the gems is low.  There's no argument on Mastery here...we're debating Expertise against Intellect, and I can't see how people are able to gem Expertise and keep their value under 15.00%.  I'm reforging out of Hit on all but a couple pieces of gear and I struggle to get down to 15%.  It might be a first world gear issue since I'm at 574 now.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Well I'm at 570 and have hit on 5 items, all of which I reforge into a different secondary.

 

You have hit on 6 items and on 2 other you choose to reforge haste to hit, so that's 8 items in total with hit.

 

The difference is that you keep haste as low as possible, whereas I try to balance haste and crit somewhat, but generally prefer a bit more haste purely from a play style point of view. 

 

In your case your gemming makes sense and I agree that all of this is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things but with progress nearly over it's fun to min max and debate these things.

 

I disagree that it isn't 1200 crit vs 600 intellect though.

 

If I didn't gem expertise I wouldn't be able to reforge out of hit and into crit. Effectively gemming expertise is what enables me to reforge hit into a preferred secondary stat. By not gemming intellect it allows me to shuffle my secondaries. 

 

I think that's a pretty bad explanation but does it make sense?