Gemming/Reforge Question

[Deimosphobos 1]

Ok so...if you were me and you wanted the optimal setup with your Gems/Reforging...what would you change on my gear...I usually use AMR, but have shyed away from it now for awhile, at first I was put off at the Exp/Mstry gems, now I understand why it wants you to do it...I just don't feel though that losing a bunch of intellect over it is useful, as with my current swtup, if I switched to all Exp/Mstry gems I would lose a lot of Intell and gain some haste...also I would lose about 3% mastery and gain 3% crit...I don't see how this is a DPS gain...but I dunno...please explain if you would follow AMR in this situation of if you would customize the gems/reforge different...I just want the optimal setup with them...

Armory Link:   http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/duskwood/Deimosphobos/advanced

AMR Link http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/usa/duskwood/deimosphobos

 

 

also, yes I know that my cloak is missing a enchant...

and this is all based around GoSac..I really want to run with it...

 

 

[Lockybalboa 618]

Following AMR is likely going to be wrong no matter what.

 

Exp/mastery Vs. int/mastery is up for debate, the top end warlocks are kind of half/half right now.

 

It's not as good as people say it is. If you have really low hit gear, it's useful. If you're 570+ then you're almost assured to not have this problem and so the value of the gems goes way down. You can ONLY gain crit or haste by using them, crit is good but not amazing and haste is shit. Int is always good clean DPS. No RNG, no guessing, just damage. If your gear is so low ilvl or so badly itemized that you're having to reforge out of MASTERY in order to get your hit cap, then exp/mastery gems are useful. Other wise, no. 

 

The theory is that since two points of crit/haste/mastery are worth more then one point of int, you can gem for exp and then turn the hit on your gear in to crit/haste/mastery. 

 

Thing is, you should already be going as deep mastery as you can. So, you're likely already at the max amount of mastery you can get with your gear and changing these gems won't help that. Thus you are only going to be gaining crit or haste.

 

Haste is totally worthless to destro. Most people that play destro full time now go for as little haste as they can get, many locks have only 11-12% haste with raid buff (5% from baseline, 5% spell haste raid buff, 1-2% haste from gear because that is as little as they could get).

 

Crit is good, crit is tasty. Crit gives embers, damage, etc. Yummy. It's also a little RNG and doesn't scale for shit on CB. Mastery and int give a LOT more bang for CB then crit can.

 

Int is clean DPS gain. Int=SP and a little crit, this buffs everything, almost no RNG to the gain, and scales very well with CB. CB is normally 33-40% of my damage so...ya. I'd rather have 900 int Vs. ~1700 crit.

[Deimosphobos 1]

see I thought roughly the same thing...as it stands right now for me to be hit capped all I have to reforge is the haste on my pants into hit and that's it...so if I dropped some Intell for exp/mast gems all I would gain is some haste (about 530) and lose about 240ish Intell...I don't feel personally that's a good trade...

 

somebody told me im stupid though lol, but I see now that they are dumb!...now as you said for lower gear lvls its a must, buty all my gear at 543 gives me all the hit I need with only having to reforge to hit once

[Typecast 16]

The whole argument over which is better is getting pretty dumb. Just ignore the expertise part of the equation. If you are reforging from/to hit, ask yourself which you value more, 80 int from gemming or 160 of a secondary stat from reforging. If you have PBI, don't forget to add the % to the haste/mastery reforge. Heroic WF PBI adds 14.4 stat points to either mastery or haste. If you value the 80 int higher, then gem int gems. If you value the 160 secondary stat points higher, then gem expertise gems. I personally think 174 haste/mastery or 160 crit is better than 80 int.

For most people who really are unsure, just choose one way of gemming and stick to it. Focus more on your rotation than your gems/reforges and your damage will improve.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Typecast

[Lockybalboa 618]

if you value the secondary stat higher, then gem expertise gems. I personally value think 174 haste/mastery or 160 crit is better than 80 int.

 

174 mastery, sure. Haste or crit, naw. 

 

You should already be getting all of the mastery you can get from reforging, regardless of your gems. Thus why it's only at lower ilvl that I would recommend to gem exp/mastery, and tbh if your gear is THAT low then it doesn't really matter what you gem, your dps is going be a bit sucky.

[JvChequer 43]

Exp/mastery or int/mastery does not matter, gem whatever u want, gem full int if u want too, I gem expertise because i like secondary and high crit chances, other locks prefer a more estable flat dmg, the difference between max-min all gems are pretty irrelevant, less than carrying about what pet u should use as affliction or something dull like that.

 

Thanks blizzard for removing most gems next x-pac, maybe ppl stop carying that much about something so minimal.

Edited December 13, 2013 by JvChequer

[Deimosphobos 1]

valid points from everyone, i app the advice....my biggest thing was i just wanted to make sure what i have done with my gemming was not wrong....and to clarify what someone had told me about freeing up my secondary stats by gemming Exp/Mst gems (i knew this but didn't see the point for my current gear) if you do examine my gear you will see that if i do gem Exp then the only thing i will gain is some haste/crit....is that worth more than Intell?? i suppose that's debatable ..as many have stated the Intell is a flat DMG boost to every spell...

 

i have to learn to stay away from AMR, however looking at AMR in "Reforge Only" mode i can gain about 1.4% and about 3% more crit at the cost of 2% haste....so that i will do for sure

[Deimosphobos 1]

1.4% more mastery is what i meant in above

[Typecast 16]

174 mastery, sure. Haste or crit, naw. 

 

You should already be getting all of the mastery you can get from reforging, regardless of your gems. Thus why it's only at lower ilvl that I would recommend to gem exp/mastery, and tbh if your gear is THAT low then it doesn't really matter what you gem, your dps is going be a bit sucky.

You should be getting all your mastery from stats on gear instead of reforging. And I don't understand all this talk about why haste is a bad stat when the problem is really backdraft and heroism/metagem. When you have those procs up and you must cast a conflag, pyroclasm a chaos bolt and rain of fire (same timeframe as triple backdrafted incinerates). If you won't cap Conflagrate before the haste buff falls off, then simply don't cast it. All haste does is make the spec a little less face-roll.

Point for point in value, all of our secondary stats are worth more than half an int (which only contributes SP and 0.0004% crit before raid buffs).

Edited December 13, 2013 by Typecast

[Liquidsteel 279]

Haste isn't a bad stat for destro, people just have an aversion to hitting the GCD. It benefits more than just incinerate, and it also benefits non backdrafted incinerates anyway.

 

Just manage your conflag to not use it during LMG (BL can't be helped) and you'll feel better.

 

Haste is a good stat, thus gemming expertise to get more haste is a good thing.

[Kazistrasz 216]

You can play with haste, but many of us have found playing with crit just tends to provide better results. You can't help when LMG procs. If you're not at 0 stacks of Backdraft when it procs, you're going to clip if you're running haste. Nothing you can do about that. Seeing as I'm very rarely at 0 stacks, it means I'm going to GCD clip almost every time it procs, which is bad juju.

[Zagam 1,982]

I can't wait for Haste breakpoints to not matter so much because they won't exist.  I can't wait for secondary stats to matter much less.  I don't know what Icy-Veins will fall into.  90% of the conversations here are about secondary stats.  I've failed as a forum mod.

[JvChequer 43]

I can't wait for Haste breakpoints to not matter so much because they won't exist.  I can't wait for secondary stats to matter much less.  I don't know what Icy-Veins will fall into.  90% of the conversations here are about secondary stats.  I've failed as a forum mod.

 

 

I can feel your pain.

[Liquidsteel 279]

It's not a reflection on you though, it's just how the wow community is wired.

 

The problem of having 90% of the discussion be about secondary stats/gemming/reforging is (in my opinion) two-fold. Firstly, the majority of people who come to forums seeking help always ask the same basic questions - "what spec should I play", "is my gemming ok?", "what stats should I go for?". The fact that secondaries don't really matter as a warlock just means that when people disagree, those same people will disagree with each other each time a fresh face asks the aforementioned questions. I tried on mmochampion to get people to consolidate such questions in one thread but it failed because new people don't read stickies and/or can't be bothered to search for answers. They just click on a forum and hit "new post" and get to work. If everyone who came here read the sticky and knew that stats don't matter and gems were a personal preference we wouldn't have the endless discussions.

 

The second reason is that with the patch being so old (3 months already) but with people still progressing (and likely playing destruction), there isn't really that much to talk about. Affliction and Destruction are pretty simple specs; any theorycrafting or whatever was done months ago, as were any spec specific tips, most of which are pretty intuitive anyway (once you realise shadowburn sniping for ember gain is a thing you automatically start sniping everything, for example). Nobody is really playing Demonology save a handful of us. We had a pretty decent debate a few weeks ago on play style (how much haste you want and how this effects your fury/soulfire useage) but we came to a conclusion with that.

 

Once Garrosh is dead (sometime this week) I'm switching to Demo full time and will get more stuck in with how to optimise the spec on the various heroic encounters, but having played it max once or twice per encounter (and some encounters not at all) it's kind of hard to come to any real conclusions. 

 

I'll make a conscious effort to start putting more into demo discussion, but for now we just have to live with the fact that people can and will continue to make new threads and start new discussions based on trivial things such as gems and stat weights.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Liquidsteel

[JvChequer 43]

It's not a reflection on you though, it's just how the wow community is wired.

 

The problem of having 90% of the discussion be about secondary stats/gemming/reforging is (in my opinion) two-fold. Firstly, the majority of people who come to forums seeking help always ask the same basic questions - "what spec should I play", "is my gemming ok?", "what stats should I go for?". The fact that secondaries don't really matter as a warlock just means that when people disagree, those same people will disagree with each other each time a fresh face asks the aforementioned questions. I tried on mmochampion to get people to consolidate such questions in one thread but it failed because new people don't read stickies and/or can't be bothered to search for answers. They just click on a forum and hit "new post" and get to work. If everyone who came here read the sticky and knew that stats don't matter and gems were a personal preference we wouldn't have the endless discussions.

 

The second reason is that with the patch being so old (3 months already) but with people still progressing (and likely playing destruction), there isn't really that much to talk about. Affliction and Destruction are pretty simple specs; any theorycrafting or whatever was done months ago, as were any spec specific tips, most of which are pretty intuitive anyway (once you realise shadowburn sniping for ember gain is a thing you automatically start sniping everything, for example). Nobody is really playing Demonology save a handful of us. We had a pretty decent debate a few weeks ago on play style (how much haste you want and how this effects your fury/soulfire useage) but we came to a conclusion with that.

 

Once Garrosh is dead (sometime this week) I'm switching to Demo full time and will get more stuck in with how to optimise the spec on the various heroic encounters, but having played it max once or twice per encounter (and some encounters not at all) it's kind of hard to come to any real conclusions. 

 

I'll make a conscious effort to start putting more into demo discussion, but for now we just have to live with the fact that people can and will continue to make new threads and start new discussions based on trivial things such as gems and stat weights.

 

I'll back to demo if they give to us a fuckin' pit lord.

[Zagam 1,982]

All three specs are fine.  It comes down to player preference.  I wish everyone realized secondary stats were just like specs....all are fine, it comes down to how well you can use them.  Meh, everyone wants to prove one way or another.  It's like arguing about homework and not giving a shit about how well you do during the exams.

[Zilthy 36]

I can't wait for Haste breakpoints to not matter so much because they won't exist.  I can't wait for secondary stats to matter much less.  I don't know what Icy-Veins will fall into.  90% of the conversations here are about secondary stats.  I've failed as a forum mod.

 

I guess that really depends on how you define success.

 

Is it that certain questions never get asked again?  Well, that seems pretty hard to achieve.

 

Is it creating an environment, where at least some have learned this?  Pretty sure you've succeeded there.

[Zagam 1,982]

Nope.  I've said for well over a year how I want people to focus on their playing.  Instead, the continued focus and conversation is on secondary stats, gems, Haste break points, and talents.  If the focus was on when you turned on and off Fire and Brimstone, when you used Havoc, how to deal with the RNG of Malkorok's fling-you-in-the-air mechanic in your opener, where Shadowburn was beneficial, or how to use the Gateway to help your raiders, it would be wonderful. 

 

I can't say that I haven't educated most on how to fix DPS issues.  I know a lot of Warlocks who are really phenomonal players now because they took what they learned here and applied it.  I know questions that have been answered are going to get asked.  It's a forum open to the public.  I just don't understand why 90% of the effort/discussion goes into the 10% of what matters even though I've tried so hard to swing the effort/discussion the other way.  I guess it's just a tendency for people to get comfortable with some misleading numbers and prove their own point.

[Liquidsteel 279]

But nobody is asking those questions. That's the problem.

 

I know how to deal with movement and unexpected knockups, I know when to FnB and how to maximise Havoc. Sure I mess it up sometimes but I know why and how to do well. I'm comfortable with all 3 specs and for the most part can figure it out for myself. I'm not the one seeking advice though.

 

The people who are seeking advice are the ones who bring up the discussions. Look at where they happen. It's always after somebody asks "what gems should I use?" or "which stat is better, haste or crit?".

 

People who ask these questions haven't been here for the past year. They have only created an account 10 minutes ago. I've only really taken interest here for the past month or so as well. This isn't a private chat where everyone is on the same page.

[Zagam 1,982]

I know how to deal with movement and unexpected knockups, I know when to FnB and how to maximise Havoc. Sure I mess it up sometimes but I know why and how to do well. I'm comfortable with all 3 specs and for the most part can figure it out for myself. I'm not the one seeking advice though.

That's why you're 13/14H.  That's why I'm 12/14H.  I just wish the 9/14N players would come here asking for how to play better, not how to itemize better.  Just depressing seeing a lot of effort go to waste. 

[Omaric 246]

It's not going to waste.  :D

 

Many of the threads asking about gemming/stats have had a tendency to turn into thoughtful conversation, which is all still stored here.  I'm sure there are plenty of people that soak up the useful stuff, but choose not to post.

[Liquidsteel 279]

It's not going to waste. 

 

Many of the threads asking about gemming/stats have had a tendency to turn into thoughtful conversation, which is all still stored here.  I'm sure there are plenty of people that soak up the useful stuff, but choose not to post.

Yeah this is what I meant, kinda.

 

The people who know what they are doing (and that may include people who learned from reading stuff here and applying it to themselves) aren't the one's repeating the same questions.

[Deimosphobos 1]

@ Zagam    I cant thank you enough for your threads on how dps can be improved, everything else didn't even matter for me, my problem was I wasn't playing right, now I feel very confident in my dps, and most of the time out-dps fellow locks in better gear...

 

as the OP for this thread, I don't think I was going crazy about secondary stats, as much as wanting clarification on the exact reasons "I" personally would want exp/mastery gems, how it would benefit my situation, im a stickler for numbers, so really that what it was about...my Ilvl is only 544 but closely examining my gear has revealed that I cant possibly sqeeze out any more Mastery from my gear...my main thing is and still is, whats better trading Intell for some haste/crit....im still on the table about that...

 

ANYWAYS

 

your advice and guides (along with many others) have helped me be a way more competent warlock, secondary stats are just a side item to the main thing which is actually playing the class properly and not half ass lol

[Errinkel 9]

It's not going to waste. 

 

Many of the threads asking about gemming/stats have had a tendency to turn into thoughtful conversation, which is all still stored here.  I'm sure there are plenty of people that soak up the useful stuff, but choose not to post.

Yeah, I don't post much, but reading all of this has made me much better. Particularly the "Fix your DPS" thread is just awesome.

I don't ask about the movement or FnB stuff because I figure that is something you have to just practice till you get right. But I would love to read more about that and how to deal with things like it if other people had specific questions.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Errinkel

[Vestion 8]

Can I just ask, what makes exp/mast a good choice for gemming? Dosnt exp give you hit? I find I have far too much hit as it is...