Emergency Descent Loop vs Seal of Primordial Shadow HC

[Jinxxed 0]

Hello

I've noticed that you have listed Emergency Descent Loop as BiS instead of Seal of Primordial Shadow

while the expertise is useless, I still think it's a better choice.

After reforge, it comes down to 111 Haste "our least important stat" vs (45 Agility "Raw&Socket bonus" + 52 Mastery + 53 Stamina)

[Alierya 94]

Sorry I just went to actually read the guide before replying...

I would agree with you and have the above over the VP ring.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Alierya

[Vlad 411]

In my opinion, Emergency Descent Loop is BiS (with Haste Rating reforged to Critical Strike Rating and a 50 agility gem in there, regardless of the socket bonus). Using it instead of Seal of Primordial Shadow will yield a small DPS increase.

[Damien 1,514]

Maybe I can shed some light on how we produce these BiS listings, as it can be error prone

First, we use common sense and that's enough for having a maximum of 2 options per slot (or 3 options for the 2 trinket or ring slots). Then, it is my task to go through dozens and dozens of battle.net profiles belonging to the best players I can find for that class (by browsing top guilds and top ranked players on worldoflogs). I don't trust simulation tools, so I try to avoid relying on them.

Usually, this gives me a clear indication of which of the two items is best. It can sometimes fail, as we've seen with Windward Heart not being listed as BiS for many healing classes because it did not show up on battle.net profiles due to its incredibly low chance to drop.

For these two rings, a similar situation occurs. Seal of Primordial Shadow has an extremely low chance to drop, while Emergency Descent Loop can be easily obtained.

Also, the stats on Seal of Primordial Shadow give a clear indication that this ring is meant for Feral Druids, Rogues, and Enhancement Shamans. So, a sensible raid leader would never let a Hunter roll on this ring against one of these classes. This contributes to lowering even more the chances that a Hunter will get its hands on the ring.

With all that said, it opens the debate of whether we should modify our approach to BiS listings to account for items that are only very slightly better but incredibly harder (who said impossible?) to obtain. Or maybe we could mention 3 rings and 3 trinkets instead of 2, when necessary. We make these BiS listings for people to find them useful, so if we end up misguiding our readers, it probably means that we need to change something :P

[Peelyon 416]

Maybe I can shed some light on how we produce these BiS listings, as it can be error prone

First, we use common sense and that's enough for having a maximum of 2 options per slot (or 3 options for the 2 trinket or ring slots). Then, it is my task to go through dozens and dozens of battle.net profiles belonging to the best players I can find for that class (by browsing top guilds and top ranked players on worldoflogs). I don't trust simulation tools, so I try to avoid relying on them.

Usually, this gives me a clear indication of which of the two items is best. It can sometimes fail, as we've seen with Windward Heart not being listed as BiS for many healing classes because it did not show up on battle.net profiles due to its incredibly low chance to drop.

For these two rings, a similar situation occurs. Seal of Primordial Shadow has an extremely low chance to drop, while Emergency Descent Loop can be easily obtained.

Also, the stats on Seal of Primordial Shadow give a clear indication that this ring is meant for Feral Druids, Rogues, and Enhancement Shamans. So, a sensible raid leader would never let a Hunter roll on this ring against one of these classes. This contributes to lowering even more the chances that a Hunter will get its hands on the ring.

With all that said, it opens the debate of whether we should modify our approach to BiS listings to account for items that are only very slightly better but incredibly harder (who said impossible?) to obtain. Or maybe we could mention 3 rings and 3 trinkets instead of 2, when necessary. We make these BiS listings for people to find them useful, so if we end up misguiding our readers, it probably means that we need to change something

Not to derail the thread too much, but I think when you really start getting to the top end (heroic items etc etc) then the player who generally is getting the items usually has a fair idea of what they want anyway.

For me the BiS item lists are a great way to quickly check gear for my alts that I dont really know that much about :P

[Alierya 94]

Thanks for the explanation.

You could keep your BiS listings as they are however possibly put a wee star next to something where a rare drop is a better and put the rare drop at the bottom of the table?

Hagara is a big meanie, he has several nice shinies he likes to keep in his pocket and not share out.

[Vlad 411]

To un-derail the thread, even though Damien's post is, of course, correct, I stand by my previous statement that Emergency Descent Loop is BiS.

[Tehstool 10]

Seal of Primordial Shadow

Is indeed BiS. You get more agility, the same crit and more mastery... It's a win win situation. Nevermind the haste because that is negligible due to various haste plateaus.

[Jinxxed 0]

In my opinion, Emergency Descent Loop is BiS (with Haste Rating reforged to Critical Strike Rating and a 50 agility gem in there, regardless of the socket bonus). Using it instead of Seal of Primordial Shadow will yield a small DPS increase.

Can you please explain why do you think it will yield a DPS increase?

because If the 111 haste is better than these stat combined, then it should be our best stat.

Maybe I can shed some light on how we produce these BiS listings, as it can be error prone

First, we use common sense and that's enough for having a maximum of 2 options per slot (or 3 options for the 2 trinket or ring slots). Then, it is my task to go through dozens and dozens of battle.net profiles belonging to the best players I can find for that class (by browsing top guilds and top ranked players on worldoflogs). I don't trust simulation tools, so I try to avoid relying on them.

Usually, this gives me a clear indication of which of the two items is best. It can sometimes fail, as we've seen with Windward Heart not being listed as BiS for many healing classes because it did not show up on battle.net profiles due to its incredibly low chance to drop.

For these two rings, a similar situation occurs. Seal of Primordial Shadow has an extremely low chance to drop, while Emergency Descent Loop can be easily obtained.

Also, the stats on Seal of Primordial Shadow give a clear indication that this ring is meant for Feral Druids, Rogues, and Enhancement Shamans. So, a sensible raid leader would never let a Hunter roll on this ring against one of these classes. This contributes to lowering even more the chances that a Hunter will get its hands on the ring.

With all that said, it opens the debate of whether we should modify our approach to BiS listings to account for items that are only very slightly better but incredibly harder (who said impossible?) to obtain. Or maybe we could mention 3 rings and 3 trinkets instead of 2, when necessary. We make these BiS listings for people to find them useful, so if we end up misguiding our readers, it probably means that we need to change something

I do agree with you that rogues, druid and shamans should take it first.

as for the rare part, I've seen this ring more than both trinkets and the bow (which I only saw once, BTW) and you have listed items for other classes as BiS, even though they are incredibly rare, I've not even seen some of them yet.

anyway, I was wondering which of the two items is better, regardless of how rare it drops or whether the hunter should roll on it with other classes or not.

thanks for the replies.

[Vlad 411]

Can you please explain why do you think it will yield a DPS increase?

because If the 111 haste is better than these stat combined, then it should be our best stat.

Femaledwarf's simulation shows it to be a roughly 60 DPS increase (depending on the set-up of the hunter you are changing it on, it can be slightly more or slightly less). While I don't particularly trust simulators (even though a large portion of the community does), Femaledwarf has been a very reliable tool for hunters for a long time.

Haste may be the worst stat for Survival Hunters after the soft cap (no argument there), but while Mastery is better, it's not outstandingly better. It's not as if Haste does nothing at all after the soft cap - it does a fair bit of things.

Finally, a large number of top-level Hunters are using Emergency Descent Loop. A large number are also using Seal of Primordial Shadow, though.

[Tehstool 10]

Femaledwarf's simulation shows it to be a roughly 60 DPS increase (depending on the set-up of the hunter you are changing it on, it can be slightly more or slightly less).

Are you basing this off of your hunter? Seal of Primordial Shadow is a huge dps increase for me. Female dwarf had it at a 589.96 dps increase for me over the Emergency Descent Loop . That is because of how haste works. Losing the haste off of the emergency descent loop effected my rotation positively thus increasing my dps. It all comes down to how much haste you have and what gear you have it on. If you are using your bis list then it should yield a dps increase of 622.94 according to my femaledwarf. So i still don't why you think that ring is still better.

[Tehstool 10]

Also a lot of the top hunters are using the Emergency Descent Loop because they probably have yet to get the Seal of Primordial Shadow. I'm pretty sure this goes for everyone, the drop rate is insanely low (much like the vial) and they are most likely waiting for the expertise users to get the ring first. My personal take on it is if it is that big of a dps increase for me, (my guild uses EPGP) I am BiSing that thing the minute it pops up because not even the 416 wrath of unchaining gave me that big on an increase.

Edit: also what is your reasoning? The 45 agility and 52 mastery gained = 97 stats. Now if losing 14 stats (in this case haste, our worst stat) is that big of a deal and outweighs the agility and mastery gained, then as Jinxxed stated haste should be our best stat.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Tehstool

[Vlad 411]

Are you basing this off of your hunter? Seal of Primordial Shadow is a huge dps increase for me. Female dwarf had it at a 589.96 dps increase for me over the Emergency Descent Loop . That is because of how haste works. Losing the haste off of the emergency descent loop effected my rotation positively thus increasing my dps. It all comes down to how much haste you have and what gear you have it on. If you are using your bis list then it should yield a dps increase of 622.94 according to my femaledwarf. So i still don't why you think that ring is still better.

I didn't use it on my Hunter, since it's not in BiS gear and it wouldn't have been really relevant. I used it on a random BiS hunter, where the ring exchange did not affect haste thresholds. Can you link your armory so I can run femaledwarf on it? Because a 622 DPS increase seems... a lot :)

[Tehstool 10]

I didn't use it on my Hunter, since it's not in BiS gear and it wouldn't have been really relevant. I used it on a random BiS hunter, where the ring exchange did not affect haste thresholds. Can you link your armory so I can run femaledwarf on it? Because a 622 DPS increase seems... a lot

My hunter is not in full bis, however i did use your bis list which gave me the result of a 622 dps increase.

http://eu.battle.net.../Devai/advanced

Just use that hunter, he's in full bis and you will see the dps gained is higher than 622 because of his racials and professions.

Edit: here is a (poor quality) video on the sim.

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv6TLIrt2cQ&feature

673.66 dps difference in favor of the Seal of Primordial Shadow so you don't need to strain your eyes.

You also didn't acknowledge that I said this:

where the ring exchange did not affect haste thresholds.

Are you basing this off of your hunter? Seal of Primordial Shadow is a huge dps increase for me. Female dwarf had it at a 589.96 dps increase for me over the Emergency Descent Loop . That is because of how haste works. Losing the haste off of the emergency descent loop effected my rotation positively thus increasing my dps. It all comes down to how much haste you have and what gear you have it on. If you are using your bis list then it should yield a dps increase of 622.94 according to my femaledwarf. So i still don't why you think that ring is still better.

Since you are surprised on how it could be that big of a dps difference, let me explain it for you. Thresholds is too broad of a statement for this kind of situation. Haste is a very weird stat. With that weirdness is fluctuating levels of haste that affects your rotation slightly but not as much as plateaus do. I was focusing on the levels of haste within said plateaus, not the plateaus themselves. If you use the same hunter I posted above earlier and switch out the Seal of Primordial Shadow with the Emergency Descent Loop it will yield the same dps difference, but for some odd reason if you take out pathing you gain 358.56 dps of it back. Then switch the rings out again and then put the point back into pathing, then update dps. You should get a dps increase of 315.1. So in reality all that the Seal of Primordial Shadow is doing is taking the necessary haste out that is negatively affecting your rotation while giving the dps increase that it is (315.1 dps) because it is still a better ring. So It is still a dps increase, just not as big as it says it is. With my responses on how the ring is BiS, I can conclude even with the haste thing that it is indisputably BiS.

Since I know people will call me out on the haste thing, I will defend myself now. If it weren't true, taking 1 point out of pathing wouldn't have yielded a dps increase with the select levels of haste that that gear had.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Tehstool