Outlaw Rogue PvP

[Valks 2,377]

This thread is for comments about our Outlaw Rogue PvP guide.

[Guest Mord]

This says it was verified to be accurate for 9.0.1, but Between the Eyes no longer stuns, which is the primary tactic used in the 2v2 and 3v3 comp descriptions.

 

[Mysticall 10]

  On 12/13/2020 at 10:18 AM, Guest Mord said:

This says it was verified to be accurate for 9.0.1, but Between the Eyes no longer stuns, which is the primary tactic used in the 2v2 and 3v3 comp descriptions.

 

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Hi! This is my mistake and I have updated the guide to reflect that you should primary be using Kidney Shot on the kill target and Between the Eyes to increase the damage you do to that target

[Guest SHJordan]

also... " It can also be used versus players using the  The Crucible of Flame Major Essence to remove the stacks it creates. "

 

Well... bfa?

[kimpa1993 0]

"Luckily for us Assassination Rogues in Shadowlands Season 3 the PvP vendor sells items with both Haste and Versatility in almost all slots. " Is this a misstake, do outlaw want set bonus or is this meant for the assa guide?

[Shadenox 0]

  On 4/24/2022 at 6:33 PM, kimpa1993 said:

"Luckily for us Assassination Rogues in Shadowlands Season 3 the PvP vendor sells items with both Haste and Versatility in almost all slots. " Is this a misstake, do outlaw want set bonus or is this meant for the assa guide?

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Hey !

It appears to be a mistake. Since both Outlaw and Assassination follow the same stat priority and thus pick the exact same parts (except for the weapons obviously) at the vendor I must have allowed myself a slight copy paste of this one paragraph after having redacted the one above that is Outlaw specific. And I must have missed it during proofreading. Thank you for pointing it out, it will be corrected !

And to answer your question Outlaw does want set bonus, just like Assassination. As I said, aside from the weapons and maybe the legendary you buy the exact same parts from the vendor, use set on the same parts, Unity on the same part, and so on.

Have a good day !

[Guest Rogue85]

When would be the best time to use shadow dance?  I assume at some point in the rotations you would use it at max energy and spam ambush?  Idk.  Can that be added to the ability selector /rotations? 

[Shadenox 0]

  On 1/10/2023 at 5:26 PM, Guest Rogue85 said:

When would be the best time to use shadow dance?  I assume at some point in the rotations you would use it at max energy and spam ambush?  Idk.  Can that be added to the ability selector /rotations? 

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You want to use it when going for a kill so ideally with sufficient energy to spam your globals during the entire Shadow Dance duration, as well as a Kidney Shot on the target to make sure you don't get stopped during the Shadow Dance. Depending on your buffs and whether Adrenaline Rush is up you'll need more or less energy before you press Shadow Dance to make good use of it.

And yes, the build will definitely be added, as well as its impact on the rotation. Several updates are needed at the moment !

[cmpayneful 0]

I am curious why the gearing section of this guide stresses gathering pieces with as much critical strike on them as possible, but the stat priority section calls out mastery as the priority.  I compared this to the Subtlety guide and that one did stress mastery in the gear section.  I am not any sort of advanced PVP player, so I generally look to follow the guides closely and don't want to misspend my valor.  Thanks for the hard work.

[Guest Million]

The stats part feels strange. In the ranking, haste is the second best secondary stat, but in the text it says "it remains the least desirable". So did they forget to change the text or is it meant like if I have 10-15%?

 

The stat priority for Outlaw Rogues in PvP is as follows:

1. Agility;
2. Versatility;
3. Haste (up to 10-15%);
4. Critical Strike;
5. Haste;
6. Mastery;

Agility is the best stat in all situations. Versatility is the strongest secondary stat because it increases your damage and reduces the damage you take. Critical Strike is the second best stat because, as Outlaw, your main ability,  Between the Eyes, deals bonus critical damage. Mastery is a nice stat as it adds significant passive damage to your rotation. Haste increases your Energy regeneration and auto-attack speed, leading to more damage, and also synergizes well with  Combat Potency for even more Energy regeneration and with  Mastery: Main Gauche for even more damage, but it remains the least desirable stat.

[Shadenox 0]

  On 11/16/2024 at 8:24 PM, Guest Million said:

The stats part feels strange. In the ranking, haste is the second best secondary stat, but in the text it says "it remains the least desirable". So did they forget to change the text or is it meant like if I have 10-15%?

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Hello!

This is extremely poorly worded on my end. A bit of context ! With The War Within the spell Adrenaline Rush was changed. Before it had a hidden effect (i.e not written anywhere in-game, but intended) and caused your GCD to be lowered by 0.2s, so going from 1s to 0.8s. This was extremely powerful because beyond the obvious "faster globals so more spells so more damage", it meant that on a 4s Cheap Shot you would get one extra global of damage before needing to stun again. The change to Adrenaline Rush is that the hidden effect now still lowers your global from 1s down to 0.8s but based on your Haste (like almost all classes get their global reduced by Haste). The Haste needed to reach that point is 25% Haste. It is generally considered that you will have the buff Take 'em by Surprise for an extra +10% Haste whenever it matters, so that means you only need 15% Haste. However, and that's why my sentence was made this way, beyond this the stat has very little offensive value compared to other stats in the standard builds. It is only here for this global reduction (and I say this now but there is a popular way to play that starts to become popular with full haste to abuse Authority of Depths uptime).

I hope it is a little more clear, and I'll make a better sentence in the guide!

 

[Guest Neoony]

There is a head in a shoulder currently btw


https://i.imgur.com/5xXDCli.png

[Guest Cutty Flamm]

I believe at Outlaw Rogue PVP guide (https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/outlaw-rogue-pvp-guide), section 4, for rogue changes, it is currently linking [Preemptive Strike], a demon hunter ability, and it should be linking [Preemptive Maneuver].

[Shadenox 0]

  On 3/3/2025 at 12:35 AM, Guest Cutty Flamm said:

I believe at Outlaw Rogue PVP guide (https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/outlaw-rogue-pvp-guide), section 4, for rogue changes, it is currently linking [Preemptive Strike], a demon hunter ability, and it should be linking [Preemptive Maneuver].

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You are right ! I will make sure it is fixed as soon as possible. Thank you !

[Guest Eviscerar]

Hi Shadenox,

There are some things in the guide that I think are outdated. Right now, Outlaw Rogue doesn't use Vigor or Lethality; the standard build is Supercharge + Forced Induction, and in the spec tree, they always use Killing Spree, as it's a good source of burst outside of crackshot windows.

Combat Stamina isn't used much either; I see more Outlaws using Swift Slasher.

I think it's important to mention in the talent notes that both Fatebound and Trickster are viable. They both have 50% usage and offer different things, such as more mobility in the case of Fatebound or reduced cooldown on Blind and Sap, as well as increased range if you use Trickster.

In the playstyle section, when the gates open, I think it's best to use Adrenaline Rush while stealthed, because if you use it out of stealth, you lose about 2 seconds of its duration while pressing Slice and Dice. I also think Blade Flurry shouldn't be used at that point. If the enemies are stacked, there's a risk of breaking the healer's sap when you use ambush on the kill target due to the flurry's AoE.

In the burst rotation, Killing Spree should be included somewhere; it does a ton of damage combined with Supercharge and Ghostly Strike.

In defensive techniques, I think grappling hook should be included. If you use Fatebound, you have 4 grappling charges, and that allows you to kite melees, get out of caster range, go behind a pillar to restealth, get close to your healer, interrupt a cast or CC when the enemy wants to set up a kill, or get out of Smoke Bomb.

Death from Above is also a good defensive option to avoid CCs.

In the gear section:

- In offhand, people use the Conquest Dagger.
- The most used embellishment is Elemental Focusing Lens.
- The most commonly used enchant is Authority of the Deep, followed by Radiant Power.
- The two most used gems are Deadly Sapphire and Quick Sapphire.
- The standard ring enchant is +315 Versatility.

[Shadenox 0]

  On 4/20/2025 at 8:13 AM, Guest Eviscerar said:

Hi Shadenox,

There are some things in the guide that I think are outdated. Right now, Outlaw Rogue doesn't use Vigor or Lethality; the standard build is Supercharge + Forced Induction, and in the spec tree, they always use Killing Spree, as it's a good source of burst outside of crackshot windows.

Combat Stamina isn't used much either; I see more Outlaws using Swift Slasher.

I think it's important to mention in the talent notes that both Fatebound and Trickster are viable. They both have 50% usage and offer different things, such as more mobility in the case of Fatebound or reduced cooldown on Blind and Sap, as well as increased range if you use Trickster.

In the playstyle section, when the gates open, I think it's best to use Adrenaline Rush while stealthed, because if you use it out of stealth, you lose about 2 seconds of its duration while pressing Slice and Dice. I also think Blade Flurry shouldn't be used at that point. If the enemies are stacked, there's a risk of breaking the healer's sap when you use ambush on the kill target due to the flurry's AoE.

In the burst rotation, Killing Spree should be included somewhere; it does a ton of damage combined with Supercharge and Ghostly Strike.

In defensive techniques, I think grappling hook should be included. If you use Fatebound, you have 4 grappling charges, and that allows you to kite melees, get out of caster range, go behind a pillar to restealth, get close to your healer, interrupt a cast or CC when the enemy wants to set up a kill, or get out of Smoke Bomb.

Death from Above is also a good defensive option to avoid CCs.

In the gear section:

- In offhand, people use the Conquest Dagger.
- The most used embellishment is Elemental Focusing Lens.
- The most commonly used enchant is Authority of the Deep, followed by Radiant Power.
- The two most used gems are Deadly Sapphire and Quick Sapphire.
- The standard ring enchant is +315 Versatility.

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Hi !

First of all, thank you for the detailed post (especially since you are correct on several of the points you raise).

About the standard talent build you are correct, I thought I updated it about 2-3 weeks ago already but apparently I did not. I fixed it just now, hopefully it will be published shortly. Supercharger + Ghostly Strike + Killing Spree/BtE spam during Crackshot are indeed the combinations Outlaw Rogues kill with at the moment. As for Combat Stamina vs Swift Slasher, Swift Slasher is indeed prefered because it's a bit of extra damage and resource generation, and Outlaw is tanky enough as it is to survive without Combat Stamina. However picking Combat Stamina over Swift Slasher is acceptable in some scenarios, and certainly won't impact offensive performance very much.

About the Heroic Talents I will leave it as "Fatebound recommended" for now, because that's what is overall the best. Yes, Trickster can have its moments (it does have a few cool perks) but high rated players pick it only in specific scenarios (barring the occasional Trickster enthusiast I suppose). In practise there isn't a 50/50 usage at high rating. Fatebound is vastly superior because while it is a decent talent tree damage wise Death's Arrival is way, way too good, and basically carries the entire tree. Mobility is probably THE most important thing to have in the game because it is what ultimately allows you to get where you need to be to use everything else that you have.

About using Adrenaline Rush before or after pressing Stealth, here are the two possible scenarios:
- one, you don't want to use Blade Flurry because you know you don't want to cleave, or you're not sure, so you want to wait in order to avoid breaking CC,
- two, you know you'll want to have Blade Flurry active in the opener for extra damage.
There is no rule written in stone that says "never use Blade Flurry opener" or "always do it", it's always a situation thing. In RMP, probably you never do it. In Outlaw Ele vs melee cleave with Arms Warrior that will instantly Bladestorm the moment you Sap the healer, and deny an opener, maybe you want it and simply open with a Cheap Shot on the Warrior, and a few seconds later a Kidney on the healer, and you get free cleave while doing so since you used Blade Flurry. Examples, right. In scenario number two, you HAVE to use Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry before Stealth, because Blade Flurry breaks Stealth. So you'll use Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry together, then Stealth immediately, then use Slice and Dice from Stealth. You won't lose any second on Adrenaline Rush this way. To account for that scenario I will exchange the Slice and Dice and the Stealth part on the guide to make it more clear. As for scenario number one, the one in which you don't want to use Blade Flurry, you can press all abilities together since Adrenaline Rush and Stealth are off the GCD, so the order is completely irrelevant. Just mash all 3 keys 😛 I did have to choose an order to write it though, and picked the one you commented.

About the burst, yes, I will include Killing Spree. Again, much like the current talent tree I believed I made the changes. I'm starting to believe my commits did not go through, I'll have to re read everything ! Fixing it now.

About Grappling Hook in defensive techniques, I disagree and won't add it. What you are saying about it is correct, don't get me wrong, but it does not make it a defensive ability. Otherwise, following that reasoning, Blind, Kidney, Gouge, Cheap Shot, Kick, Smoke Bomb, but also most CC or mobility spells in the game, as well as interrupts, could be categorized as defensive techniques because, well, strictly speaking you could use them defensively. This section is about the actual defensive abilities you possess as Outlaw Rogue.

About gearing, I did a few changes that well, also didn't go through sadly Fixing it now. However I'll type a few words here:
- while I prefer having a dagger in the offhand myself in the end it makes for as close to no difference as possible because Blizzard normalized weapon proc to make sure that Outlaw would have the same amount of procs per minute with either a slow or a swift off-hand weapon
- the most used weapon enchant at high rating on EU is Radiant Power, while it is about 50/50 usage on NA (both on ladders and in the recent tournament). Therefore, the guide will keep recommending Radiant Power 😛 
- while you are correct about the "most used gem", you have to keep in mind that what matters is your final stat distribution. If I were to choose to play a conquest part with low Haste and high Versatility over a crafted part with a 50/50 distribution, then I could use a Versatile Emerald over a Quick Sapphire, as it would be the same overall stats in the end (that's a simplified example, but what I mean to tell you is that depending on what items you choose, conquest, crafted, one more haste item that most people etc then you can adjust sockets and enchants so that OVERALL you have the correct amounts of everything). If you wanted, you could gear a Rogue that would have the same stats as one of the Rogues of any top player of your choosing, while having different items and sockets on most slots. In a PvP instance both characters would perform the exact same. So, yes, you may see differences between this guide, whatever Murlok.io shows at a given time, and your favorite Rogue player. But as long as those 3 (possibly) different gearsets bring you around the same stat distribution, it's alright 😉 I still changed the gem to make it less confusing, but remember what I just typed !

Thank you again for the post, because I wouldn't have noticed that my changes never reached the website. I'll try to find the time to re read all 3 Rogue specs because I suspect other things may be missing (I only fixed the ones mentioned in this post so far).  If you have any other question, comment, or wish to respond to some of the things I said, feel free.

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