Balance DPS. Ready to flip some tables.

[Lovecomplex 0]

Hey guys, 

 

I've been a boomy for almost all of MoP and I'm at my wits ends trying to figure out why my dps doesn't match my ilvl (as are so many others, i notice).

 

I've been following Icyveins for a while and been researching a few different stat weights for over a month now and I just can't seem to raise my sustained dps above 180-190k. I can burst our best dps out of the water at the start of each pull (around 600k) and then I just watch in horror and my dps drops to something around 180k (depending on boss). 

 

I use Elvui, WeakAuras, and AffDots (just got it). I currently raid Normal 10man but my guild has started doing Heroic and my RL has pulled me up saying that i'm not doing the dps that i should be (when simulated). 

 

Here is my armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/khazgoroth/Lovecomplex/simple

And logs: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/zNbj8xfCn9wcyWQR#fight=10

(I have linked Juggs fight, but you can hover over the name of the boss fight and it will show a drop down - check the other logs too if you wish)

*Click on 'Lovecomplex' and it will show a breakdown of the spells used etc.

 

 

Could it be my talent choice? Would picking up DoC help at all? Am I doing something ridiculously stupid? 

 

Edited January 11, 2014 by Lovecomplex

[Omnae 8]

Never use'd this type of logs system before, more adept to WoL. But doesn't seem to but a whole lot wrong from what I could find, Although:

 

1st: Using Incarnation+Celestial = bad, celestial needs to be used when Incar has ~15s left.

2nd: It doesnt look like you are using SS procs quick enough, w/4p SS's dmg should be higher than that. (should be using a /stopcast macro for the procs)

 

Why'd did you have 54 lunar shower procs?, seems like you are refreshing dots way to much. DoT uptime is fine tho.

 

As for talents Incar = more burst, Treants = better sustain. And DoC is terrrible, HotW all the way.

 

Realistically you should be pulling 250k+ min with you gear on most fights.

[Lovecomplex 0]

Thank you for replying! Firstly.. I've just started playing around with stacking Inc/CA. I think after that fight I realised the 15s difference and changed my starter to look like:

-move into luna ecplise

-hit Inc, starfall, dots, wrath etc (for 10-15s)

-then hit CA.

 

It made my starting burst extend a little bit more, but sustained remained the same. I've had a stopcast macro for SS for a while now but I've just made a WA to make a 'beep' sound when I get a SS proc, hopefully that will help me catch them quicker. I find when they proc, it procs 3 or 4 consecutively and it almost gets to the point where i miss some as a result. With my dot refreshing, I think that is the lag between my UI and the game... I tend to hit it twice or so to make sure it's definitely cast (bad habit!).

 

I will try Treants for the next raid (tomorrow night) and see if there's a notable difference. I'll post another log when it's up. 

 

I appreciate that you've spent your time to check out my logs and reply!

[Paloro 39]

When you go to use FoN, make sure you keep at least 1 charge on cd (meaning to never let it cap at 3 for a significant amount of time).

[Bonita 8]

too bad you dont use WOL. WOL is also being transfered to epeenbot. warcraftlogs unfort. not :(

 

you shouldnt really use CA only when Inc has 15 sec left.

INC does not increase your damage when you leave an eclipse

use CA when you reach 0 lunar, no mather if Inc has 22 or 17 secs left.

and use SSprocs immediately

try this:

talents: INC+HotW

 

- go for pre lunar 75

- 2 secs before pull use starfall and int-potion

- wrath to lunar

(you are now lunar eclipsed)

- hit INC and herb-haste-cd (build a macro!)

- cast SS (mostly Meta hasnt procced yet from wrath thats why)

- then apply dots (mostly meta know is procced, also they have herb and jadespirit)

- cast SF until pre lunar starfall has finished (mostly 1-2 SF casts)

- then Starfall

- hit SF / SS if proccs until 0 lunar

- use CA (!!! BEFORE META RUNS OUT...if meta will be finished in 2secs and you are not at 0 lunar, cast CA and eapply dots!)

- SF / SS until first lunar starfall has finished, then pop starfall

- SF / SS until CA has finished and you reached sun eclipse

 

general:

- use weakauras to track your INT and HASTE proccs (important for dots)

- if you wanna play treants same as above. and important: use treants only with meta procc and eclipse 15% haste buff, nbut

 do not wait until the treans are fully recharged to 3)

- get a higher uptime of your dots. @fallenprotectors you only have 80%. @shamas you went btter with 91 and 96%

 

next raid, if possible. please upload logs to WOL

[Omnae 8]

you shouldnt really use CA only when Inc has 15 sec left.

INC does not increase your damage when you leave an eclipse

use CA when you reach 0 lunar, no mather if Inc has 22 or 17 secs left.

Actually you should INC gives 25% for being in an eclipse, CA gives you both eclipse states plus 15%, and if you do your opener right after 2 starfalls have been cast INC is ~15s left and you should be out of an eclipse at this point, so then using CA puts you back into an "eclipse" state. If you use it early at said 22 or 17s then you are left with 8 or 2s where INC is being wasted because when CA is over you are 0 energy. So to be optimal its best to use CA at the 15s mark of INC.

 

important: use treants only with meta procc and eclipse 15% haste buff, nbut

 do not wait until the treans are fully recharged to 3)

 

Yes and No, treants benefit from your haste and spellpower, so best to try and use them all on pull with all your buffs then after than using them with at least one of the combinations of meta + int proc or nature's grace + int proc, and yes never let them sit at 3 stacks always keep at least 1 recharging unless you know that most or all of your proc's will be up in a couple seconds.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Omnae

[Bonita 8]

sorry mate but I kinda disagree in some things...

this only is important if the following described happens to you:

Today with higher gearscore greater than, lets say, 560 you wont need 15 secounds from lunarentry to lunar0

(including 1sec GCD of use of INC, 1+1secs gcd of both dots and 1sec gcd for using starfall)

I often find myself reaching lunar0 and having 20 secs left of INC. (while meta running off in 1-2secs)

if you keep on casting SF away from lunar 0 towards sun eclipse until INC remains to 15secs, 

you'll lose dps, because of 1 important fact and another fact if everything runs good for:

1. Meta will mostly be gone, if not reprocced.. So you'll miss 30%haste on the reapplied dots when using CA

2. if you hit CA at lunar0 and you have 20 secs remaining on the cloack, you will probably be reaching sun eclipse with 1-2 secs INC still active allowing you to have INC'd buffed suneclipsed dots

[Omnae 8]

you'll lose dps, because of 1 important fact and another fact if everything runs good for:

1. Meta will mostly be gone, if not reprocced.. So you'll miss 30%haste on the reapplied dots when using CA

If meta has reproc'd then you aren't losing any dot ticks. 

 

2. if you hit CA at lunar0 and you have 20 secs remaining on the cloack, you will probably be reaching sun eclipse with 1-2 secs INC still active allowing you to have INC'd buffed suneclipsed dots

By not refreshing both dots before INC + CA run out you are in fact losing dps, both dots buffed is better than 1 buffed.

 

So logically based on the examples you gave, your said "facts" are actually false.

[Emmakyn 0]

Hey!  So what everyone is telling you to do is the Lunar opener, which is only used BEFORE you get decent SoO gear / good RPPM trinkets / and the legendary meta gem.  I highly suggest you go to this site and watch this video:

 

http://www.warcraft.evrelia.com/balance-druid/

 

 

And definitely learn the Solar opener, which is way more appropriate for your item level.

 

(cut and pasted from Evrelia's Site)

 

Solar Opener

1. Use Astral Communion to enter Solar Eclipse before combat.
2. Place Wild Mushrooms under the boss before combat.
3. Cast Starfall.
4. Use a Potion of the Jade Serpent.
5. Cast Wrath so that it finishes casting as the boss is pulled.
6. Activate Incarnation and Celestial Alignment
7. Apply Moonfire, which will automatically apply Sunfire.
8. Use Wild Mushroom: Detonate during Celestial Alignment, ideally with trinket effects active.
9. Begin casting Starsurge and Starfire.
10. Cast Starfall again as soon as the first one ends.
11. Reapply Moonfire before Celestial Alignment ends if needed.

*If you can get a rogue to tricks you for your opener - you'll be the happiest owl around!

 

 

I see that you are using AffDots- Balance druids, make sure you are using it appropriately:

red - don't re-apply dots, you'll lose dps 

yellow - meh, if you need to reapply, you can

green - TOTALLY RE-APPLY DOTS

 

Remove your Glyph of Guided Stars, it's terrible!  It's really only good for not pulling accidental trash, but it's terrible for boss fights, because if you don't have an active dot on it, that mob won't be touched by starfall. (I made this mistake too)

 

Also be mindful of you who use Symbiosis on - do you have a lock in your 10-man? Definitely throw that on him for Thok - uninterrupted casting FTW!

 

Hope this helps!

 

[Kazistrasz 216]

Go go gadget +5 Rod of Necromancy!

[Omnae 8]

Hey!  So what everyone is telling you to do is the Lunar opener, which is only used BEFORE you get decent SoO gear / good RPPM trinkets / and the legendary meta gem.  I highly suggest you go to this site and watch this video:

 

http://www.warcraft.evrelia.com/balance-druid/

 

 

And definitely learn the Solar opener, which is way more appropriate for your item level.

 

(cut and pasted from Evrelia's Site)

 

Solar Opener

1. Use Astral Communion to enter Solar Eclipse before combat.
2. Place Wild Mushrooms under the boss before combat.
3. Cast Starfall.
4. Use a Potion of the Jade Serpent.
5. Cast Wrath so that it finishes casting as the boss is pulled.
6. Activate Incarnation and Celestial Alignment
7. Apply Moonfire, which will automatically apply Sunfire.
8. Use Wild Mushroom: Detonate during Celestial Alignment, ideally with trinket effects active.
9. Begin casting Starsurge and Starfire.
10. Cast Starfall again as soon as the first one ends.
11. Reapply Moonfire before Celestial Alignment ends if needed.

 

Why would you even suggest this as an opener, you are still casting starfire when in Inc+ca so there is no point to even start in solar eclipse along with the fact you will get 1 less starfall use because of it and if you try to say its because of shrooms thats a lie since their dmg changes automatically with proc's.

[Emmakyn 0]

Why would you even suggest this as an opener, you are still casting starfire when in Inc+ca so there is no point to even start in solar eclipse along with the fact you will get 1 less starfall use because of it and if you try to say its because of shrooms thats a lie since their dmg changes automatically with proc's.

 

I have tried the 2 openers and I did see a difference between them.  Have you tried them?  And I didn't say "it's because of shrooms," technically, I didn't give any reason of why it is better.  I just linked a great tutorial from a good guild and cut and pasted an opener.

 

You don't get one less starfall, you get the same, three is still three.  

 

Lunar: Starfall (1) on pull, then lunar eclipse, then starfall (2), then in Inc + CA you starfall (3).

Solar: Starfall (1) on pull, Inc+ CA starfall (2) when the other is up, when CA you are moving towards lunar and starfall (3) again.

 

The reason Solar is more powerful, in SoO trinkets + meta, is because at the beginning of the fight all your trinkets, meta gem, and pot are up and so you are using all of your best stuff for the full duration of CA.  

 

Yes a lunar opener is a bit more consistent, but the solar opener, if done right, will yield a larger burst.  

[Kazistrasz 216]

You're going to see the same procs (or lackthereof with RNG) regardless. From the logs I've seen, there's usually a significant gap between Starfire damage and Wrath damage on any given fight, which would lend itself to Solar Eclipse being weaker to use with everything live.  Second, your third Starfall is quite delayed with the Solar opener, which would give it LESS burst. You have your first Starfall pre-pull with either spec. With Lunar, you're getting your second one immediately, and then your third as soon as you've gained 100 energy to leave Eclipse. With Solar, your second isn't coming until you've left your first Eclipse and then your third isn't going to be until AFTER you make it to your next Eclipse once CA has ended. Second, starting in an Eclipse state is a just wrong. You gain a haste buff when you ENTER an Eclipse. Starting yourself without that buff is just gimping your DPS. Also, you're not going to be getting your DoC buff right off the bat from pre-casting a Healing Touch on yourself as it applies to your next Eclipse.

 

You can't argue with mechanics.

[Emmakyn 0]

And you are right, I didn't check the month of the original post.  Saw 2014, cannot believe it is March.  Didn't mean to necro a post.

 

I am not using DoC, I'm using Inc + HotW.  I know in some forums it said use this opener for DoC, but that was back in 2012, not for SoO + legendary meta + RPPM trinkets.  Having RPPM trinkets favor a Solar opener, whereas ICD trinkets favor the Lunar opener. (Yes, even though the Balance BiS trinkets one is ICD and one is RPPM).

 

You are correct, Starfire is more powerful than Wrath, but you are missing the point.  You aren't going into Solar to cast wrath on a single target, you are going straight into Inc + CA.

 

And it isn't complete RNG - typically, 2 1/2 minutes before a boss pull, all your procs are (hopefully) going to go off at the beginning of the fight.  So having them all up, for most of the duration of your 2 CDs is pretty nice.

 

And if you actually do both openers, you'd see that all the starfalls fall at about, if not exactly, the same time.

 

Lunar

Starfall (1): Pull

Starfall (2): @ 11 seconds - Under Lunar Eclipse + Inc + NG

Starfall (3): @ 22 seconds - Under Inc + CA + NG

 

Solar

Starfall (1): Pull

Starfall (2): @ 11 seconds - Under Inc + CA + NG

Starfall (3): @ 23 seconds - Under Lunar Eclipse + Inc + NG

 

You get Nature's Grace (NG) as soon as you are in CA, so as you say, you can't argue with mechanics.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Emmakyn

[Kazistrasz 216]

Using CA immediately wastes an entire Eclipse, which is also going to waste a big chunk of Inc when you're having to get into the next eclipse. RPPM and ICD trinkets should both proc very close to the start of the fight. Yes, ICD can screw you a little harder with RNG, but most of the time they're going to proc in your first couple spells.

 

The proper usage for CA and Inc is not to pop them both at the same time. You want to pop Inc with an Eclipse and then CA when the Eclipse ends. Inc only increases your DPS when you're in an Eclipse. CA gives you 15 seconds of double Eclipse, but leaves you having to build your way to your next one. It's a gigantic damage loss and waste of a CD to not use this way. Your average Eclipse is going to be about 10-12. That 10-12 seconds plus the 15 of CA gives you 25-27 of the 30 seconds of Inc. If you're using Inc and CA at the same time, you're less likely to get in a full Eclipse afterwards during Inc. Between that and the haste proc you don't have because you're starting the fight in an Eclipse... you're just shafting yourself.

[Fayled 0]

The proper usage for CA and Inc is not to pop them both at the same time. You want to pop Inc with an Eclipse and then CA when the Eclipse ends. Inc only increases your DPS when you're in an Eclipse. 

 

"Obviously you want to use Incarnation and CA together, that doesn't mean you want to use them in the same GCD. Anyone telling you otherwise is an idiot. Also feel free to look at some logs of good Boomkins, they are all using them together" 

 

An the reasoning for not the same GCD, is obviously because Inc uses a GCD. CA does not, so you use Inc then activate CA so you don't lose one GCD of damage.

The correct use of CA and Inc during an encounter: "You use Incarnation at the start of an Eclipse and use Berserking + CA when there are 15 seconds left on Incarnation or when you exit the Eclipse, whichever comes first." Which you mostly have correct, but you're talking about mid fight cool down use not an opener which is what is being discussed.

 

Between that and the haste proc you don't have because you're starting the fight in an Eclipse... you're just shafting yourself.

Dude, seriously, just stop you're in over your head. You get the haste proc from using CA. Are you really that daft?

The Solar opener is the best for anyone raiding with Legendary Meta + RPPM trinket. It has been tried and tested and proven by all of the top raiding moonkins, stop trying to argue with theory research that you clearly haven't done or don't comprehend.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Fayled

[Paloro 39]

Let's calm it down here a bit.  Reading both of your responses, you are indeed talking about the same kind of cd usage, just in different words.

[Fayled 0]

Let's calm it down here a bit.  Reading both of your responses, you are indeed talking about the same kind of cd usage, just in different words.

 

No we really aren't. An opener was being discussed, he's arguing mid fight mechanics and trying to justify himself. He's just wrong, and he needs to stop spreading misinformation that is just detrimental to people legitimately trying to improve.

An if it takes a hard approach to get that message across to him because he's just that thick he can't understand. So be it.

Also Log evidence of INC + CA used together: Ignore the few CA/Berserking uses, as this was taken from discussion about macroing CA + Beserking together.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Fayled

[Emmakyn 0]

 

Using CA immediately wastes an entire Eclipse.

 

Not really, you are just skipping a Solar eclipse, which isn't that great for single target.  Also, when you are finished with Inc + CA, it is moving you towards Lunar, not Solar.  Not sure if you were aware of that.  And when finished with Inc + CA you usually have one or two shooting star procs that'll move you over to Lunar very quickly, so your next Starfall is still under Inc and you get another NG up.

 

Between that and the haste proc you don't have because you're starting the fight in an Eclipse... you're just shafting yourself.

 

Nature's Grace is the haste bonus you get upon entering an eclipse, you also get this in CA, so there is no shafting going on.  You are still getting the haste bonus.

[Kazistrasz 216]

Fayled, an inability to be civil says more about the person being hostile than the person they have an issue with, generally speaking. If all of the top boomkin players are doing something, then come up with some sort of explanation for someone that's wrong beyond calling people names. Most of my few hundred posts are in the warlock forum, but excepting how much Boomkin has apparently undergone changes from the earlier weeks of the tier I generally know druid specs as well as my druid is my current main for the rest of the tier until we can get Paragons wrapped up and get through Garrosh. They're almost all (with a few jokes being the exceptions and the occasional question even I have) posts to help other people. If you've been on these forums much at all, you'd have seen me to know the kind of player I am. You have two posts total, both posted simply to be insulting.

 

Let me explain to you how you cost yourself credibility and how to actually handle a situation.

 

One: Boomkins are being played differently now than they were a couple months ago. Start with just showing the log part of your response. This is the only part of your two posts that was worth posting.

 

Two: Don't ever stop with "well, so-and-so is doing this." Show the math and explain what actually makes it different in a way that people can take you seriously.

 

Three: If someone is wrong and arguing on a false assumption, take the approach that they're simply operating on misinformation. When you just accuse people of trying to lead people astray, you look like more like the troll you're trying to make the other person out to be.

 

I'd still like to see the actual math, because a lot of it doesn't make sense. What about the RPPM makes the difference when you're going to get your trinkets at the start for RPPM and ICD alike, excepting awful RNG. If you're just going to skip it, I'm not sure what the point of even starting in the Eclipse is. 

[Emmakyn 0]

I'd still like to see the actual math, because a lot of it doesn't make sense. What about the RPPM makes the difference when you're going to get your trinkets at the start for RPPM and ICD alike, excepting awful RNG. If you're just going to skip it, I'm not sure what the point of even starting in the Eclipse is. 

 

A few questions for you:

 

1) Do you, or have you, played/mained a balance druid this or the last tier, or even this expansion?  I can see that you main a resto druid, but your off spec is guard.  And a few things you have commented on have made me wonder if you fully understand how all the spells work and the general play of a balance druid.  I do not say this to be a jerk, I am just asking.  I have been playing a balance druid for a few years and I can honestly say I know zero about Guard and Feral.  I know enough to off heal for resto when asked, but I am not proficient at all and I'm sure you could even give me a lot of tips on how to heal better.  I mained a warlock for 6 months, I was excellent at demo, but terrible at aff and decent at destro.  Just because you play a class, doesn't mean you have all the knowledge of all the specs.

 

2) Have you even tried the 2 openers?  Because if you have, like I have, you would see a big difference in the initial opener burst.  Yes, you do have to have the gear to tries these, because this is the whole point of all these posts.  Lunar is a lot better for lower ilvls/no leg. meta/no RPPM trinket.

 

3)  Do you really need the math?  I am only asking this because you seem so adamant to say Lunar is better, when there are very little posts that show Lunar opener is currently the best.  There are a lot of old forums saying "all balance druids do this opener, it is the best" - love top guild raiding druids, but a lot of balance druid forums aren't kept up to date, so you have to spend the time sifting through them.  And if you do that, you'll see that now, with proper gear, that SoO favors the Solar opener.  I can, and have, given a link from a top raiding guild which has an excellent video on balance druids and explains the Solar opener.  

 

You also haven't given any math to prove that Solar isn't the best.  You just have said you have looked through logs - and it was only in relation to wrath vs starfire dmg.  Anyone who plays a balance druid knows that starfire hits way harder than wrath.  I also have looked through logs and see many, excellent raiding balance druids doing the solar opener (Inc + CA being used together, immediately).  Fayled even posted logs showing that Inc + CA are being used together.

 

Another link for a Balance Guide (which says to use Solar opener, but doesn't give the math you are looking for):

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/987162-Moonkin-Guide-5-4-Edition

 

---

 

The sad thing about all these posts, even though it has been fun to discuss, is the main poster probably isn't ever going to read this.  I'm sure he still has on Glyph of Guided Stars (which is good for not pulling trash, but terrible for boss fights (except for H. Malkorok)).  Next time I post, I'll be sure to make sure the forum thread is current.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Emmakyn

[Kazistrasz 216]

Yes, I've played Boomkin this tier, but not within the last couple months. My off-spec changes frequently simply because I have so many sets of gear. Right now I have bear because it's easier to find groups for a flex when I can heal or tank rather than heal or DPS. I know what the spells do, but the information I'd played with last is now out-of-date with updated gear.

 

I do experiment with things, but most of it is simply a "feel" type of thing I'm after. Since this is apparently a gear-scaling thing and my off-spec, my results will be skewed. Independent testing for a "try this out" type of thing is difficult to get meaning results for, at the moment, simply due to RNG-heavy environment we play in with the very tiny sample size we provide. On my lock I'll see anywhere from 600k to 1mil on the DPS meter during the opener just due to what procs when.

 

Math and simulations are the most reliable way to show something. All of the sources at the beginning of the tier that I knew of for Boomkin were still saying Lunar at the start. It's the same kind of confusion that would happen if Zag, Locky, and I started telling all of the warlocks to open with a pre-cast Chaos Bolt and some other stuff totally different and assure them that it's good because some site's guide says so. People often quote Sparkuggz's site, not taking into account the audience he's writing it for (lower skilled warlocks that really need a guide to tell them that Chaos Bolt hits harder during a trinket proc) and not people that can play the game. Some of the information Evrelia's people put out falls into that category. Theorycrafters aren't theorycrafters because they just post stuff and say it's correct because I'm in a high-end guild. They're theorycrafters because of all the calculations, simulations, etc. that go into their information that they usually publish along with their guides (or at least partially publish).

 

I wasn't saying one Starfire hits harder than one Wrath. It's a slower spell so it has to be the case. I was saying that since it does so much more damage in any fight, why would you not focus on using that when you have everything live at the start of a fight (or at least should have everything live)? That first comment was just misunderstanding what you were saying - I thought you were saying to go through the Solar and then hit CA.

 

You are correct that there is a lack of good sources for boomy. That level of theorycrafting may not even be out there at the moment, simply because a lot of good theorycrafters across all classes no longer play or have switched their focus. That also makes it harder to tell when a source is credible if they aren't putting out their information. I know a lot of people in a 14/14H guild that I wouldn't trust to tell me what color the sky is, let alone how to play a class/spec.

 

I'm not saying I can't be wrong, because I can be. The information I was working on was out of date and I didn't realize it changed so much in a couple months.

[Fayled 0]

I'm really not looking for any credibility, you can take the information provided to you or you can not. I was simply assisting my friend who tried her best to be helpful and provided people with the correct information for you to just shut it down based on "mechanics" as you say. That being said you talk about credibility and what I need to provide to be credible, while shooting down someone else with nothing of what you said should be there provided. That's hypocrisy. 

 

She is obviously far nicer then I am, and I have no illusions about my character. I am abrasive and that's fine by me.

 

As this seems resolved, I wish good luck to you on your progression and I will be off.