Higher haste arcane

[lynx 19]

Has anyone tried playing arcane with about 42% haste (on multitarget fights as well)? If so, what's your opinion on this build?

 

I tried it yesterday and it seemed fun enough, much more pleasant than the usual 30% I see (and tried before). Felt a lot less restrictive. And when under meta, 4 stack camping is becoming hilarious (with the 4pc bonus of course).

[voltaa 16]

While I haven't actually tried this build, it is far from an optimal build to be using.  You will be able to do decent single target damage, close to what you would be doing with a mastery build even, but as soon as more targets are introduced into tthe fight, the gap between a mastery build and a haste build gets wider and wider.

[lynx 19]

I see. Though that's what I want to find out.

From purely theoretical point of view, this build should work well.

 

Since dps for most spells at 100% mana (except barrage) is determined by:

CONST*(1+0.36+M/300/100)(1+H/425/100)

Assuming no AMP trinket and with mage armor.

 

Let's say that I reforge/regem and move points only from mastery to haste (or vice versa), so M+H=constant amount of points.

The expression above is maximized for:

H=points/2 - 850

M=points/2 + 850

Which for 30k nets ~89% mastery and ~40% haste (raid buffed)

 

If frost armor is used then:

H=points/2 - 2530

M=points/2 + 2530

For 30k nets ~84% mastery and ~46% haste.

 

AMP trinket changes the values a little in favour of haste.

Interestengly, frost armor nets higher value of the expression than with mage armor.

 

With multiple targets the barrage does suffer from the loss of mastery, but on the other hand NT is stronger. Not sure whether it balances out though.

There's also the issue of not being just above the breakpoint, which shortens bomb duration a bit.

 

I'll run a few tests during the weekend and see what I can come up with. So far I could match my numbers from the frost spec in most cases, which I already consider a good thing.

[Elro 47]

I would just like to point out that bombs aren't stronger with haste, they just gain more ticks, if you reach the right breakpoints. With Mastery, the bomb's damage increases directly, as it scales with spell power. Bomb snapshotting with procs and Arcane's Mastery nets massive dot damage, more than you would get with a haste build.

[lynx 19]

I would just like to point out that bombs aren't stronger with haste, they just gain more ticks, if you reach the right breakpoints. With Mastery, the bomb's damage increases directly, as it scales with spell power. Bomb snapshotting with procs and Arcane's Mastery nets massive dot damage, more than you would get with a haste build.

 

Bomb's single tick damage is just like of any other spell which scales only with SP, but the total damage of the bomb scales with haste (more ticks = more total damage). This was made so to not let bomb's duration be too short, since its dps must scale with haste.

Either way, bomb's dps scales linearly (not through breakpoints) with haste, due to shortened duration between breakpoints.

 

The funny thing about snapshotting, is that if you compute dps increase in % then current mastery and haste don't matter. And SP matters only for int bonuses (with obviously the more SP you have the less % you gain). This basically means that if for some reason haste build does more dps than mastery build, it will continue to do so with snapshots.

[Elro 47]

I just go off of what Blatty says, in this regard. He swears mastery trumps haste, especially in multi-target encounters. Considering his experience, I'm willing to believe him. It's just too bad he never posts on here...

[lynx 19]

Yeah, I know that mastery is the go-to build, and it indeed works very well (especially against multiple targets). I just never was too thrilled playing it because it always felt sluggish to me, so I thought about investing more in haste and see what can be done.

 

Two things I already know:

1. High haste is harder to manage than mastery, since casts are short (especially with meta) and there's very little time to look at your mana values to make some decisions such as, whether to barrage, fire two consecutive missiles and only then to blast, or just blast with one stack of the 2pc buff, add our dot snapshots to that and it nearly overloads you. Those are exactly the same decisions I make with mastery build, but then I can plan better which leads to less mistakes.

2. It's a lot more fun!  Bias of course...

 

What I suspect is that more dps from NT is not enough to offset the lost damage from barrage on multiple target fights. But since most fights are either single target or have priority targets I don't think it invalidates the approach.

[voltaa 16]

I just go off of what Blatty says, in this regard.

 

Some of the information in the main guide on this site that he reviews is wrong though, I would actually much prefer if those guides were "peer reviewed" rather than just one person.

[Oltier 471]

Some of the information in the main guide on this site that he reviews is wrong though, I would actually much prefer if those guides were "peer reviewed" rather than just one person.

Could you shed some light, please? :) I mean what are you referring to?

[voltaa 16]

 

 

Firstly in the gear/BiS section it says to go for BBoY and PBoI as trinkets, the value of KTT (dark shamans trinket) is much higher than that of BBoY, with the normal warforged version of Toxic Totem simming equal/above the heroic non warforged version of BBoY. BBoY gives higher potential maximum output but averaged out will do less.

My second issue with the gearing section is that it says to forgo the 4 set in favor of high ilvl pieces and while this is true, it's also only certain pieces. The case where it is true is when using legs and chest as your 2 set of tier and using Fusespark gloves, Ebon Ritual Hood and Dou Dou Chong shoulders and they must all be warforged, if this is not the combination and ilvl of gear you are using then the 4 set will do equal or more damage compared to using three offpieces.

For the recommended armor it just says mage armor is best. While this is true for a good portion of fights this tier, in purely single target situations frost armor is your go to (provided 9522 haste or above).

My final issue is with the rotation section which doesn't bother to explain the change to the rotation that occurs once you have 2 pc t16 equipped.

Taken directly from what I posted on the actual guide thread

[Ghanjo 37]

I just go off of what Blatty says, in this regard. He swears mastery trumps haste, especially in multi-target encounters. Considering his experience, I'm willing to believe him. It's just too bad he never posts on here...

 

He did post, once, on a topic much like this one.

 

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/539-arcane-mage-54/page-5#entry27557

 

While I respect his skills and knowledge about the mage class, the end of the post where he says something like "I am the übermage, everything I say is fact, never question anything I say ever" is a bit too arrogant for my tastes, so I really don't mind that he doesn't post in here :)

[Akraen 230]

Some of the information in the main guide on this site that he reviews is wrong though, I would actually much prefer if those guides were "peer reviewed" rather than just one person.

 

I agree with you on this and am working on making it happen.