Transitioning into Heroics and a raid leader dilemma.

[Ezzme 0]

Fairly long post inc...

 

So my guild is fairly newly formed, just started raiding together at the start of December and got our first Garrosh kill sometime at the end of December. We were fairly undergeared in a few at the start and have had our last DPS spot filled by multiple people due to recruits either not working out or showing up.  

 

We've one shoteverything on normal for the last few weeks and essentially only use up one of our 3 raid days (2-3 hours each) leaving a ton of time doing nothing but playing alts. Last week we did do 2 heroics (an hour each) but again had a spot which needed to be pugged forcing us to settle for an under geared player in an OS spec. We got very close to an Immerseus kill and realized after a few attempts Norushen was out of the question with the pug and still were able to finish up the instance with a day and a half of scheduled raid time left. 

 

This was our 1st week even attempting heroics and despite the set back our numbers seem to be on par with what I usually see other groups pulling in terms of DPS and Heals as we found a hopeful permanent DPS to fill our last position. I also like to think we're a quick learning group that knows what they're doing and can get a fight down with some attempts under our belt.

 

Our raid lead though is extremely reluctant to put in the attempts on bosses and being very conservative in that regard. This week he wants to do 3 bosses, Immerseus (which as I said is close and should go down quick), Norushen and Sha of Pride. We're hoping to spend 1hr each on these bosses which is essentially 1 raid day for us meaning we would again be left with a day + of nothing to do after full clearing Galakras+.

 

My suggestion was to do the 1st day as normal, but then spend the 2nd day attempting an extra boss in Galakras which looks to be a fairly simple fight in execution and then use the remaining few hours to clear the instance no matter the outcome of the first 5. I was quickly shot down as was another member from ourgroup by our raid leader and told we will do so next week. I informed him it makes no sense not to maximize our scheduled time when we need little to no gear from the normal mode bosses and can easily use our last day to clear dedicating the first 2 days to actual progression. 

 

So my question is, what is a good estimate in terms of gear and meter numbers to start full on heroic progression and how should I approach my raid lead about this issue. I know that as a group if the issue is brought up when we're all together most will side with what I've said. 

 

 

[Brewmonksta 157]

Without any knowledge of your raid comp 10 vs 25, i am assuming 10 man etc.

 

If you can kill Garrosh and are 1 shotting everythign else then you should have no gear problems doing the first 5 Heroic bosses(imo everything to malkorok has no real gear check). In order of ease (IMO) Norushen > Galakras > Immerseus > Protectors/Sha.

 

If you are clearing out that easily, as in one night/raid then why not spend 2 nights pushing progression then clear out on the third.

 

Execution is king for heroics and gear not so much until further along.

 

As for approaching the raid leader, i would suggest it to him/her and see the response you get. If the group wants to do it they will. Some guilds however aren't very progression orientated and the thought of 2/3 nights on progression is absurd and even more crazy would be extending a lockout!

 

Best advice for heroic progression is persist and dont change the strategy every 2 pulls. Look up the guides and videos that are out there and persist.

[Ceraius 34]

Brew makes excellent points. However the order of bosses I'd recommend myself is a little different, but then again the easy bosses are different for many people/guilds.

 

Our guild moved to heroics after our first garrosh kill maintaining the last of our three raid days as the normalclear, but we soon dropped even that and have recently just been focusing on heroics without clearing on the last day.

 

I'd personally suggest Immerseus - Norushen - Protectors - Sha/Galakras in the case you don't want to do them in order. Doing them in order is very viable too. Thats how we did it.

 

As far as tactics changes go the ones that have the least impact going from normal to HC would be Norushen and Protectors imo. They play out almost if not completely identical to normal tactics.

[kitsu 55]

we took a bit to get immersius and then worked protectors to get sharp. we have definitely taken it slow but now we kill 7 bosses on heroic in one day. group makeup is a big factor and strong players in certain roles can really carry a team on reg, but once you get to heroic holes can show up a lot easier.

 

the hierlooms from a full clear are tempting and it is nice to relax a bit. we have a lot of weeks before WoD. a little patience on your end might be necessary. especially if a decent number of people are missing a few things from the later bosses. i have run a group for a while now and the only thing that really bugs me is complaining. voicing concerns is one thing but bitching about a plan thats one week off from your expectations might be the wrong battle to pick.

 

you never know what kind of stuff ppl deal with irl. just keep voicing your concerns at the outset of each week, but do your rl a kindness and try not to complain once they say the matter is decided for that lockout. 

[Ezzme 0]

Thanks for the replies

 

We're a 10 man group, sorry for forgetting to give that information. Thanks for the advice, I had a feeling we've been moving slow due to watching a lot of the videos and higher end guilds progression. I know we're not them and they've been raiding together for a long time, etc... but 3 weeks of Garrosh farm with essentially an hour of heroics on 2 bosses is too slow imo. 

 

I see the avg ilvl other guilds are moving into heroics with and I see us on par or even ahead in many cases in terms of gear and the fact we have nothing down is what prompted me to start asking if we can start doing some real progression. 

 

Our group avg ilvl is probably around 560, if not a point of so below. When I mentioned needing items I probably could have been more clear, for the most part the things people want are more for BIS chasing and not replacing raid finder gear or anything like that. Our healers do their jobs well, our tanks as well and our DPS is in a good spot too.

 

And as  Brew said the first 5 are fairly simple fights that I've watched a ton of footage and and see more as just a matter of time/attempts put in instead of a gear check. Our raid leader is fairly pessimistic being extremely negative and underestimating our guilds capabilities, he's not a dick or anything it's just this isn't the first time where he lowballs us as a group. 

 

He's 9/14H due to getting a spot in another guild on his other toon, I feel as if them having the first few fights on farm has skewed the way he looks at progression. Thinking we need to get BIS pieces in every slot for every player and not downing it in a few hours being a failure we can't recover from.

 

He's never really raid led and is sort of stubborn but he's a fairly good friend who've I've been playing multiple games with for years and i'm sure that with something like your guys suggestions he can be persuaded to push a bit harder. I feel this is an important thing to fix now as we hope/plan to start off WoD pretty quickly and i'd rather not run into us waiting to progress due to unwarranted precaution.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Ezzme

[Ceraius 34]

Imo, only farm for normal BiS if you don't even plan to go heroic, as in most cases the ilvl increase warrants an upgrade anyway. And the ilvl of your raid group is more than enough to move on to heroics.

 

Seeing he's been doing heroics already they might be easy for him on a personal level but as a raidleader he needs to acknowledge that it might not be so for the rest, and be prepared to go through the progressing process again.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Ceraius

[Brewmonksta 157]

If you are good friends then perhaps approach him alone before or after raid. Do a bit of research yourself and go to him with a solution rather than a problem. Have a look at optimal norushen rotations, look at galakras groups for tower/interrupts.

This might help it along.

You can also possibly approach your friend about being a co leader and talk about the direction the raid team is aiming for. Heroic? Casual? Get on the same page and push forward.

:)

[kitsu 55]

the first few times we killed immersius, it was as he enraged. and protectors put us through a lot of wipes, but wiping on heroic is the only way to sharpen up to the requirements of heroic. my group has what most would consider a pretty bad comp for a ten man, 3 mdps and no warlock, but we still do alright. i dont think 3 normal clears is totally insane. i dont think its that bad to do 5 clears before just doing heroics all week.

 

at 560 if everyone has at least one good trink and a weapon, thats pretty much geared enough. one thing i did enjoy doing when my group first started heroics was bringing my dk in for a reg spoils kill. after that we just worked on heroics until there was 2 hours left on our last day and we would start up on reg at thok with the dks id. just have the id toon reform the group as lead, reset all instances and walk in first. hearth when you get a few more ppl inside and hop over to your main. the id toon can hold the id indefinitely and nobody has to miss out on trinks, tier, and heirlooms.