Thoughts on Symbiosis

[Peelyon 416]

Just a little background first. Obviously with looking through Vlads guides on new druid abilities etc, plus all the hype around it elsewhere I thought we could have a little discussion about the new ability

Symbiosis

Although not a complicated spell there are obviously a lot of permutations as to what abilities can be used and gained.

A full list of them is found HERE as mentioned in Vlads guides.

Also here is a video from Fatboss guides that I watched the other day which is great for those that enjoy visual aids :)

So if you've managed to do a bit of reading, what do you think?

On a plus side I think its really good that Blizzard are being bold enough to introduce a new type of ability that makes you think a bit more. I've been really worried about the "dumbing down" of a lot of the game over the past expansion or so (removing reagents, certain items needed in professions like enchanters rods etc). It just seemed that they were making the game more and more accessible for those that couldnt be bothered to go out into the world and discover things and learn from mistakes etc.

On the flip side I think it is a little bit extreme just allowing one class to have so much power. Up until recently we didnt have a druid in our group at all (just the way things panned out). I've a feeling that with the versatility of the spell you will see a lot of raid leaders asking for a number of players to reroll their druids just to offer up the chance to have various other spells available.

Some of the combinations are extremely overpowered and although I don't think there will be any Ultraxion style fights per say there are obviously a lot of nice cooldowns that the druids can share with other players. I'm not so sure if this is a good or bad thing, I've just got a feeling that it will make so many players want to play druids and I'm not sure if this is the best thing.

I understand its not the biggest problem in the world but it may become a bit awkward if your new raid groups have 2-3 druids and 2-3 monks, gear will be very interesting to say the least! ;)

I think for PvE and PvP will have enough spells to use in varying situations but it may give raid leaders / arena battles plenty of headaches early on trying to work out what will be the best to use.

I'm on the fence with this one. From a raid leaders point of view its great that youve more to think about (I think) and its nice to know that your choice (or your druids choice) could be the difference of killing a boss or not.

So - heres to levelling my 65 druid who is currently a glorified guild banker!

Over to you people :)

[MadMonk 154]

There are some really great cominations, for example: tank druids can put symbiosis on a DPS DK and get Bone Shield, while the DK gets an awesome ability to spread their diseases (Wild Mushroom: Plague).

Other combinations are less good: healing priests get Cyclone (changed in a recent build from Entangling Roots) while the druid gets a spell that is very situational. These combinations aren't always very good for PvE which is a shame because it means that some classes/players will never be able to use this cool ability.

Most combinations will also depend on the fight, if you have a fight with lots of aoe damage then druids can put their symbiosis on a shadow priest who gets Tranquility. If that druid is feral then he also gets Dispersion which is an awesome defensive cooldown to mitigate the damage (s)he takes.

[Peelyon 416]

There are some really great cominations, for example: tank druids can put symbiosis on a DPS DK and get Bone Shield, while the DK gets an awesome ability to spread their diseases (Wild Mushroom: Plague).

Other combinations are less good: healing priests get Cyclone (changed in a recent build from Entangling Roots) while the druid gets a spell that is very situational. These combinations aren't always very good for PvE which is a shame because it means that some classes/players will never be able to use this cool ability.

Most combinations will also depend on the fight, if you have a fight with lots of aoe damage then druids can put their symbiosis on a shadow priest who gets Tranquility. If that druid is feral then he also gets Dispersion which is an awesome defensive cooldown to mitigate the damage (s)he takes.

I think the shadow priest / feral druid combo of Dispersion and Tranquility is possibly one of the greater combos for sure!

I think part of my negativity is the fact that I only get a cyclone whether I'm disc or holy :P!

Just feels that this will become a "must have" mechanic for a lot of progression guilds, not sure if thats a good thing or not.

[Zagam 1,982]

Just feels that this will become a "must have" mechanic for a lot of progression guilds, not sure if thats a good thing or not.

I could not agree more with this sentiment. I am SO sick of Blizzard implementing things that feel required rather than not. They stated "bring the player, not the class." Pardon my French, but BULLSHIT. How many guilds took Warrior tanks over DK tanks for top tiered progression? How many took Warlocks over Mages for Heroic Spine? While I understand that class balance is difficult for every fight, there should never be more than a 5% difference from the best DPS to the worst DPS on any fight except for heavy AoE fights...some classes just have more tricks. Even this could be fixed, but never has an AoE situation arose in a tight, high end progression fight.

If you guys haven't seen this, you'll love to see how varied heroic raiders are. Here is a list of the specializiations by class with at least an item level of 400 in Dragon Soul to date as of June 15 (obtained via guildox.com)

Warrior - 10903

Protection - 3147

Arms - 6069

Fury - 1687

Warlock - 7739

Destruction - 3527

Demonology - 2175

Affliction - 2037

Shaman - 15828

Enhancement - 1660

Elemental - 5485

Restoration - 8683

Rogue - 21921

Subtelty - 2874

Combat - 17038

Assassination - 2009

Priest - 18696

Holy - 2253

Discipline - 6367

Shadow - 10076

Paladin - 18067

Holy - 9879

Protection - 3330

Retribution - 4858

Mage - 12538

Frost - 96

Fire - 9213

Arcane - 3229

Hunter - 15712

Survival - 14420

Marksmanship - 680

Beast Mastery - 612

Druid - 16498

Feral - 5379

Restoration - 5768

Balance - 5351

DK - 12432

Frost - 4449

Blood - 5946

Unholy - 2037

I find these numbers staggeringly hilarious. How can there be twice as many COMBAT Rogues as ALL Warlocks put together? I know I'm biased in that comparison, but you can clearly see here where the players are playing. Surely Rogues are skewed because of their legendaries, but look how many Warrior tanks there are. Same number as Paladin tanks...why? Because look at the Druid and DK tank 4 piece set bonuses! They're vastly superior to the other two and even game breaking to a point. We used a DK tank and a Druid tank for H Ultraxion at 5% nerf and our Holy Paladin solo healed the raid. That shouldn't be. Then again, look how many Holy Paladins there are! With all the AoE damage in the dungeons, Druid and DK tanks along with Holy Paladins and Resto Shamans took the cake this tier. Obviously the DPS numbers speak for themselves, and while most good players can make their class work with a little extra work, these numbers show how off Blizzard is in their statement. I don't mind the game not being completely balanced, but don't tell me it is when it's not even close.

Sorry for mini-rant, but I can't stand 'necessary' things in raids. You should never need to have someone switch to an alt because it provides more of a damage/healing/tanking bonus than their better geared main.

[Alierya 94]

On the upside it will really help with the 3 druids I have in my raid group...

I like the idea of this mechanic although I think it will be a while before the kinks are ironed out. They will probably be OP then under powered, then OP, then under powered... and then it will be almost balanced! There is always teething with any big changed & there is always one class that ends up OP when major changes are implemented. A few patches down the road and we'll see.

[lmendonca 16]

I think the shadow priest / feral druid combo of Dispersion and Tranquility is possibly one of the greater combos for sure!

I think part of my negativity is the fact that I only get a cyclone whether I'm disc or holy !

Just feels that this will become a "must have" mechanic for a lot of progression guilds, not sure if thats a good thing or not.

I like this one because i'm losing Divine Hymn and i'm tired of disperse on Impale and Torment

but as a rl i'm thinking it is going to be a good tool at the raid disposal.

[Peelyon 416]

I like this one because i'm losing Divine Hymn and i'm tired of disperse on Impale and Torment

but as a rl i'm thinking it is going to be a good tool at the raid disposal.

Dont forget you dont lose your own abilities so you can still do imaples and torment etc ;) but yeah a great plus for shadow priests who will still get an off heal

[lmendonca 16]

Dont forget you dont lose your own abilities so you can still do imaples and torment etc but yeah a great plus for shadow priests who will still get an off heal

i know this, was jk... I actually like to do it, you can add in the list ragnaros traps, dispel myself and other things.

one question. How it work for the other classes? we have a spell in the spell book or it's an extra button that show when symb is cast?

[Vlad 411]

I could not agree more with this sentiment. I am SO sick of Blizzard implementing things that feel required rather than not.

*more words and things*

While I agree with you, there's at the whole other camp who is arguing against homogenization and arguing for new, fun, and creative abilities to be added. Everyone agrees (I think, anyway) that a "new, fun, and creative ability" is useless if it doesn't somehow actually affect your performance in raids or PvP.

So, I ask you, how do you reconcile the two? Do you like the homogenization model, where everyone provides the same buffs, no one has anything "innovative" anymore? Then, what is the point of having different classes, when the only differences start to be the names and icons of the spells.

Personally, I think it's a design mistake if raids are not able to progress past a certain point because they lack a player of X class or spec. But I think it's perfectly fine if a class or spec's niche abilities make the fight easier for the raid. Now, the question becomes (for me), should these niche abilities make the fight somewhat easier, considerably easier, or some other amount in between? And I think you cannot have an objective answer to that, as it depends on the raid's general ability and the skill of the player playing the specific class or spec.

So, I understand entirely that it's insanely difficult for Blizzard to balance these standpoints, and I applaud them for continuously trying to fix both problems at once.

[Peelyon 416]

I think its safe to say that for the top guilds around that they will be choosing classes / specs / whatever it takes to get the kill as fast as possible. So in this respect there will always be classes that are "overpowered" etc depending how they are, and so for those guilds things wont change much. If I think back to the beginning of Cata I think DK tanks were really really favoured compared to other tanks and I dont think any holy priests existed in those top guilds due to the mana problems at the beginning of the expansion. So to some extent whether its just stats or the extra ability here and there it doesnt make much difference to these top guilds, they will get the job done no matter what.

I think it softens the blow a little by having such an ability on a class like a druid. Chances are a lot of groups have druids in them with them being such a versatile class and the splitting of feral and guardian may mean even more players feel like they want to move to druids. Im sure there would be a lot more complaints if such an ability was made for a class like a warlock for example.

Myself and a lot of my guildies have always played what we enjoy and if we have ever missed a buff or a spec or something special like a battle ress we've pretty much always got on with it. Obviously this has meant we have never fully progressed at the same rate as other groups who have managed to tailor make their group to maximise its potential, but one ability like Symbiosis wont make the difference between us progressing or not.

I suppose its hard to make a decision either way. I was annoyed at 2-3 classes getting some form of battle ress, even though we have never had a lot of druids in our group during Wrath (we just played without a battle ress a lot of the time) it did seem a bit silly to me to add it into other classes (but understand why they did).

I think my problem is I wish they wouldnt try and please everybody. Personally I think too many classes are alike, and I really wouldnt mind if some classes had special abilities that others never had. I've never played any other MMO's but I've heard of things like support classes that might not do as much damage as others but they have their niche of helping the group as a whole. I just think that because Blizzard are trying to make everyone happy they try and balance out everything too much.

I dont really know what Im even trying to say or what I expect Blizzard to do about it really, but I think for too long now the game has become too simplified. Maybe going back to each class having its own niche is what we need? But that wont please everyone either ;)

I just hope Blizz keeps making these bold moves, but I honestly cant see this lasting 6 months before it gets nerfed in to the ground or 2-3 other classes somehow find they can do something similar.

Will have to see :)

[Swampertguy 5]

I just hope Blizz keeps making these bold moves, but I honestly cant see this lasting 6 months before it gets nerfed in to the ground or 2-3 other classes somehow find they can do something similar.

I definitely agree that Blizz should keep making cool, creative things like this, and I hope they don't nerf these things to death. I do feel that other classes need things like this to make it more fair as this is a pretty big thing to have in a raid. Though symbiosis is not necessarily game changing, but having the extra b-rez or the extra damage reduction CD, or even the DPS CDs can make a big difference when you are trying to burn down a boss and are under-geared (as top tier raiding guilds will be doing early expansion). It sure makes druids look a lot more appealing when a RL makes their picks when they choose who they wanna take on their first raids.