DPS Paladin 1.12 (Classic)

[Damien 1,514]

This thread is for comments and feedback concerning our guide to DPS as a Paladin in WoW Classic.

 

[Powermetalhank 0]

Hi, Would it be possible for the Icy-Veins crew to take a look at the Spelladin stuff going around?

https://classicwow.live/guides/314/spelladin-raid-dps-pre-bis-phase-1-new-meta

Im not expecting ret to do competetive DPS, but i am wondering about an alternative to regular melee dps.

Thanks

[Damien 1,514]

3 hours ago, Powermetalhank said:

Hi, Would it be possible for the Icy-Veins crew to take a look at the Spelladin stuff going around?

https://classicwow.live/guides/314/spelladin-raid-dps-pre-bis-phase-1-new-meta

Im not expecting ret to do competetive DPS, but i am wondering about an alternative to regular melee dps.

Thanks

Letting Impakt know ?

[Impakt 25]

Yeah, I've been following it.

 

From what I've seen and heard about it, I'm excited to see how it does. However, I've also made the choice to only include it as a small footnote in the guide for now. Historically this has not been a heavily played spec, and I have yet to see real results for what this could do. Most of the work is purely theorycrafting at this point. As soon as we get some Molten Core logs on WoW Classic where we can see how it performs, I'll absolutely immediately revamp the guide to include it if it ends up being viable.

[CaperfinWoW 21]

29 minutes ago, Impakt said:

Yeah, I've been following it.

 

From what I've seen and heard about it, I'm excited to see how it does. However, I've also made the choice to only include it as a small footnote in the guide for now. Historically this has not been a heavily played spec, and I have yet to see real results for what this could do. Most of the work is purely theorycrafting at this point. As soon as we get some Molten Core logs on WoW Classic where we can see how it performs, I'll absolutely immediately revamp the guide to include it if it ends up being viable.

The spelladin meta has been reproduced on pserver with positive results. If I am remember correctly, if we assume the ABSOLUTE worst case scenario spelladin  averages at 34 more dps over normal stuff. Best case scenario is the paladin Mog who regularly outdamaged regular paladins by +175dps! To say a spelladin is not viable is hilariously undervaluing it. 

[Powermetalhank 0]

Thank you for your replies. Let's see what'll happen when more guilds start doing MC.

[Missionman 0]

I actually did Ret Dps back in Vanilla, late 2004 up to BC, literally only played Ret Pally until 2012 when I stopped on Burning Blade. I mainly was a PvPer but I did raid the 40 man raids regularly as dps. I can provide witnesses if necessary, however I’m not here to brag or anything, I mainly here because I did it because I loved the spec, and because people told me I couldn’t. Anyway just validating that the spec if you think outside the box does work as a unconventional meta dps.  I guess that’s how I would term at the time being it’s not considered one.   

I’m just going off how it was for me back then so if things changed or I missed something in your guide then feel free to discount my information from your theory. I found it to fall into a multi-role spec, basically focused on dps, but depending on the situation, I would support healers if needed, either keep them alive or backup heal to allow them to recover, or I remember on a few accounts emergency tank, but that usually was a last resort to prevent wiping right before the boss was killed.  If it was earlier in a fight generally it would wipe.  

At equal epic Gear lvl matched with other dps classes, I found Ret while clearing trash generally places top 1-5 dps because you can go all out, best case on boss fights was top 5, but generally I fell somewhere in the top 10 because if I couldn’t stay on the boss in some phases, or had to support, It obviously dropped down.  I do remember being in top 3 in some cases and maybe top like once but that could of been a fluke lol. 

But if I was not, I can or would be somewhere in the middle on healing usually as a trade off.  Not only dps, you’re expected to Never let a healer die first and keep a tank alive at the last minute with LOH.  

From my results, I found a lot of factors that also happen when dealing with 40 other people.  So I always felt results can improve if everything happened the way it was supposed to.  But either case you have to have the ability to recognize changing situations and adapt.  The only complete gear set I personally eventually obtained was the AQ gear, but that was closer to BC time, so I don’t have much information from that unfortunately.  

Otherwise discounting that, before that point I basically geared like a warrior would and carried a ton of supplies and extra gear.  You’re mana pool is going to take a huge hit if you’re trying to be competitive dps. If you’re not good at mana management with gear outside tier gear you won’t be.

So again, I missed something in your guide, I would say the majority it is correct and should work.  Unfortunately I don’t have informational resources to provide from back then.  It was a lot of trial and error for me, so I can’t say rather or not your approach is better.  However my mental approach is pretty similar to yours so again it should work. The only difference in option, and correct me if I’m off, is this is only optimal conditions if you’re able to obtain gear.  

If you roll Ret you’re going to work for it and invest a lot of time to make it work. You’ll work even harder to prove people wrong, you’ll probably won’t be full on doing dps in every situation.  So you’ll have realize when that happens and adapt, and you’re definitely going to deal with a lot of people’s stigma that it doesn’t work because you’re not conventional meta dps.  I was stubborn and was lucky to have a guild that rolled with it which is why it worked.  If you don’t not have support from your guild no matter what you do it won’t work.

Anyway hopefully my information and testimony makes since or helps in proving the theory Ret is viable even if it’s unique. I’m playing Ret again in classic, however I could be past my prime to do what I did all those years ago, I’m still going to try but I’m going to leave it to someone else to provide results.  I’ve already done it and know where Ret dps fall into. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Missionman
Updating information

[Missionman 0]

18 hours ago, Missionman said:

 

Sorry if my post is a bit long, also I’m mentioning Ret because that’s what I played and I saw spelladin mentioned some where, it wasn’t a term I remember being used back then, so I’m assuming it’s based on both Ret and the Shockadin which were the two types back then.  

Also I don’t recall limited mobility being a weakness I thought I got around fine. But I would say limited range was more of one if I didn’t missed that in your guide. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Missionman

[Impakt 25]

Thanks Mission, that's helpful. I think I agree with what you're saying pretty well, Ret is viable, but it takes lots of time and effort to make it work, more so than other "meta" classes like Warrior and Rogue.

 

For Reference, Spelladin refers to the newer Ret Paladin build where you stack spell power, use a fast weapon, and use Seal of Righteousness + Judgement for the holy damage. Consumables are incredibly important for this build, specifically Shadow Oil. The idea is that you attack quickly, frequently proccing SoR and Shadow oil, with spell power affecting both of those.

 

And thanks for the post Caperfin - I do agree that spelladin has seen some awesome results on private servers. For off-meta builds like that though I'm hesitant to revamp my guide until I see actual results on WoW Classic. As we've already seen, lots of things have changed between private servers and WoW Classic, and I think it'd be premature to switch. Remember, WoW Classic is probably going to be active for the next 2 years as the phases roll out; I'm just saying that I'm going to wait 1-2 weeks to get some MC logs with spelladin parses before adding it as an official guide. I truly hope you're right and it ends up being great, I love the build. 

[Missionman 0]

52 minutes ago, Impakt said:

Thanks Mission, that's helpful. I think I agree with what you're saying pretty well, Ret is viable, but it takes lots of time and effort to make it work, more so than other "meta" classes like Warrior and Rogue.

 

For Reference, Spelladin refers to the newer Ret Paladin build where you stack spell power, use a fast weapon, and use Seal of Righteousness + Judgement for the holy damage. Consumables are incredibly important for this build, specifically Shadow Oil. The idea is that you attack quickly, frequently proccing SoR and Shadow oil, with spell power affecting both of those.

 

And thanks for the post Caperfin - I do agree that spelladin has seen some awesome results on private servers. For off-meta builds like that though I'm hesitant to revamp my guide until I see actual results on WoW Classic. As we've already seen, lots of things have changed between private servers and WoW Classic, and I think it'd be premature to switch. Remember, WoW Classic is probably going to be active for the next 2 years as the phases roll out; I'm just saying that I'm going to wait 1-2 weeks to get some MC logs with spelladin parses before adding it as an official guide. I truly hope you're right and it ends up being great, I love the build. 

Thanks for explaining what the spelladin is, it actually sounds like a interesting concept that makes sense actually. Anyway I hope your guide gets more attention, I think it’s a great approach to get people’s foot in the door, makes it easier with some sort of evidence to back it. I’ll definitely refer it anyone that I find that have the dedication I once had to Pally dps to hopefully get the results you’re looking for. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Missionman

[CaperfinWoW 21]

I look forward to seeing what MC logs show us. im rooting for spelladin ?

[CaperfinWoW 21]

lol what are the odds, just today someone posted spelladin logs and it's looking REALLY good https://youtu.be/Uot29-nwsbM?t=606 Higher than AP ret without a doubt.

[Impakt 25]

On 9/13/2019 at 1:02 PM, CaperfinWoW said:

lol what are the odds, just today someone posted spelladin logs and it's looking REALLY good https://youtu.be/Uot29-nwsbM?t=606 Higher than AP ret without a doubt.

Yeah, no kidding. That's incredible. I'll start adding it in this week.

[Guest Runkle]

Hand of Justice is from General Angerforge, not Emperor.

[Impakt 25]

On 10/24/2019 at 4:16 PM, Guest Runkle said:

Hand of Justice is from General Angerforge, not Emperor.

This is indeed a typo and has been fixed. Thanks!

[Guest Nazeth]

Still it's a Classic. Not a Vanilla.

Many thing do not works like we saw on privates.

For example Consecration implement invisible debuff on every target that is in range and taking one debuff slot on them.
That mean to use full rotation we need 2 debuff slots, what can be unallowed by raid leader.
We can weapon twist,
We can seal twist,
We can do trick with instant HoW without reduction of swing timer.

Next is gearing progress.
By taking Precision 3/3 we have extra 3% hit that allow us to take much better items instead of that with hit chance.
For example Flamescarred Shoulders instead of Truestrike Shoulders with combo Battlechasser's Greavers instead of Bloodmail Boots. If you can't find Battlechasser's Greavers, then buy Sapphiron's Scale Boots.

Many guides forget, that on raid we are buffed with BoK, what increase value of STR and AGI much more over raw AP.
Then Magni's Will will be better than Painweaver Band ect...

There you have example, how can look Raid P2 AP Retpally with Precision 3/3
https://classic.wowhead.com/gear-planner/paladin/human/AjwOVQAB9QP1QjAFEgAxUfCBMWA8JQI8M8MollhHAsOFLc5OOQZKwYc42jwliDELTjeJSspOKopKx04tCzEEDEmFDTaNDi4njzQcNjqQQx5OQg
28 str more, 5 agi more, 41 ap more, 0.25% melee crit more

[Guest Nick]

 Hide of the Wild link is broken

[Guest Zelden]

Hi, dipped into this for reference purposes to help a ret in the Guild and noticed Consecration is suggested in the Rotation.

It's worth noting that currently in Classic Consecration actually takes a debuff slot (despite not showing up as a debuff) and will in-fact knock off existing debuff.

Prior to 1.9 Consecrate showed up as a debuff. Classic runs off 1.12 and though the debuff is no longer visible it still behaves like one. There is a thread in the bug-reports on the forums that has extensive proof but no Blue response.

Given the above I would suggest an edit to note that consecrate should probably not be used in raid rotation. Further to this fact I'm unsure if the talent points could be better spent elsewhere. I've done a bit of playing around on paper but it's probably better left for a Ret player to test out. 

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/consecration-incorrectly-counts-as-a-debuff/361226/108

[Guest Bobbypdue]

Strength "increases the damage of all of your abilities and auto attacks." 

Does it increase the damage of SOC at all?  I don't think it does becuase SOC is based on weapon damage

[Guest Chatterbox]

This is not accurate. Strength does not increase the holy power. Intel does that, and if you play with crusader agi/intel are your strongest attributes. People forget that agi adds to dodge and armor as well making it a great compensater to sacrifice Stam in some areas. I think dps pallys stack agi>int>stg take Kings near end game when it matters and watch that 10% go to work if you stat right also you can use mail gear, just cause your a pally doesn’t mean you need heavy with Devo and armor from agi it balances your survivability.