Multi Immolate Destruction - Council Fights

[Djxinator 0]

Hi folks,

I see a lot of mixed opinions on this. What kind of a dps increase can I expect to see from Multi dotting Immo on Council style fights vs simply using havoc for cleave?

Multi dotting Immo isnt something I've ever done as Destro, on council fights I usually switch to Affi, but I haven't played since 4.1 and i'm a little rusty and I'd like to remain Destro for the time fair,g. I noticed Ignocia doesnt do it, and this is the guy who got Rank 1 Affi Fallen protectors with 1,000,000 dps through Multi Dotting.

Any opinions would be appreciated. To be fair, right now my ability to keep immolate up on 3+ targets sucks balls because my mechanics aren't up to scratch. I'm trying to find the add-on Ignocia uses to track dots on the bosses on the right hand side of the screen, it looks amazing for multi dotting as it is central on your screen (using tidy pages to track on bosses is hard...)

Edited February 27, 2014 by Djxinator

[Lockybalboa 618]

The more haste you have the better the gain is. Numbers are based on a lot more then just one thing and RNG can make a HUGE sway in DPS.

 

Zag normally is more haste heavy then I am and he multi dots more on Protectors then I do, our DPS comes out to be about the same depending on RNG. Personally I don't multi dot on it because the gain isn't very much for me and I rather worry about movement then micro managing a dot. But if I had more haste I would do so because of the small gain.

[Djxinator 0]

The more haste you have the better the gain is. Numbers are based on a lot more then just one thing and RNG can make a HUGE sway in DPS.

 

Zag normally is more haste heavy then I am and he multi dots more on Protectors then I do, our DPS comes out to be about the same depending on RNG. Personally I don't multi dot on it because the gain isn't very much for me and I rather worry about movement then micro managing a dot. But if I had more haste I would do so because of the small gain.

So it's only a minor increase even with more haste? I run a Mastery > Crit > Haste build at the moment so im assuming I would be at a loss multi dotting, especially considering it's not my forte and demand way too much of my attention on fights I don't 100% know.

[Lockybalboa 618]

If you're mastery>crit>haste I really would not bother with it, improving the usage of havoc and timing movement will be far more impacting on your DPS then multi-dotting is. 

 

Multi-dotting, especially as a warlock, is a good skill to have in your back pocket ready for use. Many target fights will never go out of style, many of these fights the DoT doesn't last long enough to matter but on the fights that it does, it's important to be comfy with the idea. I would highly recommend that if you have protectors on farm you toy around with it, no need to min/max on it but keeping sharp is good.

 

I was running aff all night during farm this week just because I can, my DPS was normally a bit lower then what I do in Destro but it was nice to break the habit and to remember the moves of aff. Never know when it will be needed again.

[Djxinator 0]

If you're mastery>crit>haste I really would not bother with it, improving the usage of havoc and timing movement will be far more impacting on your DPS then multi-dotting is. 

 

Multi-dotting, especially as a warlock, is a good skill to have in your back pocket ready for use. Many target fights will never go out of style, many of these fights the DoT doesn't last long enough to matter but on the fights that it does, it's important to be comfy with the idea. I would highly recommend that if you have protectors on farm you toy around with it, no need to min/max on it but keeping sharp is good.

 

I was running aff all night during farm this week just because I can, my DPS was normally a bit lower then what I do in Destro but it was nice to break the habit and to remember the moves of aff. Never know when it will be needed again.

 

This is the policy I used to have back in WotLK / Cata, but considering I've returned from a break that has lasted since Patch 4.1 and only recently got back into raiding I found it would be better to master Destruction again before I got back into the much more complicated Affliction.

 

I'm only a trial in my current Guild so I think it would be prudent for me to go as Destro until I pass xD

[Lockybalboa 618]

Wise choice, best to keep it simple and strong for now. Destro will be a good way to wade back in to things.

[Guest garmeth06]

I don't know why this fight perplexes me, but I just seem to have a fundamental issue in understanding of how to play destro for protectors.

 

Zagam just illuminated me to the fact I suck on that fight :P, but I don't understand how the dps increase is insignificant by casting immolate on all 3 /5 targets assuming you dont have any procs of which you should dump chaos bolts.

 

What else would you spend this extra time on?? Incinerating a single target?

 

Also can somebody for the love of god explain fire and brimstone efficiency. Destro guide says 4 targets use F&B and use havoc, but I've read Zagam say its bad to F&B 4 targets. This made me use it on rook's desperate measure phase, which was apparently also bad.

[Astynax 24]

Gonna try my hand here.

 

 

 

Zagam just illuminated me to the fact I suck on that fight , but I don't understand how the dps increase is insignificant by casting immolate on all 3 /5 targets assuming you dont have any procs of which you should dump chaos bolts.

 

In short, the reason is because as destro, the amount of damage you gain from immolate, and the amount of damage you gain from incinerate is approximately equal. The extra time in positioning, switching targets, ETC. essentially makes the DPS much of a wash. 

 

 

What else would you spend this extra time on?? Incinerating a single target?

 

Yes, and largely, this is the reason I do not aff on this fight. Sure, big numbers. woo!.... But it doesn't push desperate measures that much faster, and slows it down a bit in the middle, as you're doing 300k dps, but only 100k to each. Whereas destro is doing 250k dps, and doing 230k of that to one guy. Lots of this fight, ESP heroic, is pushing the desperate measures phases. I feel destro's single target output makes is superior here.

 

 

 

Also can somebody for the love of god explain fire and brimstone efficiency. Destro guide says 4 targets use F&B and use havoc, but I've read Zagam say its bad to F&B 4 targets. This made me use it on rook's desperate measure phase, which was apparently also bad.

 

So, Rook's DM phase doesn't have enough targets to make FnB sustainable. You're going to get off 4-5 FnB spells, and in exchange, you're out of embers. Assuming they're all being tanked together, as they should be, RoF is worthwhile, and will help ember generation. Meanwhile, if you don't FnB for it, you're going to get off 3 chaos bolts, + 1 using havoc. 4 CBs > 6 incins, so your overall damage output is better. (assuming like perfect RNG during this phase, ofc). The destro guide is just that, a guide. You have to understand what it's telling you, and then apply it with your own knowledge. They can't possibly cover every mechanic of every fight during it.

 

 

 

 

 

Why I multidot:

 

It's not that hard. - My 9 key is bound to a macro (shoutout to Kazi, who gave it to me!) which casts immolate on my focus. In any fight that calls for target swapping, I always have my focus set, so hitting 9 and watching the right side of my screen isn't all that difficult. (Also helps that my 0 is bound to a similar havoc macro)

 

It's something I'm working on. - I'm not a great multidotter, and it's something that, as locky said, I want in my pocket, so I'm attempting to get better about doing it, and watching it.

 

I feel that it helps my ember generation. - I can, personally, tell a large difference in my chaos bolt uptime during fights like protectors and dark shams. During Dark shams, esp because of slimes, I am DROWNING in embers, and I notice a significant difference in the number of chaos bolts I get off.

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited February 28, 2014 by Astynax

[Strife 6]

 

Yes, and largely, this is the reason I do not aff on this fight. Sure, big numbers. woo!.... But it doesn't push desperate measures that much faster, and slows it down a bit in the middle, as you're doing 300k dps, but only 100k to each. Whereas destro is doing 250k dps, and doing 230k of that to one guy. Lots of this fight, ESP heroic, is pushing the desperate measures phases. I feel destro's single target output makes is superior here.

 

 

Aff really depends on your raid and strat though. In 25M Aff is way better imho because you already have a ton of dps focusing one target and as Aff I pull ~700K dps which is way more than I could do as Destro, and this is without my 13K haste BP and getting my Aff set together yet. If you're good at extending your empowered dots through inhale -> 2 ticks of MG or 1 haunt -> exhale you pull insane numbers. Sure it's spread out across 3-4 targets, but in a 25M and using the below strat on this fight it's way more useful to be doing 200K to 3 targets vs 350K vs one target imho.

 

A pretty normal raid strat for 25M is Rook -> He + Sun at the same time. While in He + Sun DM everyone is focusing the Mark and the ranged are putting whatever dots/cleave they have on the big Sun adds. Affliction is really good at multi-dotting here and pumping your haunts into the Mark. Assuming you have a good amount of ranged cleave dps going out from things like dots the Mark and Sun's adds die at about the same time which is what you want. For Rook's phase Aff is obviously going to be better since all 3 adds share the same health pool.

 

Since the 25M strat in general is about pushing the 3 Protectors quickly with 2 at the same time Aff is just really good at helping your overall raid push things faster without any padding dps. At the end of the fight I have millions more damage I put out on the protectors than any of the other classes or the one lock that plays destro and personally it's worth it in 25M. 

Edited February 28, 2014 by Strife

[Astynax 24]

Aff really depends on your raid and strat though. In 25M Aff is way better imho because you already have a ton of dps focusing one target and as Aff I pull ~700K dps which is way more than I could do as Destro, and this is without my 13K haste BP and getting my Aff set together yet. If you're good at extending your empowered dots through inhale -> 2 ticks of MG or 1 haunt -> exhale you pull insane numbers. Sure it's spread out across 3-4 targets, but in a 25M and using the below strat on this fight it's way more useful to be doing 200K to 3 targets vs 350K vs one target imho.

 

A pretty normal raid strat for 25M is Rook -> He + Sun at the same time. While in He + Sun DM everyone is focusing the Mark and the ranged are putting whatever dots/cleave they have on the big Sun adds. Affliction is really good at multi-dotting here and pumping your haunts into the Mark. Assuming you have a good amount of ranged cleave dps going out from things like dots the Mark and Sun's adds die at about the same time which is what you want. For Rook's phase Aff is obviously going to be better since all 3 adds share the same health pool.

 

Since the 25M strat in general is about pushing the 3 Protectors quickly with 2 at the same time Aff is just really good at helping your overall raid push things faster without any padding dps. At the end of the fight I have millions more damage I put out on the protectors than any of the other classes or the one lock that plays destro and personally it's worth it in 25M. 

 

 

Right, but I believe it was zagam here the other day who said something to the equivalent of "As long as your raid knows what you're doing, and is able to compensate for it, you can pretty much do whatever you want in 25m." My argument was mostly confined to 10m, or a situation where things like not pushing sun or rook quickly enough are causing problems. I'm not arguing that aff pushes bigger numbers, nor am I syaing the numbers I posted above are "accurate". It was just an off-the-cuff example. My general point was "being at the top of the meter isn't always important." EX. IK locks who meter pad in the first phase of garrosh with FnB, when in reality they should probably (depending on strat, ofc) be focusing on just using adds as ember generators, and laying into Garrosh himself. One pulls more damage. But that doesn't make them inherently more useful, and the only case where aff truly causes the phase to push faster is rook's DM on heroic, which is relatively simple to begin with, really.

[Strife 6]

Right, but I believe it was zagam here the other day who said something to the equivalent of "As long as your raid knows what you're doing, and is able to compensate for it, you can pretty much do whatever you want in 25m." My argument was mostly confined to 10m, or a situation where things like not pushing sun or rook quickly enough are causing problems. I'm not arguing that aff pushes bigger numbers, nor am I syaing the numbers I posted above are "accurate". It was just an off-the-cuff example. My general point was "being at the top of the meter isn't always important." EX. IK locks who meter pad in the first phase of garrosh with FnB, when in reality they should probably (depending on strat, ofc) be focusing on just using adds as ember generators, and laying into Garrosh himself. One pulls more damage. But that doesn't make them inherently more useful, and the only case where aff truly causes the phase to push faster is rook's DM on heroic, which is relatively simple to begin with, really.

 

Oh yea I get what you were saying, just trying to clarify on the whole Aff thing and how destro isn't really always better, especially using 25M strats.

 

I would say in 25M Aff is better for all 3 DMs if you are pushing Sun + He at the same time. Not to mention dps outside of DM is still going to be somewhat important to reset things like Calamity, Garrote, and Brew in a timely matter.

 

I did 11/14H progression in 10M so I completely see the point at that raid size on progression depending on what your raid is having trouble with, but in 25M using the Rook -> Sun + He strat I really don't see any reason to play destro other than you're not really comfortable/want to play affliction which is fine for some people, but not because destro is somehow better. 

 

But yes padding dps is irrelevant, which is why I play Destro for Paragons or why on progression my raid was really only looking at H Garrosh DPS because there were certain checkmarks we needed to hit through progression, i.e. Push phase 1 before the 2nd wolf rider, get him sub 95% before first intermission phase, get him sub 25% at second intermission, push him to p3 before 2nd empowered WW, etc. 

 

Was just clarifying since I do see arguments for using destro on certain multi-target because it focuses more on one target despite overall non-padding dps being lower which is valid for some situations, just not all situations.

 

Same reason I stick to Aff for Norushen and Nazgrim in 25M. 

Edited March 1, 2014 by Strife

[Liquidsteel 279]

Have to say Paragons on 25 man was one of my most hated fights; on 10 man it's so much fun!

 

Doing the strat of dropping amber then rotating 90 degrees makes it so much easier, and I don't have to run out of range trying to be 'good' and dropping well placed ambers.

 

Saw a huge increase in dps killing it this way managing to multi dot everything with immolate as opposed to mainly only doing so with havoc on 25.

 

430k in 10 man and don't think I ever finished higher than 400k in 25.

 

I'm definitely in favour of multi dotting immolate.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Liquidsteel

[Strife 6]

Depends on your paragons strat? We use the two stack point method which is basically the same as rotating 90 degrees except you are just moving back and forth instead of around in a circle. 

 

We don't have people run out to drop well placed ambers, just have ranged move from green, to blue, to green, etc. all the way up until Hisek is dead. Tanks and melee stay in the same 2 spots (one spot for first 3 bosses) then move to middle area after Prime is dead.

 

I only multi-dot with havoc in 10 and 25M though, not sure if it's actually a non-padding dps increase if you do it without havoc?

Edited February 28, 2014 by Strife

[mediocregatsby 18]

i have 432k on 25HC paragons, which is a top 50 parse currently

 

the only times i put immolate on something other than kill-target:

- big clump of parasites while rikkal is up

- every single havoc (non-glyphed)

- current kill target is about to die

- waiting for next kill target to fly down from the platform

 

in other words, i don't actively maintain immolate on all 3 bosses. i just don't think it would be a DPS gain.

 

edit: apparently i also have a top 50 parse on 25HC protectors (590k). it's surprising because we don't stack-and-burn the bosses or push 2 desperate measures at a time like most top parsing guilds do. i don't actively maintain immolate on this fight either.

Edited February 28, 2014 by mediocregatsby

[Astynax 24]

I mean, if you're dropping chaos bolts on the bosses who heal, it might be. But continual multi dotting/RoFing is just ember generation.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I dunno, I'm not a Maths guy so I'll let someone else work it out.

 

For reference, I have around 30% crit raid buffed, which is pretty low compared to most of you. This puts my Immolate at 45% crit chance with 4pc, which is the main aim with multi dotting immolate.

 

I get +2 ticks from 10.1k haste but +3 with LMG at the same time, but let's just call it 9 ticks (with pandemic iirc).

 

On average, each Immolate would be equal to 4 ember bits.

 

I feel this is a worthy trade for one incinerate on the main target.

 

Note that I do like using the Havoc glyph for increased ember generation during the burst phases. If it was unglyphed I might only use that for maintaining a pandemic'd 4pc buffed immolate on the second target.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Liquidsteel

[Astynax 24]

For reference, I have around 30% crit raid buffed, which is pretty low compared to most of you. This puts my Immolate at 45% crit chance with 4pc, which is the main aim with multi dotting immolate.

 

I get +2 ticks from 10.1k haste but +3 with LMG at the same time, but let's just call it 9 ticks (with pandemic iirc).

 

On average, each Immolate would be equal to 4 ember bits.

Ummm.... I don't get this math? Lol. The way I'm figuring it, 45% crit is close enough to 44.44444 = 4/9. So 4 of your 9 ticks will crit with every immo. The equates to 0.8 embers. The other 5 will not, which is just 0.5 embers. That makes every immo you cast (assuming this simplified math is mostly correct, worth 1.3 embers in ~ 22 seconds, or a little more than an ember every 2 seconds. But I may be missing part of this equation to be so far off you liquid.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Like I said. I suck at maths.

I thought immolate crit gave 1 ember. And ticks give none.

[Astynax 24]

That's what the guide here says, but I swear it feels like more... I wasn't aware, if that's the case. It's possible I'm just not used to the 4 set yet, and am under valuing It's effects, as well.

 

 

EDIT: Liquid was right. I am wrong: as usual.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Astynax

[Belloc 6]

Don't forget about the 2pc, either. It's another 10% crit for immolate if you bother tracking it.

[Astynax 24]

Don't forget about the 2pc, either. It's another 10% crit for immolate if you bother tracking it.

Valid. And while I don't actively track it, I have passively noticed it 4 times in all of about a month and a half of progression/flexes/lfrs. Sooo... Lol. I would hesitate to call this very relevant.

[Belloc 6]

Being able to get your immolate up to 50-60% crit is perfectly relevant. I realize the 2pc doesn't seem to proc very often, but I track it and I notice it all the time. It's worth making use of from time to time, especially if you're the kind of player that puts immolate up on multiple targets.

[Astynax 24]

The dps increase is abysmally low. It's proc chance is mot very high, at all. The dps increase you gain is not high at all, and It's essentially a worse version of 4 pc, with a low proc chance. I don't see how this makes it worth mentioning.... Even if you get it four times a fight, which is high for the rate I've seen... That's 8 emberbits...

[Zagam 1,982]

To clear up some apparent confusions...

 

2pc procs once per 5 minutes on average.  It's garbage RNG inside of RNG on top of some more RNG - don't track it for the sake of depending on it to snapshot. 

 

Immolate ticks generate 0 Ember bits.  Immolate tick CRITS generate 1 Ember bit.  Immolate application on secondary and other targets should follow the traditional spell priority of applying it to anything that it will tick on for its full duration.  As previously stated, if it crits just 2 times, it's worth casting over an Immolate, not just for the Ember bits, but for the damage as well.  It should not, however, be prioritized over Chaos Bolt or Shadowburn, ESPECIALLY with procs up.

[Astynax 24]

To clear up some apparent confusions...

 

2pc procs once per 5 minutes on average.  It's garbage RNG inside of RNG on top of some more RNG - don't track it for the sake of depending on it to snapshot. 

 

Immolate ticks generate 0 Ember bits.  Immolate tick CRITS generate 1 Ember bit.  Immolate application on secondary and other targets should follow the traditional spell priority of applying it to anything that it will tick on for its full duration.  As previously stated, if it crits just 2 times, it's worth casting over an Immolate, not just for the Ember bits, but for the damage as well.  It should not, however, be prioritized over Chaos Bolt or Shadowburn, ESPECIALLY with procs up.

 

 

The fact that some poor soul did the math on the RPPM of the 2 pc makes me sad for them.... *takes a moment to mourn*

 

 

And thank you for clarifying that. I should be used to being wrong about things with you guys. lol