Multi Immolate Destruction - Council Fights

[Guest garmeth06]

I did see significant dps increase on protectors though its hard to see by how much. Logs say I went from 750k to 0 health in .4 seconds (Not even one GCD ) because of a corruption shock so I died in the middle of the fight. I can get a better metric this week but it looks like I'm getting a grip on the fight.

Edited March 3, 2014 by garmeth06

[Belloc 6]

To clear up some apparent confusions...

 

2pc procs once per 5 minutes on average.  It's garbage RNG inside of RNG on top of some more RNG - don't track it for the sake of depending on it to snapshot. 

I'd be careful before making the claim that 2pc procs once per 5 minutes on average... I just finished looking at my last couple of Tuesday logs, as well as a couple of your Tuesday logs. I had 48 procs over the course of 57-58 minutes of boss combat on Tuesday and the previous Tuesday had a similarly high amount of procs. One of your logs was missing procs for several fights, which tells me that you probably changed gear at some point, but the other Tuesday log of yours I checked had you and Rocky both getting a high amount of procs.

 

If the average proc rate is once per 5 minutes, than we 3 must be significant outliers, because I'm seeing 1-2 minutes per proc, as well as procs often refreshing before they expire. Admittedly, this is a small sample size... but the samples are consistent with each other. I'm guessing I could check the logs of similarly geared and itemized warlocks and see even more consistency. (edit, just checked another warlock and saw the same).

 

I realize it's still not a significant amount of DPS, but it's better to, say, refresh Immolate at 3 seconds remaining with 10% extra crit chance than 1 second remaining without, is it not? And it's certainly not a bad idea to toss out some Immolates on other targets when you know that it's got a higher crit chance.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Belloc

[Zagam 1,982]

With Ember Master being available every 10-15 seconds with guaranteed results, you'd be FAR better off trying to reapply Immolate during this time.  Remember, a trinket proc of PBI or KTT is worth ~8% crit, so either trinket proc is worth reapplication for just the crit chance alone - but it also helps with the additional spell power on the damage. 

 

The 2pc proc 5 minute proc was blatant sarcasm that I realize was worded poorly on my part.  Take for example my still current #1 Destruction parse on Malkorok on 25 man normal - I got one single proc of the 2pc bonus in the entire fight.  Even if it did proc often, it only adds a chance to the chance of it procing, so it's really quite underwhelming.  There may be some proc data out there that shows it procs at a decent rate, but it's not worth looking into because it's complete garbage. 

[Strife 6]

High proc rate people are seeing in overall logs is probably from the multi-target fights and trash. 

 

2pc sucks ass for single target, it's marginally better when you're on like Galakras and hitting 5 mobs with FnB Conflag or amazing during things like Immerseus adds.

 

If I look at my most recent logs, I had 9 procs on a 9 min Galakras fight and 7 procs on Dark Shaman which seems to line up alot with Toxic adds, but for instance on Paragons where I never FnB other then to immolate a clump of parasites I only had 3 procs.

 

I'm going to assume that if anyone looks through their logs they'll probably have way more procs on AoE fights or at times where a bunch of adds come out and you FnB them. 

 

But yea I don't even bother tracking the 2pc with WAs, it's pretty mediocre and really doesn't affect your rotation since you're probably re-applying Immolate with 4pc procs and other procs anyways. 

[Lockybalboa 618]

you and Rocky both getting a high amount of procs.

 

Rocky?

 

I will cut you.

[JvChequer 43]

2pc procs once per 5 minutes on average.  It's garbage RNG inside of RNG on top of some more RNG - don't track it for the sake of depending on it to snapshot.

So...are u telling that 2TP have some RNG?

[Zagam 1,982]

What?  Yes it has RNG involved.  Unsure if trolling or...

[Astynax 24]

Zag, ofc he's a troll. His armory's right there!

[Belloc 6]

Rocky?

 

I will cut you.

lolol, I'm sooooo sorry. I was kinda trying to work and forum post at the same time. My apologies!

 

edit: You have no idea how big I'm smiling because of your post :P

Edited March 4, 2014 by Belloc

[Soulzar 42]

Strange to see those who have specifically gone for the Immolate breakpoint with haste build advocating against multidotting Immolate.

[Astynax 24]

Strange to see those who have specifically gone for the Immolate breakpoint with haste build advocating against multidotting Immolate.

 

 

Why? In terms of overall DPS, immo is a wash. By dumping out my crit into haste, I gain 8% crit chance, which results in basically the same ember generation as my extra tick of immo does. The extra haste is more based on playstyle than actual gains from immo damage.

[Soulzar 42]

Why? In terms of overall DPS, immo is a wash. By dumping out my crit into haste, I gain 8% crit chance, which results in basically the same ember generation as my extra tick of immo does. The extra haste is more based on playstyle than actual gains from immo damage.

 

Since when are we allowed to call dps gains a wash?  So far I only see excuses to why each person does not multidot in this thread.

 

TL;DR, I feel discussion should be around multidotting on a fight like paragons, IMO it shouldn't even be debated for a fight like protectors.

 

In a fight like protectors where all dmg done to non focus targets matters, there is no reason I can think of not to multidot anything and everything.  In a fight like Paragons where off dotting is for the sole purpose of ember generation, that is where i think this thread should focus and where the discussion needs to evolve.  

 

Immolate dwarfs Incinerates Damage per Execute time, which is why maintaining immo is higher priority than incin in our standard rotation.  Looking at Simcraft and comparing the total execute time vs ember generation source charts, it seems to suggest that Ember generation per execute time of Immolate is higher than Incin which would additionally support multidoting.

 

Again in a situation where damage matters, multidotting is a clear winner.  However when the DPET of Immolate is removed from the equation on a fight like paragons, its a bit harder to measure gains based on ember generation alone as the execution time needs to be factored in as well without the support of the DPET.

 

It's the trade off between the ember generation gains vs the lost execution time on targets that matter as a standard rule of thumb, but even in a fight like paragons there are numerous opportunities to multidot that does not detract from execution time on your kill target... so its not cut and dry either.  There are times in paragons I multidot and times I don't, and it changes based on a few mechanics  and what part of the fight we are in.  

 

That is why I felt it odd, especially since one of the side effects to stacking haste is taking advantage of the extra tick on a higher DPET spell.

[Astynax 24]

Since when are we allowed to call dps gains a wash?  So far I only see excuses to why each person does not multidot in this thread.

 

TL;DR, I feel discussion should be around multidotting on a fight like paragons, IMO it shouldn't even be debated for a fight like protectors.

 

In a fight like protectors where all dmg done to non focus targets matters, there is no reason I can think of not to multidot anything and everything.  In a fight like Paragons where off dotting is for the sole purpose of ember generation, that is where i think this thread should focus and where the discussion needs to evolve.  

 

Immolate dwarfs Incinerates Damage per Execute time, which is why maintaining immo is higher priority than incin in our standard rotation.  Looking at Simcraft and comparing the total execute time vs ember generation source charts, it seems to suggest that Ember generation per execute time of Immolate is higher than Incin which would additionally support multidoting.

 

Again in a situation where damage matters, multidotting is a clear winner.  However when the DPET of Immolate is removed from the equation on a fight like paragons, its a bit harder to measure gains based on ember generation alone as the execution time needs to be factored in as well without the support of the DPET.

 

It's the trade off between the ember generation gains vs the lost execution time on targets that matter as a standard rule of thumb, but even in a fight like paragons there are numerous opportunities to multidot that does not detract from execution time on your kill target... so its not cut and dry either.  There are times in paragons I multidot and times I don't, and it changes based on a few mechanics  and what part of the fight we are in.  

 

That is why I felt it odd, especially since one of the side effects to stacking haste is taking advantage of the extra tick on a higher DPET spell.

 

We call the DPS gain between an imp and an observer a wash, even tho the observer is ~500 DPS ahead....

 

Nobody's saying that multidotting isn't advantageous in a fight like protectors. The issue is whether or not it's necessary, as in, something you should definitely be striving to do. CLEARLY, if you want a top parse, then by all means. That's hardly the purpose of this thread though...

 

The reason I tend to multidot on paragons is the same reason I do so on protectors. IF you are having an issue where X or Y is not being killed quickly enough, it, in a roundabout manner, helps your burst damage. This is, from my experience, why raids fail to clear this content. The enrage timer on both fights is laughable, and the initial goal, at least, should not be to "kill tings as quickly as possible." But simply to "kill things". Considering that I'm not 14/14H with all/most BiS gear, I'm more concerne with the second one. lol

[Lockybalboa 618]

Since when are we allowed to call dps gains a wash?  So far I only see excuses to why each person does not multidot in this thread.

 

TL;DR, I feel discussion should be around multidotting on a fight like paragons, IMO it shouldn't even be debated for a fight like protectors.

 

 

When we're 4 months in to a tier and talking about a DPS gain that isn't massive, you can call a DPS gain a wash.

 

Multi dotting with Destro on Protecters isn't the same as multi dotting as Demo with UVLS on ToT Elders, we're looking at 10-15k DPS gain. Demo UVLS on Elders we're talking about the difference between ~140k without multi dotting Vs. ~450-700k with snap shotting multi dots.

 

In a purely theoretical and practical DPS gain, all destros will gain SOME by multi dotting on a fight like Protectors. But it is by no means a required gain nor is it ALWAYS a gain. Depending on your comp and RNG it might be far more useful to focus on movement and perfection then it is multi dotting. It's a advanced judgement call, that's what we're trying to convey here. 

 

Also I was unclear before about haste and multi dotting. I multi dot more in destro when I have a lot of haste NOT because of the extra ticks but as a quality of life issue. Nothing in this game makes me madder as a caster then GCD capping, I hate it. Sitting there for 2/10ths-5/10ths of a second every second mashing a keybind and being unable to do ANYTHING PISSES ME THE FUCK OFF. So, if I do have a lot of haste I run in to this a lot with backdraft+haste procs. 

 

Looking at the numbers with backdraft and LMG my Incinerate is 0.975 seconds, Immolate is at 1.03 seconds. Option [A] GCDs me. Option doesn't, so I cast option as much as I can waiting for that haste proc to fall off so I can use backdraft without it. Some times I can, sometimes I can't, but I try. Does this really matter...no.

 

 

The difference between the 90% players and the 99% players isn't the finest min/maxing, it isn't about being able to eek out 500dps here, 200 dps there, 100dps over there and hopeing it all adds up. It does add up a bit, but not nearly as much as people seem to think sometimes. 

 

Snap judgement calls, a muscle memory reaction, carving out a little bit more out of your class through knowledge of the class and the mechanics, thinking outside the box. That's what the top level is about. RNG will always screw you if it can, reacting to the RNG and making the best out of it makes a huge difference. 

 

 

 

Keep in mind that this is a game where I can drop a #18 parse in week 3 heroic ToT with a 472ilvl by gaming mechanics. Conversely I can play perfectly and still not get a half decent parse because PBI DECIDES TO GO ON VACATION FOR THE NIGHT AND TAKE 30 SECONDS OVER THE ICD TO PROC EVERY FREAKN TIME.

 

There is very rarely some magical key to doing major damage. Is multi dotting a DPS gain? Yes. Should you do it? Maybe.

[Astynax 24]

There is very rarely some magical key to doing major damage.

 

Damn.... I fell through my closet last night, and a toad walked up, handed me a mushroom, and told me I would now be the best Warlock in history... 

 

Come to think of it, maybe that was just the acid....

[Guest garmeth06]

Damn.... I fell through my closet last night, and a toad walked up, handed me a mushroom, and told me I would now be the best Warlock in history... 

 

Come to think of it, maybe that was just the acid....

Damn bro, I think Kardis's toxic totem is in your plumbing, tainting your water... Better get that checked

[Liquidsteel 279]

Pretty sure both myself and Zagam said we DO multi dot on this fight. 

[Zagam 1,982]

Sure, I multi-DoT because it ends the fight faster.  It's not necessary to beat the enrage.  I'm also pretty darn good at tracking DoTs and snapshotting DoTs, so it's worth it to me.  I've also completely mastered the encounter, so I can focus on small min/maxing.  Sometimes players focus on min/maxing DPS and then die to a mechanic.  Protectors is one of those fights where multi-DoTing is good, but you can get carried away.  Reapplying an Immolate to something instead of Chaos Bolting a priority target is usually bad for your group.