Endgame Spec Comparison Discussion

[RejectKid 1]

so be honest akraen.  ive been seeing alot of meters showing fire over frost and arcane over frost. (from raidbots/WOL).  and I trust you here on this but whats showing best results in your calculations? :-)

[Kver 65]

so be honest akraen.  ive been seeing alot of meters showing fire over frost and arcane over frost. (from raidbots/WOL).  and I trust you here on this but whats showing best results in your calculations? :-)

I've also seen 540 warlocks beat me on Immerseus :P I assume that you mean in BiS gear? There are so many factors involved that we currently just give the politically correct "they're all viable".

[RejectKid 1]

I've also seen 540 warlocks beat me on Immerseus I assume that you mean in BiS gear? There are so many factors involved that we currently just give the politically correct "they're all viable".

I understand that they're all viable but there's gotta be some that pull ahead at certain iLVLs or that are always best.  even if the difference is only 1% you know.  If able to be played near perfect in (lets say for example my current gear/normal gear obtainable) is fire actually better?

[Stormy 11]

Rejectkid : In 25HC Arcane tends to pull ahead because its lack of mobility is made irrelevant by the lack of need of caring and the fact that people have so much gear they can just dismiss mechanics and turret up. Moreover, quite a few top guilds tend to do the fights "wrong" on purpose to pad on adds and have ridiculous parses (Method for example), or others pick a player or two and have them and only them go full aoe so they can do a million dps on a fight where they should be doing half. Moreover, Frost has only come of age in 5.4 and most top mages, who've been playing mage for several expansions in general, are used to fire and arcane and see no reason to switch.

[Oltier 471]

so be honest akraen.  ive been seeing alot of meters showing fire over frost and arcane over frost. (from raidbots/WOL).  and I trust you here on this but whats showing best results in your calculations? :-)

Keep in mind, that WoL and Raidbot include almost every single player in the game. Experts and newbies. Now if you think about it you can realize that nowadays, I'd say Frost became a bit more complex spec than fire and it's on par with arcane.

Most newbies start playing as frost, because they leveled as frost and they like it, so they move the average curve downwards.

Making good numbers with fire doesn't require brain and many ppl were fire in previous expansions so the number of fire mages is also quite big..

Arcane mages are kinda annoying to play due to movement restrictions, thus most of the people won't choose this spec. However, who chooses to play this spec is most likely above the average skill level and iwll be able to play the spec almost perfectly, thus arcanes average DPS curve will obviously be higher.

 

tl;dr: Frost: Many players, most of them are newbies or average players (no offense to anyone), mildly hard to play perfectly.

Fire: Many players, most of them are average players, requires no brain to do high DPS.

Arcane: Low number of players, most of them are above average players, requires brain to DPS.

 

I think this perfectly explains why fire and arcane are above frost in WoL etc.

 

I understand that they're all viable but there's gotta be some that pull ahead at certain iLVLs or that are always best.  even if the difference is only 1% you know.  If able to be played near perfect in (lets say for example my current gear/normal gear obtainable) is fire actually better?

If you play all specs on the same skill level, then the fight type will decide which spec is the best.

Heavy movement: Fire

No movement: Arcane

multidot, single target etcetc.

Frost will be like.. in the middle most of the times.

 

Rejectkid : In 25HC Arcane tends to pull ahead because its lack of mobility is made irrelevant by the lack of need of caring and the fact that people have so much gear they can just dismiss mechanics and turret up. Moreover, quite a few top guilds tend to do the fights "wrong" on purpose to pad on adds and have ridiculous parses (Method for example), or others pick a player or two and have them and only them go full aoe so they can do a million dps on a fight where they should be doing half. Moreover, Frost has only come of age in 5.4 and most top mages, who've been playing mage for several expansions in general, are used to fire and arcane and see no reason to switch.

Agreed on these.

[RejectKid 1]

Keep in mind, that WoL and Raidbot include almost every single player in the game. Experts and newbies. Now if you think about it you can realize that nowadays, I'd say Frost became a bit more complex spec than fire and it's on par with arcane.

Most newbies start playing as frost, because they leveled as frost and they like it, so they move the average curve downwards.

Making good numbers with fire doesn't require brain and many ppl were fire in previous expansions so the number of fire mages is also quite big..

Arcane mages are kinda annoying to play due to movement restrictions, thus most of the people won't choose this spec. However, who chooses to play this spec is most likely above the average skill level and iwll be able to play the spec almost perfectly, thus arcanes average DPS curve will obviously be higher.

 

tl;dr: Frost: Many players, most of them are newbies or average players (no offense to anyone), mildly hard to play perfectly.

Fire: Many players, most of them are average players, requires no brain to do high DPS.

Arcane: Low number of players, most of them are above average players, requires brain to DPS.

 

I think this perfectly explains why fire and arcane are above frost in WoL etc.

 

If you play all specs on the same skill level, then the fight type will decide which spec is the best.

Heavy movement: Fire

No movement: Arcane

multidot, single target etcetc.

Frost will be like.. in the middle most of the times.

 

Agreed on these.

 

 

Thanks so much to both you for these replies/explanations.  

So it seems that frost is kind of the new kid on the block for MOP?  Looking at patch notes since my hiatus it would seem that fire (as youve stated) had been dominant up unitl 5.4 where it seems to have gotten the nerf bat to a lot of the spells.  It would make sense then that the ore skilled are on fire still/havent switched.  So it would seem like that frost is the best of both worlds.  providing average average everything in terms of dps/movement/aoe, and if played extremely well even possibly better I'm guessing?

I've always enjoyed fire (ICC and lower) the most, however as soon as numbers showed a dps increase towards one spec or another I switched and mastered it to the best of my abilities and I tend to be able to adapt to the spec.  It seems like they fixed the issue of "one spec to rule them all" that there used to be with each spec being very viable now.

Thanks again

[Akraen 230]

Moderator Note: I split this off from my frost guide into its own topic. Keep it civil, guys.

[Akraen 230]

Alrighty now for my reply.

 

Even with 100% perfect skill, uptimes, etc., each spec is within the range of each other spec as the raw single and multitarget output is influenced by RNG or your own guild's boss strategy.

 

Arcane: Advantage gains come from using mana adept for mage bombs (cleave/multidot).

Fire: Advantage gains come from movement & good combustions.

Frost: Advantage gains come from add fights and 2 target cleave.

 

On single target I could draw you a line for each spec:

 

Fire:

Lower Limit |----------|Avg DPS|--------------------|Upper Limit (best RNG+skill)

 

Arcane:

Lower Limit             |--------|Avg DPS|-------------|Upper Limit (best RNG+skill)

 

Frost:

Lower Limit                 |-----|Avg DPS|----------|Upper Limit (best RNG+skill)

 

This helps make it a bit more visual, and to understand that there is more to it than "this is the best spec." So that kind of rhetoric needs to stop in the community.

 

There's just no practical answer :) But the theoretical top DPS is, of course, as always, fire.

[Belicosa 11]

The smartest thing ever said on this subject is, "play what you like and are good at."

 

Nothing worse in a raid than a weak frost mage hurling frost bombs at Malkorok...or an incompetent Arcane Mage dotting him with arcane torrent.

 

Destro locks will get nerfed again. Mages will be the top dps forever.

[Akraen 230]

The smartest thing ever said on this subject is, "play what you like and are good at."

 

Nothing worse in a raid than a weak frost mage hurling frost bombs at Malkorok...or an incompetent Arcane Mage dotting him with arcane torrent.

 

Destro locks will get nerfed again. Mages will be the top dps forever.

 

This is like the third time you've said to keep up arcane torrent.

 

Please tell me you mean Nether Tempest and I haven't fully lost my mind.

[Oltier 471]

This is like the third time you've said to keep up arcane torrent.

 

Please tell me you mean Nether Tempest and I haven't fully lost my mind.

As far as I recall Arcane Torrent is a Diablo 3 Wizard spell that makes similar effect to Nether Tempest. :D I might be wrong tho :D

[Cynthaea 12]

All I know is Arcane Torrent is the blood elf racial. :-/ I even went and looked it up thinking its something I overlooked when I was leveling as an arcane mage in all my noobie glory!