Excecution phase & havoc

[Frame 0]

Hey,

 

I've came here thanks to my raidleader, another warlock. He says I should come here and learn more about my warlock. I've read the pinned topics, those are great.

 

But I still have some questions;

 

1. When the boss goes below 20% do I want to spam the shadowburn button, considering trinket procs etc. and completely ignore CB ? Or do i only shadowburn if there is heavy movement and an opportunity to kill the target, thus refunding embers and no procs up?

 

2. About havoc, i'm not using that enough it seems. But what spell do I wish to havoc? Ideally shadowburn, but if the targets are all above 20% What do I havoc then? Chaos bolt? Or incinerates to build embers? I figure its CB when there is a trinket proc, but without trinket proccing?

 

Cheers!

[Shedim 13]

1. Shadowburn has a higher damage per execution time. Always use this instead of Chaosbolt. The mana regeneration granted is a rather useless factor you shouldn't care about.

 

2. Always use Havoc when you can. You should only use Chaosbolt or Shadowburn with your havoc. Shadowburn is to prefer, as it only consumes 1 charge while Chaosbolt consumes all 3. In add situations like Galakras or Garrosh, try to use Havoc on the main target (in the first example, a high priority target like the shamans, in the second example the weapon or Garrosh himself), when some of the adds are low. Then spam the following macro (I have it bound to V). It will automaticly target a random enemy and attempt to cast Shadowburn. Just spam it until all of your charges are consumed.

 

EDIT: As Lockybalboa stated, using Havoc for ember generation can also be useful, if you don't have any significant procs up and you're not capping embers. 

 

#showtooltip

/stopcasting

/targetenemy

/cast Shadowburn

 

You can use the following Weakauras string to keep track of when Havoc is applied to a target and how many charges are left. I prefer to keep track of the remaining time, while waiting for a trinket proc etc, you can easily change that by replacing the %s with a %p in the text settings.

 

dut1baGEuv2Lq8AjyUuKzRs3MkTtPAVKDly)Ok8tv4VuOFdmukWGrv0WvIdsbDmv5COQAHOk1sfQwmLQLRQEOu8uOhJkphHddAQu1KvQMUOlkLwMs5zurxNIAJuIHPO2mI2UKAAkCAu(SI8DQWifkJJsz0sY4rvYjPKULq6AQOZlrBtcDzK(MsA9KxitO1UVnUfdBAnzT5OJMG2zxwwA0b8FbCfmAhgOaYkynGtiHWTiZrgcDfUlCxEHKGqIm(OQVnewEqssqtzP4WPT1HZtBV1rXzNBIm64u4NoXabF5cviJdeeEbWD5f(bxQ8cDnFtM8kvQuiBxymynGJh8SbyoKc5daCvFoIZnHWaZfMmqqEHUqwqEHz5cv4YNsqtHlFkbnfcVlvqdmFjOkvkm)SPj6xEHahHJWTu8wya6sjKx9NWyWAaNsLcDW2Zk1h2eYRdsscAklrloF(wFV1Zh)RB8Foez0XqyWSR)ZMMOFc1FcROSPQu9HnHejKRaHbawif2029TXvkekVWyWAaNqRDFBClg20AYAZrhnbTZUSS0Od4)c4ky0omqbKvWAaNsH1Q)gVzLsa

 

Shedim

Edited March 8, 2014 by Shedim

[Nalar 0]

ok ill try my best here,

 

1st could you link your armoury to see what gear you have ?

 

for Q1 ) depends on whether you use GoSac or GoSup , GoSac you have to wait for 3 secs for the extra damage and then you do it again, if you have the 4 x T16 set bonus then you can time it so you can do it at the start at the set bonus proc and one just before the end of it

if using GoSup then you can spam the hell out of it, but (and there is always a but) try to use it when you have buffs going to give you some extra ooomph,

under 20% never use CB ........ever, waste of time and energy. under 20% SB is your friend

 

for Q2 )  use only CB period end off, under 20% use SB,

havoc anything that lasts long enough for you CB to hit theres nothing worse than havoc'ing something and then someone comes along and kills 1 of the mobs that you have havoc'd , its so not good, wast of a havoc and a CD, especially if you have it glyphed!!!

yeah trinket procs and all buffs help to anything you have havoc'd as with all destro spells, but  again depends on gear you have!!

try starting to use a mouseover macro for havoc it will help with targeting and using the macro, also what i do is goto the timeless isle to me its one big wooden dummy for there you can learn new stuff and not worry about if you make a mistake or not , i do it sometimes on my other characters.

 

and on another note , dont be disheartend about doing how good/bad your doing , a month ago i joined a HC raiding guild and for the 1st time ever they use World of loggs , and my 1st run with them i feel could have done better, we all have to learn.

regards

              Nalar

[Lockybalboa 618]

What the fuck, does anyone read the fucking FAQs anymore?! Ignorance is fine, spreading it is not.

 

 

 

1. Shadowburn has a higher damage per execution time. Always use this when you can. The mana regenration granted is a rather useless factor you shouldn't care about.

 

2. Always use Havoc when you can. You should only use Chaosbolt or Shadowburn with your havoc. Shadowburn is to prefer, as it only consumes 1 charge while Chaosbolt consumes all 3. In add situations like Galakras or Garrosh, try to use Havoc on the main target (in the first example, a high priority target like the shamans, in the second example the weapon or Garrosh himself), when some of the adds are low. Then spam the following macro (I have it bound to V). It will automaticly target a random enemy and attempt to cast Shadowburn. Just spam it until all of your charges are consumed.

 

Wrong. Very wrong.

 

Shadowburn is treated just like CB is, save it for procs but don't let embers cap. The only exemption to this is when you're using it with Havoc or when the boss is so close to death that you only have time to dump the last XX embers you have in to him (normally I start doing this at around 10% boss HP but it depends on the boss, the comp, the raid, and who is alive) or if being used on an add make sure to Shadowburn close enough to the adds death that you get the proc, the mana from it is useless but the free 20 ember bits are vital.

 

Havoc is commonly used with Incinerate, it is not held to a CB/SB only rule. From Protecters to Paragons it can be used VERY well with ember building spells like Incinerate to build a massive amount of embers during procs. Depending on the situation and the procs it can be used with SB, CB, Incinerate, or Immolate.

 

If there is no proc up and no adds/other boss that is below 20% use Havoc with Incinerate to build embers, make sure you're not capping embers. If you have strong procs and nothing below 20% use it on CB, if you have something under 20% then havoc the higher HP target and use SB on the <20% target.

 

 

 

for Q1 ) depends on whether you use GoSac or GoSup , GoSac you have to wait for 3 secs for the extra damage and then you do it again, if you have the 4 x T16 set bonus then you can time it so you can do it at the start at the set bonus proc and one just before the end of it

if using GoSup then you can spam the hell out of it, but (and there is always a but) try to use it when you have buffs going to give you some extra ooomph,

 

 

His first question has NO bearing on what talent is taken. GoSac gives Chaos Bolt a small DoT, it flatly buffs SB. There is NEVER a reason to "wait 3 seconds"

 

More then that there is no reason to wait three seconds at all even with CB. The DoT doesn't clip, so spam away.

[Lothrandir 12]

Hey,

 

I've came here thanks to my raidleader, another warlock. He says I should come here and learn more about my warlock. I've read the pinned topics, those are great.

 

But I still have some questions;

 

1. When the boss goes below 20% do I want to spam the shadowburn button, considering trinket procs etc. and completely ignore CB ? Or do i only shadowburn if there is heavy movement and an opportunity to kill the target, thus refunding embers and no procs up?

 

2. About havoc, i'm not using that enough it seems. But what spell do I wish to havoc? Ideally shadowburn, but if the targets are all above 20% What do I havoc then? Chaos bolt? Or incinerates to build embers? I figure its CB when there is a trinket proc, but without trinket proccing?

 

Cheers!

 

1. As stated the rotation page for destro is fairly clear on this: above 3.5 embers or when you have a major proc. And yes, ignore CB below 20%.

 

2. There's lots of RNG in playing destro, but you minimize it somewhat by following the rules of the rotation, i.e. dump an ember if you're about to cap, but generally wait for a proc.

 

So the same sort of goes for Havoc. Optimally you use it for shadowburn, but that is not always feasible, especially since adds have a tendency to go down very fast when below 20%, and when the boss is below 20% you dont necessarily deal with adds anymore. So I often use it for CB as well even unbuffed (if close to capping), because of the RNG. It's probably not strictly recommended, but any use of Havoc that's not wasted (as in the case of the havoc'ed target dieing before getting a spell in) is positive contribution to dps. Having said that the MO of using it as ember builder can be quite useful; you might not have Havoc ready for that big proc, but it's more likely you'll have enough embers.

 

Just a few cents.

[Nalar 0]

ahh sorry about that thought it did

Edited March 7, 2014 by Nalar

[Liquidsteel 279]

Regarding CB vs SB under 20%, I feel it's worth pointing out (I know this will likely sound a bit controversial), that I think it can be better to chaos bolt.

If shadowburn doesn’t crit then the damage is pretty low. If you have a trinket proc then I feel chaos bolt might be better. It's a guaranteed crit and is consistent damage. I have begun to lean towards switching to shadowburn if I have a crit buff such as DS or 4 set along with a proc before shadowburning bosses.

The idea is not my own, but anecdotal evidence during a night on Garrosh where I prettu much only used chaos bolt saw me produce best results.

I definitely think it's food for thought for those of us who run with high haste. Add meta gem and lust and even zerking and chaos bolt is approaching GCD anyway.

[Astynax 24]

Regarding CB vs SB under 20%, I feel it's worth pointing out (I know this will likely sound a bit controversial), that I think it can be better to chaos bolt.

If shadowburn doesn’t crit then the damage is pretty low. If you have a trinket proc then I feel chaos bolt might be better. It's a guaranteed crit and is consistent damage. I have begun to lean towards switching to shadowburn if I have a crit buff such as DS or 4 set along with a proc before shadowburning bosses.

The idea is not my own, but anecdotal evidence during a night on Garrosh where I prettu much only used chaos bolt saw me produce best results.

I definitely think it's food for thought for those of us who run with high haste. Add meta gem and lust and even zerking and chaos bolt is approaching GCD anyway.

 

 

Must.... Go do... Math..... Shall return.

[Shedim 13]

What the fuck, does anyone read the fucking FAQs anymore?! Ignorance is fine, spreading it is not.

 

Wrong. Very wrong.

 

Shadowburn is treated just like CB is, save it for procs but don't let embers cap. The only exemption to this is when you're using it with Havoc or when the boss is so close to death that you only have time to dump the last XX embers you have in to him (normally I start doing this at around 10% boss HP but it depends on the boss, the comp, the raid, and who is alive) or if being used on an add make sure to Shadowburn close enough to the adds death that you get the proc, the mana from it is useless but the free 20 ember bits are vital.

 

You certainly misunderstood me. I answered to the question wether he should use Chaosbolt or Shadowburn. I answered that he should always use Shadowburn when possible, when he was going to decide which one to use.

[Shedim 13]

I stand down regarding Havoc, I see the use of it to regenerate embers, but it heavily depends on the particular fight. Cleaving a Chaosbolt is never a bad choice, especially if the secondary target is a raid priority (like certain adds you want down asap)

[Zagam 1,982]

Regarding SB vs CB, you've got a couple of things to consider.

 

Yes, Chaos Bolt always crits.  However, when Shadowburn crits, it does just as much, if not more, than Chaos Bolt.  My average SB crit on a recent Heroic Siegecrafter kill was 1.09M.  Average CB = 1.12M.  It is, however, understood that SB doesn't always crit.

 

When you're in execute phase, you typically have a high number of Embers waiting for a proc or Dark Soul to come up.  While waiting, you should be watching your 4pc.  If I'm above 3 Burning Embers and my 4pc proc is live, I use a Shadowburn.  I sit around 25% Crit raid buffed, so with 4pc, I'm at 40%.  Each trinket adds about 8% and Dark Soul adds 30%. 

 

@ 25% Crit raid buffed

25% Crit no buffs

40% Crit with 4pc

48% Crit with 4pc + 1 trinket

56% Crit with 4pc + 2 trinkets

86% Crit with 4pc + 2 trinkets + Dark Soul

90+% Crit with 4pc + 2 trinkets + Dark Soul + potion

 

Also remember that you can get off more Shadowburns in a small window of time than Chaos Bolt.  Shadowburn also has the accessibility to Havoc 3x on other targets - so any time you have cleave, it's not even up for debate on which is the best use for your Embers.  I would argue that with a 50% crit chance, you'd be better off using Shadowburn because when it crits, you got the same damage in less than half the time it took you to get a CB off.  Considering a burn for Embers and wanting to max damage on a per-Ember basis, the difference will be negligible, but your damage output WHEN you crit on Shadowburn will be much higher.  The penalty for not having them crit is low. 

 

Let's assume you can Shadowburn and get off an Incinerate in the same time you can cast one Chaos Bolt.  You have 4 scenarios.  Let's assume baseline only 40% Crit from 4pc bonus.  Let's assume CB hits for 1.2M here, SB hits for 550k, and Incinerate hits for 200k.

 

1 - Cast Chaos Bolt - 1.2M

2 - Cast Shadowburn (no crit) + Incinerate (no crit) ~750k

3 - Cast Shadowburn (no crit) + Incinerate (crit) ~ 950k

4 - Cast Shadowburn (crit) + Incinerate (no crit) ~ 1.3M

5 - Cast Shadowburn (crit) + Incinerate (crit) ~ 1.5M

 

In the worst case scenario, you're only losing 450k damage, but you're also gaining 1 ember bit, so it's not a total net loss of 450k.  If we attribute 1 ember bit as 120k damage from CB or 1 ember bit as 55k damage from Shadowburn, we're losing less than 400k.  With a 40% crit rate, not critting on two spells would have a 36% probability.

 

In the case that SB crits, you have a net gain in damage and Burning Embers.  With a 40% crit rate, having both spells crit is 16% likely, so not high, but not out of the realm of feasibility.  With any number of procs, the damage of Shadowburn grows in respects to the fact you can cast it AND another spell in the time you could cast Chaos Bolt. 

 

The end point is that you shouldn't be burning your Embers until you have some sort of proc rolling.  The bare minimum would be your 4pc when you take your crit chance up to 40%, but this should be uncommon.  You really want to wait until you have procs to pile on the damage.  I, personally, would never use CB below 20% even if it was a small gain.  There's something to be said about continuing to build your Embers, remain fully mobile, and have the potential to increase your DPS that keeps me tied to my SB button.

[Lockybalboa 618]

 

Shadowburn has a higher damage per execution time. Always use this when you can.

 

You should only use Chaosbolt or Shadowburn with your havoc. 

 

 

These are the statements I was referring to when I said you were wrong. I read it like it's written, "always use it when you can" means as soon as you have an ember, use it. "Only use CB or SB with your havoc" removes Incinerate and Immolate from the equation, also wrong. 

 

 

 

Regarding SB vs CB, you've got a couple of things to consider.

 

I, personally, would never use CB below 20% even if it was a small gain.  There's something to be said about continuing to build your Embers, remain fully mobile, and have the potential to increase your DPS that keeps me tied to my SB button.

 

 

 

Zag, didn't Gahddo did a bunch of math on this a couple of months ago and showed it to only be a .3 or .03% DPS gain? Whatever the number was it was silly low and not at all worth the movement loss.

[Astynax 24]

Regarding CB vs SB under 20%, I feel it's worth pointing out (I know this will likely sound a bit controversial), that I think it can be better to chaos bolt.

 

MY AIM HERE IS NOT TO DISCREDIT LIQUID'S STATEMENT. MERELY TO DETERMINE HOW THIS STACKS UP WITH MATH.

 

Disclaimer: I used simcraft logs, simulating "light movement" for this fight. This is going to give escalated factors on my chaosbolt. I don't care. Because I don't want to have to go do logging parses for this. Read: These numbers are slightly elevated.

 

As I've said before, I am reforged to the 10200 haste cap for destro.

 

 

 

Now, to the maths:

 

 My DPET for shadowburn is almost double that of chaosbolt. My DPE for Chaos bolt averages out to be about 1 million. My DPE for shadowburn is around 700k. That being said, Shadowburn hits for only about 500k, and using it costs me about 1.15 seconds. My chaos bolts can hit for a minimum of about 750k, and costs me 2.3 seconds considering no haste procs. This means that a shadow burn + incinerate = 1 chaos bolt, so 500k + 200k = 700k.So here, the damage COULD BE a wash. If, however, your shadowburn crits, w/o procs, the damage of this becomes almost twice as potent as a chaos bolt, meaning you should always favor this. This scales infinitely with increased crit and int, so I'll stop it here.

 

Assuming my LMG procs, I have 60% haste. So for the sake of simplicity I'm assuming that shadowburn + incin takes 2 secs, 2 GCDs. Chaos bolt will now take 1.88 seconds. Adjusting our model, this then has the potential to be a very small DPS gain, but if Shadowburn crits, then it will again deal increased damage.

 

 

TL;DR: It MAY be beneficial to cast chaos bolt over shdowburn in a high haste, low int/crit situation, but this damage gain is likely insignificant overall.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Thanks for taking the time to work it out for me, maths is something that always goes wrong in my hands.

I'm content with the outcome so far.

If you could indulge me a bit more I do have a question for a more specific scenario for you to math out.

When garrosh goes into p3 you plant your feet and nuke. With 10.4k haste and lust plus meta gem and zerking, how does that change anything, if at all? Lets assume we also have dark soul and pbi.

Im at work so cant check, but how low does CB cast go down to? Does it even matter?

[Strife 6]

Just a note, but when you have high haste it is probably better to cast CB compared to SB assuming you are not using havoc on anything.

 

This really only happens when you lust during execute phase which only happens on a couple bosses and then you have something like LMG or Berserking up. It probably is affected by a haste build as well since I'm not sure on all the cast times with a high crit/low haste build since I've never run it.

 

With a 10124 haste build and lust I have 1.2s base incinerate casts. This falls under the GCD if I use backdraft procs, have LMG proc, or have Berserking up during my next DS cooldown. During lust I end up using my 3 backdraft procs on CB many times because the net result in casting time only saving .2s per incinerate is basically the same as using it on a CB. Add on something like LMG during lust and your incinerates are .9s casts and backdraft CBs are I believe 1.3s although don't quote me on that... I do know with a haste build you can get 1.0s Backdraft CBs during your opener with everything rolling since I only use my 2nd conflag on CB. 

 

So there are rare times where a CB is better in a haste build which really only happens when you have lust during execute which would basically be Nazgrim and Garrosh P2/P3, or rarely Sha of Pride and Galakras depending on if your lust rolls into execute phase. Then of course it depends if your LMG procs, etc. so it's rare, but just something to note.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Strife

[Astynax 24]

Thanks for taking the time to work it out for me, maths is something that always goes wrong in my hands.

I'm content with the outcome so far.

If you could indulge me a bit more I do have a question for a more specific scenario for you to math out.

When garrosh goes into p3 you plant your feet and nuke. With 10.4k haste and lust plus meta gem and zerking, how does that change anything, if at all? Lets assume we also have dark soul and pbi.

Im at work so cant check, but how low does CB cast go down to? Does it even matter?

 

No problem, I think. lol. For sake of comparison, I'll only factor in crit and haste from these, because I think the SP scaling is pretty moot.

 

Normal PBI = 26.04-20.11 = 5.93% crit gain.

Heroic PBI = 26.72-20.11 = 6.61% crit gain.

Base haste is pretty much 30%. LMG is another 30%, hero is 30%, and berskering will be 20%.

 

.... I think this works out to about a 1.1 sec cast on chaos bolt. I could not find the critical damage increase on this scaling, but I will assume it's going to equate to somehting like 150k/30% crit, based entirely on my feels with unbuffed, but DSed CBs.

 

Alright, so, My chaos bolt will be dealing 1.2M, based on the highest hit registered in the sim.

My Shadowburn will crit for 1.2M, when it crits. My crit chance, however, will only be 62.54%, meaning I'll be calculating this damage as 600K*0.6254+600K, or 975K per shadowburn. You gain .1 seconds, but lose 18.75% of your DPE, but gain 10% execute time. This, in theory, equates to an 8.75% damage gain by using chaos bolt over shadowburn.

 

TL;DR: These is some haste threshold between 30% and this ridiculous procced percentage, that IDEK what it works out to be in game, where chaos bolt > Shadowburn due to the garunteed crits. Where this point lies, I'm unsure, and don't want to try to linear regression this.

[Zagam 1,982]

If you're under the effects of Bloodlust, then the DPET of Chaos Bolt goes up about 30%.  This is going to be extremely dependent on your personal Haste levels.  30% Haste + BL + TR = damn near 1 second Chaos Bolts.  At this point, Shadowburn and CB would have an equal DPET but CB would be a guaranteed Crit.  This is an extremely isolated situation, though, and would be one of those 0.1-0.5% DPS gains if pulled off perfectly be a loss if done incorrectly.

[Guest garmeth06]

I think the math is a lot more complicated than what is being portrayed here and to get even an accurate approximation there might be some calculus involved. I want to say a few things

 

1. Nobody has accounted for backdraft's ember bonus gain with shadowburning. People have said a shadowburn can give you higher Damage per execute time + an incinerate, however, people assumed that incinerate was always at normal cast duration.

 

2. Although the damage per execute time of chaos bolt during extreme haste scenarios would be extreme and approach closer to shadowburn's value ( shadowburn doesn't benefit from haste), it isn't that simple. We have to take into account that time isn't the only resource that effects shadowburn's and chaos bolt's damage, the greater limiting resource is the burning embers themselves. Shit gets really messy when trying to theorize or calculate this, one would have to account for the extra embers one would gain vs shadowburning in this haste scenario vs chaos bolting.

 

I think its pointless to try to calculate this, there are way too many differential relationships occurring.

 

Edit: Also note, simcraft cannot even approximate the opportunity cost of shadowburning due to its increase ember gain, its very possible that shadowburning is way more favorable than simcraft would indicate. 

Edited March 7, 2014 by garmeth06

[Astynax 24]

I think the math is a lot more complicated than what is being portrayed here and to get even an accurate approximation there might be some calculus involved. I want to say a few things

 

1. Nobody has accounted for backdraft's ember bonus gain with shadowburning. People have said a shadowburn can give you higher Damage per execute time + an incinerate, however, people assumed that incinerate was always at normal cast duration.

 

2. Although the damage per execute time of chaos bolt during extreme haste scenarios would be extreme and approach closer to shadowburn's value ( shadowburn doesn't benefit from haste), it isn't that simple. We have to take into account that time isn't the only resource that effects shadowburn's and chaos bolt's damage, the greater limiting resource is the burning ember's themselves. Shit gets really messy when trying to theorize or calculate this, one would have to account for the extra embers one would gain vs shadowburning in this haste scenario vs chaos bolting.

 

I think its pointless to try to calculate this, there are way too many differential relationships occurring.

 

It is. But this is "rough math". Kind of like solubility equations in chemistry, where you assume variables don't exist, because their overall effect is small, and other factors outscale them tenfold.

 

In the scenario Liquid described, there is a 0.1s difference in CB and SB. The "ember difference" is so small as to be ignorable. There is some equivalence point for this, but I will not be writing a mathematical expression to visualize this relationship.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Astynax

[Guest garmeth06]

It is. But this is "rough math". Kind of like solubility equations in chemistry, where you assume variables don't exist, because their overall effect is small, and other factors outscale them tenfold.

 

In the scenario Liquid described, there is a 0.1s difference in CB and SB. The "ember difference" is so small as to be ignorable. There is some equivalence point for this, but I will not be writing a mathematical expression to visualize this relationship.

I completely understand the fact that you are trying to approximate, I am simply debating the usefulness of the approximation because I have a hunch that anything we could theorize without considerable time is possibly too inaccurate for it to matter. 

 

In the 10 second window of berserking,tempus repit, and lust I believe you are correct, that chaos bolt would result in a damage increase. But what about in a more useful or generalized scenario?

 

Lust is generally used at the beginning of a fight, and, in my opinion, most destros do not have the 10k break point even if their gear allows it.

 

Assume LMG proc and berserking during an execute phase - my intuition tells me the line is  gray here , I could be very wrong though.

Edited March 7, 2014 by garmeth06

[Astynax 24]

I completely understand the fact that you are trying to approximate, I am simply debating the usefulness of the approximation because I have a hunch that anything we could theorize without considerable time is possibly too inaccurate for it to matter. 

 

In the 10 second window of berserking,tempus repit, and lust I believe you are correct, that chaos bolt would result in a damage increase. But what about in a more useful or generalized scenario?

 

Lust is generally used at the beginning of a fight, and, in my opinion, most destros do not have the 10k break point even if their gear allows it.

 

Assume LMG proc and berserking during an execute phase - my intuition tells me the line is  gray here , I could be very wrong though.

 

Accuracy isn't important in this scenario though. IT's all about precision.

 

The generalized scenario is outlined by the first model.

 

60% spell haste, so 1.87s Chaos bolt. This is SB + 0.87 of an incin. The whole critical argument is still going to hold true, so SB > CB.

[Guest garmeth06]

Accuracy isn't important in this scenario though. IT's all about precision.

 

The generalized scenario is outlined by the first model.

 

60% spell haste, so 1.87s Chaos bolt. This is SB + 0.87 of an incin. The whole critical argument is still going to hold true, so SB > CB.

My bad, I didn't see that you did that initial calculation.

 

What do you think is the line for where increased ember generation is so negligible that I can be ignored out curiosity? Even 5 emberbits could potentially be 1 million extra damage.

[Zagam 1,982]

You don't go into theorycrafting discussions by saying "It's not worth discussing."  If you don't want to discuss it, don't.  Please try to refrain from discouraging people talking about complex scenarios regardless of your opinion on the net effect.  People don't discover things by not trying.

 

To clear up some confusion...

 

Shadowburn DOES scale with Haste, but ever so slightly.  Your GCD is reduced with Haste.  Your normal GCD is 1.5 seconds for Destruction which is scaled down with Haste.  Your GCD is almost never the limiting factor for Chaos Bolt, but 50% Haste is enough to bring Shadowburn's GCD down to 1 second.  In this case, you're able to spam it faster.  Don't believe me?  Go hit the execution dummies with 4 Shadowburns without Bloodlust.  Build up and repeat with Bloodlust.  Yeah, it's that much faster.

 

The whole difference between SB and CB comes down to VERY small differences.  As said before, we're talking about maybe a half percent gain to use Chaos Bolt in a maximum efficiency way as to react to haste procs which brings the cast down past the beneficial breakpoint of Shadowburn.  In rough, out of my head math, my guess is this breakpoint occurs when:

 

Chaos Bolt cast time < GCD + Incinerate cast time

 

With Haste procs, your CB cast time could reach a value that would prove to be great, but consuming Backdraft would NOT be worth this.  It's similar to previous scenarios where your Backdraft charges should be used for faster, more efficient Incinerates.  I can see this type of situation coming up in one of two places - P3 Heroic Garrosh (or normal) and Galakras.  These are the only two bosses that have single targets with Bloodlust in an execute phase.  For every other boss, you use Bloodlust at the start or having some cleaving going on.  This is a VERY finite situation - and while it's create to think about, you must use the debate in that context alone.  Talking about the choice of CB vs SB at the start of a fight is head-scratching.

[Guest garmeth06]

You don't go into theorycrafting discussions by saying "It's not worth discussing."  If you don't want to discuss it, don't.  Please try to refrain from discouraging people talking about complex scenarios regardless of your opinion on the net effect.  People don't discover things by not trying.

 

 

I was afraid of obtaining a wrong answer from too liberal approximations. I was in no way advocating the halt of discussion, I was wary of the calculation. I said "I think its pointless to try to calculate this" in the manner that we are doing.

 

Our calculations already have subjectivity to them, which is against the whole concept of a calculation. Astynax thinks .1 seconds per cast is negligible to ember generation, I'm not so sure that's the case. I am leaning on his side, I just am more skeptical.

 

I do believe you on the haste thing, its been a huge movement in terms of affliction pvp of people wanting to get more globals out, many of the top locks use haste in pvp for GCD reasons including snutz, azeal, etc.

 

And yes I know I said it doesn't affect shadowburn, but the haste has an EXTREME greater affect on CBolt rather than Shadowburn, and I thought this assumption was very objective thus disregarded the affect of haste on Sburn.

Edited March 7, 2014 by garmeth06

[Astynax 24]

My bad, I didn't see that you did that initial calculation.

 

What do you think is the line for where increased ember generation is so negligible that I can be ignored out curiosity? Even 5 emberbits could potentially be 1 million extra damage.

 5 emberbits = 1M? That's very hypothetical. 5 emberbits = 1/2 CB, or about 500k damage. Have to quantify everyhting. This line likely lies somewhere just south of 2s CB casts