Destruction... Many many questions

[Ghuerilla 2]

Hello everyone, I've recently decided to start gearing and playing a destro lock to give me something to do when not raiding on my warrior. After reading through the icyveins guide, looking through sparkuggz' website, and reading through some posts on this forum, I've become thoroughly confused on a number of issues:

1) Stat priority. Obviously int over mastery over crit/haste, but is crit better than haste or vice versa? Some say crit for flat increased crit strikes and the bonus ember regen, but haste would definitely give more comfort with mana and quicker chaos bolts within trinket prods. Which scales better?

2) Dark soul. Should it be used on cd WITHOUT EXCEPTION or are there cases where you should wait for a trinket to proc?

3) What is higher priority with 3 sec left on a pbi/huge int proc: cast immolate because/if it has 2 seconds left until it drops, OR chaos bolt, leaving a couple seconds with no immolate on the target AND an (unbuffed) immolate? Similarly, on fights like protectors, does immolate uptime remain the highest priority to refresh during trinket procs or does chaos bolt/havoc plus chaos bolt take priority?

4) BiS trinkets. Many seem extremely powerful for single target, particularly ktt, pbi, and bboy. Which are the best for pure single target and will this ever change on a cleave fight like galakras or shamans?

5) Sup vs Sac; I have heard that Sup is better for ALL situations below 560, but that Sac will overtake Sup (though only for single target) above 560ish. Fact or fiction?

Many thanks to anyone who can take the time to answer these questions for me! I find the spec very exciting to play and I'm very eager to maximize my dps.

[Recklessfear 33]

1: Mastery is king, you want all the mastery you can. Gem it enchant it reforge it. Haste or crit makes virtually no difference in DPS, what does matter is your off spec. If you run aff or demo you're going to want to go M>H for that significant break point for your OS

 

2: Generally, PBI and DS come off CD together, so use them together, but you should be using DS as often as you can

 

3: More buffed CBs always. 

 

4. Technically, PBI and BBoY are best, but since you cannot always get off a 10 stack CB (due to mechanics of having to move), KTT prove more useful. The DPS difference is like 300 or something. Very small. 

 

5. You can use sac after 100% (or 15k) mastery, preferably with KTT. 

 

 

 

 

Also, first post here on IV. Woo!

[Lockybalboa 618]

Also, first post here on IV. Woo!

 

 

Welcome.

 

@OP - His reply was close enough for government work, you might want to check out our other pined posts:

 

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/1686-54-destruction-tips-and-quirks/

 

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/2466-t16-warlock-style-normal-heroic/

 

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/1654-54-warlock-trinkets/

 

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/3496-zagams-fixing-your-dps-faq/

[Astynax 24]

What locky said. Lol.

But for simplicity:

1. Mastery > haste=crit. The dps difference is very negligible, but you will either go for a low haste, high crit, or a low crit, high haste build. Don't half ass it.

2. On cd. But delaying it 5 seconds or so is not a big deal.

3. Big crits! Big crits! (Chaos bolts are priority, always.)

4. Pbi is always bis. While bboy has a better int proc, its usage is problematic. Therefore, we tend to prefer ktt.

5. GoSac > GoSup, when you have your ktt, but not before.

[Liquidsteel 279]

5. GoSac > GoSup, when you have your ktt, but not before.

 

 

This really isn't true. KTT is not mandatory for GoSac. If you have 570 ilvl and no KTT you would still be using GoSac...

 

I'd say the cut off point is around entry level SoO gear. If you have KTT then you'd probably want to switch to GoSac sooner, but pretty much every single fight has mechanics which amplify your ember generation.

 

This in turn boosts GoSac's output in relation to GoSup.

 

I'd change the statement to something like "GoSac > GoSup, when your have your KTT or ~550ilvl.

[Ghuerilla 2]

Thank you very much everyone for all the help!

[gahhda 95]

2) Dark soul. Should it be used on cd WITHOUT EXCEPTION or are there cases where you should wait for a trinket to proc?

3) What is higher priority with 3 sec left on a pbi/huge int proc: cast immolate because/if it has 2 seconds left until it drops, OR chaos bolt, leaving a couple seconds with no immolate on the target AND an (unbuffed) immolate? Similarly, on fights like protectors, does immolate uptime remain the highest priority to refresh during trinket procs or does chaos bolt/havoc plus chaos bolt take priority?

 

2. Dark Soul should be used on CD unless you're running the archimonde's darkness talent. If you're running this talent you should save your charge until you have an intellect trinket proc, preferably PBI.

 

3. The dps difference between an immolate and a chaos bolt with procs is very minimal and generally comes down to personal preference. In the case of crit procs from 2pc/4pc, refreshing the immolate can actually be a dps gain because of the increase in ember generation from critical immolate ticks.

 

 

This really isn't true. KTT is not mandatory for GoSac. If you have 570 ilvl and no KTT you would still be using GoSac...

 

I'd say the cut off point is around entry level SoO gear. If you have KTT then you'd probably want to switch to GoSac sooner, but pretty much every single fight has mechanics which amplify your ember generation.

 

This in turn boosts GoSac's output in relation to GoSup.

 

I'd change the statement to something like "GoSac > GoSup, when your have your KTT or ~550ilvl.

 

There's minimal difference between the two without KTT, so not really...you can use whatever you want before KTT is a factor. Even in a realistic fight the difference between GoSac and GoSup is really insignificant, even counting havoc/aoe.

[Liquidsteel 279]

 

 

 

There's minimal difference between the two without KTT, so not really...you can use whatever you want before KTT is a factor. Even in a realistic fight the difference between GoSac and GoSup is really insignificant, even counting havoc/aoe.

I guess I came across the wrong way.

 

I've seen it said here a few times that GoSac is not viable until you have KTT. This isn't true, and is the point I was trying to make.

[Lothrandir 12]

Regarding the haste vs. crit discussion, there's another thing to consider.

 

I've been sim-crafting two builds for myself (and I am around 562 ilvl), one with the 'standard' Mastery > Crit build, and one with Mastery > Haste (10124) > Crit > Haste. It comes out very close - too close to call given the variance in sim-crafting, but if I were to call it was actually the haste build coming out on top.

 

Regardless, the point I want to make is that if you start considering Affliction for some fights - especially the council-type fights in SoO depending on strategy - the 10124 haste build is a good fit for affl also, as you will get the 4th Agony tick, and the next important breakpoint is far off (12439 for 3rd tick of UA). This could mean that you do not have to re-spec everything when switching spec. I am currently using the haste build for the flexibility; one which I actually don't use since I'm still progressing with my guild, and I havent really practiced my affl skills all that much , but since they are so close, I leave it like that.

 

Having the haste build might present some issues during periods of buffed haste, so be aware of these and work around as much as possible.

 

I don't remember the source unfortunately, but I read somewhere that if going for a haste build, GoSup would be the one to use, but that would need confirmation or the opposite by some of the nice locks in here So that's what I'm doing, and using the Imp unless I have to interrupt in which case I usually also go GoSac cause that Felhunter is just running all over doing nothing sometimes ...

 

Edit: Don't know your current ilvl, but I should stress that I wouldn't toy with this myself before at least SoO entry level gear, and perhaps even later than that.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Lothrandir

[Liquidsteel 279]

I believe it's in Brusalk's guide on MMO-Champ. If you're a pet lover then the best reforging set up for GoSup is Haste/Crit > Mastery.

 

I think SoO just lends itself so well to GoSac and Mastery stacking that it makes sense to gear that way.

[Lothrandir 12]

Interesting, although he does a disclaimer regarding 5.4 - one of the bullet points for the 5.4 TL;DR is: 

 

• Mastery >= Crit >> Haste. This is the best reforging setup I've found.

 

It's probably the safe route to stick to this. My point was mainly to cater for the added Affliction utility.

[Liquidsteel 279]

His guide is a bit messy, he's said it himself. He hasn't had time to clean it up.

 

Mastery then either crit or haste it what you want.

 

I run aff/demo off specs so I just avoid crit as much as I can.

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm almost 99% sure that the Mastery >= Crit >> Haste setup is for pure single target.  Since very few fights actually are purely single target, you'd be better off stacking Mastery and balancing Haste and Crit.  Mastery wins out any time you have multiple targets due to the empowerment of Shadowburn and your ability to generate more Embers than you would with a single target.  Mastery also scales Fire and Brimstone to lessen then penalty of each spell. 

 

Haste effects your AoE in that you get more casts off.  Typically, your emphasis on Crit is to generate more Embers, but with proper play, you shouldn't have any issue maintaining Embers while AoEing. 

 

Crit effects your Chaos Bolt directly and increases your Ember generation slightly. 

 

/beats dead horse

 

Your secondary stats should be a set and go style.  If people would practive just 20% of the time they spent worrying about stats on a training dummy, their DPS would skyrocket.

 

IMPROVE YOUR GAMEPLAY - QUIT FOCUSING ON SECONDARY STATS.

[Astynax 24]

I've been sim-crafting two builds for myself (and I am around 562 ilvl), one with the 'standard' Mastery > Crit build, and one with Mastery > Haste (10124) > Crit > Haste. It comes out very close - too close to call given the variance in sim-crafting, but if I were to call it was actually the haste build coming out on top.

 

 

This is something that I've noticed myself when sim-crafting my weights out. Essentially, EVEN THOUGH I'm at the 10124 haste BP, and I know that crit is going to be more beneficial to me, the weights SimC outputs don't stack up to this. It's actually begun rating haste higher than mastery, as my ilvl increases, so when giving my stat weights, I actually have to ballpark haste to not get some retarded reforge. I'm not entirely sure why this is, but I feel it has to be EITHER a bug in SimC, OR something to do with it attempting to raise the DPET of chaos bolt and/or stack haste to the point of giving me a 1 sec incinerate cast at base, which is stupid. Haven't read too deeply into the results, but the outcome is glaringly wrong.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Simcraft has always slightly over valued haste afaik.

I think mastery also gets better with proper ember usage.

Regardless I wouldn't bother with actual stat weights for reforging. Just set your stat priority and pick a haste cap.