Dealing with DPS with a high DPS group

[Recklessfear 33]

I find that I struggle to keep up with logs of locks similar to my value.

 

Even more so on add heavy fights.

 

I'm (hoping) I'm not a  baddie, and part of the problem lies in adds dying so fast I often miss several SB cleaves which can really add up to a larger portion of DPS. 

 

I perform in the higher percentiles on single target fights, but seem to perform less on the add fights.

 

Was looking through some old stuff and mine and noticed a pattern. While raiding with a 10m heroic group, of lesser skill, I was showing much better performance on fights like Sha, Norushen, Galakras, and spoils. Now raiding with a much better 25m team, I see those fights struggle. Just a thought I had that group comp can play a significant role in if DPS on specific fights?

 

/blog

[Liquidsteel 279]

Playing with better players can make things harder. Especially in 25 man.

We had 5 locks in my old 25 man. Getting off more than 2 shadowburns on 7 targets on garrosh hc was nigh impossible.

[Zagam 1,982]

You're witnessing what many people don't understand.  In 10 mans, if you're the best player, it gets highlighted to a high degree.  In a lot of 10 mans I know with exceptional parses, they were seemingly manipulating the fight data.  For example, on Horridon, I could NEVER get into the 90th percentile because my raid group was solid - no weak links.  Thus, adds died on time and Horridon spent a smaller portion of his time at the 4th door taking 200% increased damage.  Since my teammates' DPS was higher, I was also presented with less opportunities to Shadowburn adds and Horridon. 

 

My parses looked weaker, but that was a product of my team actually performing well.  In most ranking logs, you'll find someone got to do the 'padding' while others sat on a boss to kill it quicker.  Take for example something like Immerseus.  In my old 25 mans, I was instructed to DPS the boss while the Warlock officer cleaned up adds.  He was always 250k higher than me.  This didn't mean he was better - it meant he got to do a more paddable job.

 

In my knowledge, 25 mans tend to have a few more weak links than in 10 man.  In 10 man, you notice a weak link far easier than you notice a couple of lackluster performers in 25.  However, if everyone is good in your 25, you'll come into a problem where EVERYONE does their job correctly and leaves out opportunities to perform 'padding' like activities.  Your DPS and damage done percentages are HEAVILY skewed when you're doing nothing but spamming Shadowburn on adds such as on Spoils.  In my 10 man, my raid knows to stop hitting mobs below 20%.  It's NOT for padding - it's for me to always have a supply of Embers so I can easily take out the Sparks - but other groups may just let their Warlocks Shadowburn everything that moves - thus you have your 400k parses.  In those 400k parses, someone else is doing much less of a contribution thus skewing the result.  Unless it's a single target zerg, you're going to see the shift of 25 90th % players become 5 99% and 20 80-85%.  It's just the balance of how much damage is available to be dealt. 

 

Group comp, roles, responsibilities, and RNG can play a HUGE role in your damage contribution.  I've always argued that my logs look 'weaker' than most because I surround myself with able-minded players.  When I raided in a 25 man in the past and I was consistently throwing up 97%+, I knew I wasn't just winning the DPS meter - there were others enabling me to outperform what I SHOULD be able to do.  I still get people who send me messages and tells telling me I'm garbage because of my parses.  I just laugh it off because I have a deeper understanding of what damage really means.  I can look at any log and point out why anyone did so much damage and why someone else did so little.  It goes back to Dragon Soul when we had Heroic Deathwing on farm - remember those blobs that spawned?  We let one person each week 'pad' on these to push a high ranking - we did this 7 times for each of our DPS to boast the best rank possible.  Does this strategy lend itself to actually defeating the encounter?  Yes - but only after it's been defeated and defeating it is muscle memory.

 

TL;DR: Your parses will suffer if you play with highly skilled players.  If you're pushing monster parses in a 25 man setting, someone else is letting you do it or they are the weak link.  Same goes in 10 man, but to a lesser, more obvious degree.

[JvChequer 43]

I feels bad after reading all that what zagam says because I've 94th % at Pro-raiders/Epeen-bot and looks like my core sucks and I'm padding D:

Zagam u broke my heart.

[Zagam 1,982]

Post your logs and I'll tell you if you're carrying your group or surrounded by awesome players.  It doesn't automatically mean you're not a 94th percentile player - it is strictly fight dependent.  Being 94th percentile on Iron Juggernaut is great.  Being 94th percentile because no one touched the slimes on Dark Shamans except you has some room for interpretation.

 

Pro-raiders means almost nothing because of the situations I put above.  It's also possible to fake logs, so some of those are hard to believe. 

[Liquidsteel 279]

Chequer. Play Demo in 10 man and enjoy 98th percentile whilst still fucking stuff up (90% uptime on Doom on Thok whoops).

[Zagam 1,982]

Yup - I played Demo one week and scored 99+% everywhere.  Someone goes 'holy shit, Zag, you're #38 on Pro-Raiders!'  I responded - 'yeah, because no one plays Demonology in a progression raid right now.  I did it to rank one week, I'll be back to the top of the meters next week.'  You can disappear in 25 mans and do your own thing.  You can't do that in 10 man - everyone is accountable.  I've done enough in 10 and 25 to know the different requirements.

 

That said, bring on 20 man.  No more of this 10v25 bullshit.  Everyone will be compared on a similar platform.  I cannot wait.

[gahhda 95]

>Aoe Fight

>Concerned about log rankings

>Doesn't account for hilarious padders

>/Thread

[Recklessfear 33]

>Aoe Fight

>Concerned about log rankings

>Doesn't account for hilarious padders

>/Thread

Couldn't care less about log rankings.

 

I care about MY dps difference I saw transitioning from a 10m to a 25m.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Recklessfear

[JvChequer 43]

Post your logs and I'll tell you if you're carrying your group or surrounded by awesome players.  It doesn't automatically mean you're not a 94th percentile player - it is strictly fight dependent.  Being 94th percentile on Iron Juggernaut is great.  Being 94th percentile because no one touched the slimes on Dark Shamans except you has some room for interpretation.

 

Pro-raiders means almost nothing because of the situations I put above.  It's also possible to fake logs, so some of those are hard to believe.

My core it's kinda funny, everyone wants to kills the other fellow to bring more dps on table.

It's pretty fun my farm raiding, I'll miss that when change to 25H next week, if we indeed kill garrosh this week, need to work better at phase 3 and 4.

At least T1 it's working fine, 20~23 energy most of times. One try we accomplished 19 energy, was amazing.

Btw, I don't know how to fake logs, and I'm not telling am I good or my core sucks or I'm padding and stuff, just jocking about what u say =D

My logs are at:

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/guilds/reportslist/62/

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/guild/62/latest/

Some really bad, some really good, RNG it's a bitch.

 

Chequer. Play Demo in 10 man and enjoy 98th percentile whilst still fucking stuff up (90% uptime on Doom on Thok whoops).

Looks Delicious.

But I'm to lazy to change my affli off-spec D:

Edited March 18, 2014 by JvChequer

[Cardio33 3]

You're witnessing what many people don't understand.  In 10 mans, if you're the best player, it gets highlighted to a high degree.  In a lot of 10 mans I know with exceptional parses, they were seemingly manipulating the fight data.  For example, on Horridon, I could NEVER get into the 90th percentile because my raid group was solid - no weak links.  Thus, adds died on time and Horridon spent a smaller portion of his time at the 4th door taking 200% increased damage.  Since my teammates' DPS was higher, I was also presented with less opportunities to Shadowburn adds and Horridon. 

 

My parses looked weaker, but that was a product of my team actually performing well.  In most ranking logs, you'll find someone got to do the 'padding' while others sat on a boss to kill it quicker.  Take for example something like Immerseus.  In my old 25 mans, I was instructed to DPS the boss while the Warlock officer cleaned up adds.  He was always 250k higher than me.  This didn't mean he was better - it meant he got to do a more paddable job.

 

In my knowledge, 25 mans tend to have a few more weak links than in 10 man.  In 10 man, you notice a weak link far easier than you notice a couple of lackluster performers in 25.  However, if everyone is good in your 25, you'll come into a problem where EVERYONE does their job correctly and leaves out opportunities to perform 'padding' like activities.  Your DPS and damage done percentages are HEAVILY skewed when you're doing nothing but spamming Shadowburn on adds such as on Spoils.  In my 10 man, my raid knows to stop hitting mobs below 20%.  It's NOT for padding - it's for me to always have a supply of Embers so I can easily take out the Sparks - but other groups may just let their Warlocks Shadowburn everything that moves - thus you have your 400k parses.  In those 400k parses, someone else is doing much less of a contribution thus skewing the result.  Unless it's a single target zerg, you're going to see the shift of 25 90th % players become 5 99% and 20 80-85%.  It's just the balance of how much damage is available to be dealt. 

 

Group comp, roles, responsibilities, and RNG can play a HUGE role in your damage contribution.  I've always argued that my logs look 'weaker' than most because I surround myself with able-minded players.  When I raided in a 25 man in the past and I was consistently throwing up 97%+, I knew I wasn't just winning the DPS meter - there were others enabling me to outperform what I SHOULD be able to do.  I still get people who send me messages and tells telling me I'm garbage because of my parses.  I just laugh it off because I have a deeper understanding of what damage really means.  I can look at any log and point out why anyone did so much damage and why someone else did so little.  It goes back to Dragon Soul when we had Heroic Deathwing on farm - remember those blobs that spawned?  We let one person each week 'pad' on these to push a high ranking - we did this 7 times for each of our DPS to boast the best rank possible.  Does this strategy lend itself to actually defeating the encounter?  Yes - but only after it's been defeated and defeating it is muscle memory.

 

TL;DR: Your parses will suffer if you play with highly skilled players.  If you're pushing monster parses in a 25 man setting, someone else is letting you do it or they are the weak link.  Same goes in 10 man, but to a lesser, more obvious degree.

I disagree a bit here.  If there are single target fights and you are in a strong group (Iron Juggs), your dps will look better with a strong group than a week group b/c you have a larger portion of time spent under bloodlust.

 

Example:

Good Group - 4 min kill = 18% BL uptime, 25% demon uptime

Bad group - 8 min kill = 9% BL uptime, 12% demon uptime

 

I could do the same with trinket proc uptime but you get the point.

[Zagam 1,982]

That's a solid point, but typically manipulation of adds or increasing your damage against increased damage taking mobs will have a higher effect than Bloodlust. 

 

Of course, on single target fights, it becomes a who can do the most check.  Every raid tier needs one of these.  However, there really is only one this tier and even it can be abused with Havoc.  Also, there is no way in hell that a bad group does LITERALLY half of a good group.  We're talking about a drop from 5 minutes to 4, not 8 to 4.  If you're trying to compare 8 minute kills to 4 minute kills, you might as well compare a 14/14H group to a group doing Flex.  That doesn't pass the reason check.