wow Covenants Are Much Worse for Multi-Spec Players

[Starseed 113]

3 hours ago, Bobbis said:

What about those of us who want to tank M+, Heal raids, and DPS in open world (last one less an issue as it's just open world stuff tbf)?

I don't want to do the same *filtered* every week on 3 druids (or even 2) just to be competitive, and try and gear them all. I have multiple druids at 120 now on different servers mainly for cosmetics/race/horde vs ally reasons, but only really play the one, since it does the same as the others but has the gear, and has been my main for 12 years now and just feels, better? 

We're already pushing the same raid and same dungeons every week for the foreseeable, but redoing all the renown and torghast stuff on the same class just to be somewhat optimal when they could just have soulbinds change on spec seems ridiculous and ANOTHER case of not learning from the issues of the past. (AP in weapons, Azerite at BFA launch).

 

And what about those of us who dont? What about those who feel pressured to learn to play different specs/roles because guilds and m+ groups like to favor those who can switch between roles.

But to make this clear i can totaly understand that you and other people like this kind of playstyle and shadowlands is a bummer for you guys but its a nice time for people like me and i hope you can see why we are happy about this.

[Logos89 8]

17 hours ago, Bobbis said:

You still have that, just without the unnecessary 5 rank you do 1% more damage with X talents.

Talents that can be swapped on a whim. You missed the entire point of my post. What made Wrath's system work was that I could have two arms specs (each individually beat fury at ST / AoE respectively) but it cost me a tank spec, or I could go cookie cutter arms, which loses to cookie cutter fury, but I can tank on that character. Costs and preferences are the only thing that simcraft can't do for you, so that's the thing Blizzard needs to lean into, min/maxing what content you want your character to be "for" rather than min/maxing per fight.

17 hours ago, Bobbis said:

there were not many real scenarios where more than 2-3 talents changed per build.

Maybe, I think the devs should have made more of those situations viable, rather than making everything 100% meaningless. In my case it was more than 2-3 points, it was foregoing my last two talent rows entirely on Arms to grab Fury's dps cooldown. Gimped me hard for AoE but let me do wonders if I was assigned to boss. Also built my cousin a custom PvP spec for DK's that took advantage of the chaotic nature of unorganized BG's. He spent weeks trying the cookie cutter PvP specs of blood/frost/unholy, like what I built him better.

17 hours ago, Bobbis said:

granted, but there's still some builds like that now, just without the increasing gold sink.

Which means everyone is running them already. With less than 10 seconds, they are that build, and they are not that build. The point of the gold sink is that it's not expected that you'll go completely swap your talents around based on the nature of a particular fight, making talents just a UI chore you have to juggle around to play your character "optimally". 

[Bobbis 208]

5 hours ago, Logos89 said:

Talents that can be swapped on a whim. You missed the entire point of my post. What made Wrath's system work was that I could have two arms specs (each individually beat fury at ST / AoE respectively) but it cost me a tank spec, or I could go cookie cutter arms, which loses to cookie cutter fury, but I can tank on that character. Costs and preferences are the only thing that simcraft can't do for you, so that's the thing Blizzard needs to lean into, min/maxing what content you want your character to be "for" rather than min/maxing per fight.

But it didn't cost you a tank spec, only the time to go back to the trainer and pay to swap talents, then sort your UI out? I played a druid and did 4 roles in wrath, dual spec was a godsend when it came, still a pain going to balance/resto but I just kept an action bar set up for them ready to go. Bonus of current system, no flying back, UI kept between specs, and less time spent clicking on the filler talents.

5 hours ago, Logos89 said:

Maybe, I think the devs should have made more of those situations viable, rather than making everything 100% meaningless. In my case it was more than 2-3 points, it was foregoing my last two talent rows entirely on Arms to grab Fury's dps cooldown. Gimped me hard for AoE but let me do wonders if I was assigned to boss. Also built my cousin a custom PvP spec for DK's that took advantage of the chaotic nature of unorganized BG's. He spent weeks trying the cookie cutter PvP specs of blood/frost/unholy, like what I built him better.

That would be cool, and from what I've read/heard that's the way Path of Exile goes, but given they struggle hugely to balance the specs as we have them, it'd just lead to a lot of issues. Some specs still have that choice, looking at SV hunter, I made my own that made use of different azerite traits for a more balanced ST and AoE build rather than focusing on one, and did fine in M+, but look at BM and you're only real choice is the last row. Or SP where there is no choice, it's use the main build or do shite dps...

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Which means everyone is running them already. With less than 10 seconds, they are that build, and they are not that build. The point of the gold sink is that it's not expected that you'll go completely swap your talents around based on the nature of a particular fight, making talents just a UI chore you have to juggle around to play your character "optimally". 

As opposed to a mage port to SW/Org, reset talents, lock portal back that we did in Wrath? 

[Logos89 8]

15 hours ago, Bobbis said:

But it didn't cost you a tank spec, only the time to go back to the trainer and pay to swap talents, then sort your UI out?

Depends on what I needed the gold for. Preferred to use my gold for other things rather than respeccing. Opportunity cost is a hell of a balancing mechanic.

15 hours ago, Bobbis said:

Bonus of current system, no flying back, UI kept between specs, and less time spent clicking on the filler talents.

Downside of the system, there is no system. You can literally make an addon where you tell the addon what spec you have, what fight you're on, and have the addon just perfectly optimize everything for you with the click of a button as long as you have tome of tranquil mind.

15 hours ago, Bobbis said:

As opposed to a mage port to SW/Org, reset talents, lock portal back that we did in Wrath? 

Sure if you had the gold, you could do that in Wrath. I guess that's a good argument that the gold cost should have ramped up 100x faster.

[Bobbis 208]

7 hours ago, Logos89 said:

Depends on what I needed the gold for. Preferred to use my gold for other things rather than respeccing. Opportunity cost is a hell of a balancing mechanic.

Sure if you had the gold, you could do that in Wrath. I guess that's a good argument that the gold cost should have ramped up 100x faster.

A fair point to both, though I never had a huge amount of gold, enough to get by and get dual spec and flying for stuff, but never massive amounts and found all the respeccing fine.

7 hours ago, Logos89 said:

Downside of the system, there is no system. You can literally make an addon where you tell the addon what spec you have, what fight you're on, and have the addon just perfectly optimize everything for you with the click of a button as long as you have tome of tranquil mind.

Never heard of or looked for such an addon, but surely the same could have applied to wrath times so long as you reset your talent points? Assuming we had the same tools available such as raidbots and simcraft.

[Logos89 8]

11 hours ago, Bobbis said:

Never heard of or looked for such an addon, but surely the same could have applied to wrath times so long as you reset your talent points? Assuming we had the same tools available such as raidbots and simcraft.

Maybe it could have. But all this is arguing from my position is that Wrath should have been more strict, which is what the weekly lockout is intending to do.