Heroic raider with top end spec questions

[skullytor 4]

so i run an alt lock that i LOVE playing and ive finally been able to get into a few pug heroic runs recently and have gotten insanely lucky with drops. ilvl = 569, im currently playing most fights as a destro running 10k haste, maximum mastery and minimum crit. my trinkets are (h) kadriss' and (h) immers, however i sometimes flip to affliction and swap the heroic kadriss' trink out for a warforged black blood. so heres my actual question: at a 570ish ilvl should i be playing primarily as affliction or destro, specifically single target? im starting to hear that affliction, with the proper trinkets (black blood) is pulling ahead at higher ilvls. im curious if a) this is true and b) if it is true then at what ilvl does it roughly begin to pull ahead

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/stormrage/%C3%96blivion/simple

[Lockybalboa 618]

Aff pulls ahead with short fights, good RNG, and knowing how to extend DoTs with SS. 

 

Aff has a much larger min/max, pull to pull swing of well over 250k. Destro is even(er) and will be better for any progression fight.

[Moozedude 47]

Out of curiosity, does the haste>mastery>crit build give decent output?  Conventional wisdom had been mastery/crit/haste for destro.

[Astynax 24]

Out of curiosity, does the haste>mastery>crit build give decent output?  Conventional wisdom had been mastery/crit/haste for destro.

Mastery > haste = crit for destro.

Mastery >~= haste, to cap, > crit. (Still very mastery heavy.) For aff.

The destro dps differential between crit > haste or haste > crit is within the margin for error. It's a playstyle thing. If you are annoyed by the common gcd capping of high haste build, you prioritize crit. If you prefer the added passive casting speed (personally, I feel more adaptable with high haste) then you prioritize haste over crit. In theory, crit is better on a purely single target fight, but It's insignificant.

[Strife 6]

What I did was just look at raidbots 85th - 90th percentile to get rid of alot of the cheesing parses and see how destro vs aff we're doing on certain fights.

 

Then I just tried them out and determined which I felt were better for a given fight based on my raid and how we did things.

 

Alot of Aff is raid strategy and how good raid dps is as well which you need to remember when looking at parses.

That means short single target fights like IJ and Malk, and high health multi-target fights like Protectors. It is also really good on Norushen and Nazgrim if you are good at extending your dots and using the SS in-> Haunt or MG tick -> SS out and keeping high Haunt uptime on the Amalgam/Nazgrim. If you can manage your dots and casts correctly, those two fights give you pretty much unlimited shards.

Then there are fights where Aff can be good based on mechanics like Thok. I've always ran Aff on Thok and have pulled the highest overall and thok dps the past 2 weeks while still doing ~20M to the bats. Sha of Pride can get really high parses as well but that's alot more RNG based because it relies on snapshotting Power of the Titans buff and how many times you get it through the fight, I personally don't run Aff on Sha.  

 

Galakras and Spoils can have high parses but it comes down to raid strategy. Galakras you basically have to stay down the whole time and know how to extend your empowered dots and carry seeds as you SS. Spoils depends on how your raid does boxes and if you can SS dots to new boxes before old ones die. I still run Destro on both of these just because it's more consistent and the dps on these fights is pretty comparable at the top end. 

 

I personally hate destro the most of the 3 specs so I played Aff on 6 progression fights in heroic. From my comments, you'll probably notice I play Aff for Protectors, Norushen, IJ, Nazgrim, Malk, and Thok currently which can all be strong fights to practice Aff on. But then again, what necessarily works for me may not alyways be ideal for your raid group, especially if you run 10M instead of 25M. But that should give you a good starting point. Also the 13K haste bp is ideal but I ran the 10K haste bp during progression since I didn't have different Aff/Destro gear other than the normal BBoY vs H KTT.

[skullytor 4]

thanks for the advice strife, the fights you pointed out were exactly the fights i was running aff when i originally posted. Ive found in general that i agree with several others that posted in saying that destro is significantly more consistent than aff overall. on fights with a consistent 5+ adds its easy to get lost with which add is where on their dot cycle, and while i typically track it mentally fairly effectively, the moment something stressful happens (aka every 30 seconds on h garrosh) my rhythm is gone and i almost have to start over. anyways, think ill be sticking to destro until blizz decides to correct several imbalances with aff. besides thok, theres just no point to run destro through hardmode thok lol

 

edit: strife =/= thrice

Edited April 21, 2014 by skullytor

[Liquidsteel 279]

You're wrong about destro on Thok by the way.

Running low haste you can still always fit in an incinerate between roars. Between Unending Resolve and generally 1-3 Devotion Auras, you also get a lot of free casting time to dump embers. Backdraft stacks can also be used on Chaos Bolt.

Glyph of Havoc is incredible here too. Copy 2 Chaos Bolts onto the first Jailer, 6 Shadowburns from the Cave Bats onto the boss, and then one more use on second Jailer or Yeti for embers.

Did I mention the bats by the way? Yeah, watch your dps shoot up 100k when those come down.

[Zagam 1,982]

Lots of questions about specs/stats in this here thread...want to toss my $0.02 in.

 

As stated, Mastery is king and the debate between Crit and Haste is such that there isn't one.  People argue based on personal preference.  Personal testing and lots of testimony from other high end players will state that Crit and Haste belong together, not far apart. 

 

As for specs, all three can be played very well and will NEVER be a reason your group wipes because of throughput unless you're making critical gameplay issues.  The reason that many say to play Destruction is that the spec is very simple.  If you're doing heroics, then you surely understand that the only thing you have to do as Destruction is maximize Chaos Bolt.  The rest happens on its own.  For Affliction, you have a TON of micro-management and your eyes tend to watch Affdots or some other addon to assist with decision making during your rotation.  For this reason, learning Heroic fights puts an extra bind on you in that you're learning mechanics or seeing them from another standpoint.  Affliction also has the highest penalty for making a mistake - overwriting a 10 stack BBoY set of DoTs is a HUGE DPS loss - more so than any one decision can be made as Destruction.  If you play both specs perfectly, then you're subject to RNG with the difference in DPS. 

[gahhda 95]

You're wrong about destro on Thok by the way.

Running low haste you can still always fit in an incinerate between roars. Between Unending Resolve and generally 1-3 Devotion Auras, you also get a lot of free casting time to dump embers. Backdraft stacks can also be used on Chaos Bolt.

Glyph of Havoc is incredible here too. Copy 2 Chaos Bolts onto the first Jailer, 6 Shadowburns from the Cave Bats onto the boss, and then one more use on second Jailer or Yeti for embers.

Did I mention the bats by the way? Yeah, watch your dps shoot up 100k when those come down.

 

The only reason destruction is even playable on that fight is bats, and my guild doesn't even technically need to do them anymore. I think we killed him in like two doors last week.

[Liquidsteel 279]

The only reason destruction is even playable on that fight is bats, and my guild doesn't even technically need to do them anymore. I think we killed him in like two doors last week.

Technically nor do we, but you can't just say 'if it wasn't for x mechanic than y spec would be unplayable'.

The bats are a part of most strategies, so you may as well make use of them. I was responding to someone saying it was pointless to play destro on Thok. Which simply isn't true.

[Belloc 6]

The only reason destruction is even playable on that fight is bats, and my guild doesn't even technically need to do them anymore. I think we killed him in like two doors last week.

Bats or not, destro is still a great spec on this fight when played properly. I was usually somewhere between 2nd and 4th place on damage done to Thok, as well as damage done overall. Destro is a strong spec for Thok.

[JvChequer 43]

Bats or not, destro is still a great spec on this fight when played properly. I was usually somewhere between 2nd and 4th place on damage done to Thok, as well as damage done overall. Destro is a strong spec for Thok.

 

But affliction it's king HANDS DOWN on it.

 

Destro only shines indeed because of bats.

 

Combine cds + pot + dark soul + G.UR = lovely 442k dps and over 20kk dmg on bats

[Zagam 1,982]

There is no 'king' of anything.  EVERYTHING is viable and within deltas for min/max. 

 

10 man - http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/5#boss=1599&metric=dps&size=10&class=Warlock

 

Difference between #1 Affliction and #3 Destruction is RNG.

 

25 man - http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/5#boss=1599&metric=dps&class=Warlock

 

Difference between #1 Affliction parse and #1 Destruction parse is front-loaded Affliction with highly beneficial RNG.

 

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH USING ANY SPEC ON THOK.  Destruction is not good ONLY for bats.  It is also great at taking out the Yeti with Havoc (if your group has troubles with it) and taking out the Jailer with HIGH efficiency with glyphed Havoc.

 

I don't know why there is such a persistence to say 'this is best' when there are always reasons with RNG, raid comp, and other things that lead into log parses.  Saying anything is 'king' is just absurd and shows a lack of understanding as to WHY Affliction is typically #1 on parses after tiers are on farm.  Do NOT use rankings to say why a certain spec is the best for a fight. 

[JvChequer 43]

There is no 'king' of anything.  EVERYTHING is viable and within deltas for min/max. 

 

10 man - http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/5#boss=1599&metric=dps&size=10&class=Warlock

 

Difference between #1 Affliction and #3 Destruction is RNG.

 

25 man - http://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/5#boss=1599&metric=dps&class=Warlock

 

Difference between #1 Affliction parse and #1 Destruction parse is front-loaded Affliction with highly beneficial RNG.

 

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH USING ANY SPEC ON THOK.  Destruction is not good ONLY for bats.  It is also great at taking out the Yeti with Havoc (if your group has troubles with it) and taking out the Jailer with HIGH efficiency with glyphed Havoc.

 

I don't know why there is such a persistence to say 'this is best' when there are always reasons with RNG, raid comp, and other things that lead into log parses.  Saying anything is 'king' is just absurd and shows a lack of understanding as to WHY Affliction is typically #1 on parses after tiers are on farm.  Do NOT use rankings to say why a certain spec is the best for a fight. 

 

There's not wrong use destro or aff for Thok.

But it's not wrong put on table what it's the best for any kinda aspect of the fight.

It's not about make ppl play with X spec or not, just warlocks talking about how each spec are in one fight.

 

Aff it's king on single target on thok. Farm or not, an destro and aff player with same skill will give more ST dmg on thok with affliction.

Destro it's king on bat/cleave jailer dmg on thok, more utility to your raid with more defensive skills for healping healers and stuff.

 

That's nothing wrong about "labeling" stuff since u know why it's labeled like this.

 

It's kinda hypocrite says that "everything its cool for every situation" where some specs are better for X job and others specs are better for Y job.

 

Not a big deal about it IMO, justa a good, funnier and healthy warlocky talk.

Edited April 24, 2014 by JvChequer

[Liquidsteel 279]

The only reason he responded as such was because both you and Gahhda claimed Destruction was either bad or leagues behind, which just isn't true, as you highlighted in your most recent post.

 

The whole of SoO right now can be done entirely as Affliction or Destruction and you'll see amazing results with both specs compared to other classes.

 

But we need to stop with the "x spec is only good because of y mechanic", especially when most of us have it on farm.

[Zagam 1,982]

Aff it's king on single target on thok. Farm or not, an destro and aff player with same skill will give more ST dmg on thok with affliction.

Destro it's king on bat/cleave jailer dmg on thok, more utility to your raid with more defensive skills for healping healers and stuff.

Here's my point about this rebuttal - if you play Affliction and sit single target on the boss, who is killing the bats?  Your teammates?  So now THEIR DPS goes down because your single target DPS is focused on Thok.  It's not ALWAYS about your individual numbers which is my entire point.  Sure, Affliction's numbers might be higher than Destruction's by a small margin, but who compensates for the lack of AoE you do as Affliction as opposed to Destruction?  For example, in my 10 man, we play with 2 Warlocks.  If he and I focus the bats down, everyone else gets to sit on the boss, thus decrease the fight encounter and increase raid DPS. 

 

It's easy to analyze single person numbers - you have to remember, when giving advice, to see the big picture and realize that everything has a cause and effect.

[Strife 6]

Depends on your raid really and how comfortable you are at Aff.

 

In 25M I do about 12-15M bat damage as Affliction saving my 2nd pot and charge of Dark Soul for the bats then right before the bats come out, SB:SS on Thok, Seed on one of the bats, Inhale off Thok, exhale on Seed bat, then just SS around to all the bats carrying the seed.

 

So Aff can still contribute to bats while being in top 3 overall and thok dps even with my raid which has 3 hunters. I destroy the destro on Thok dps though it's not even funny, at least in my raid. 15M extra damage from AoE on bats isn't comparable to like 30M more damage on Thok imho. The only time those extra few seconds on faster bats helps is if your raid is struggling and dieing to bats in the first place, this late in the tier I don't see that happening for many guilds. 

 

Like people said, there's not one universal spec, it depends on your raid. Aff is alot better imho if you are good at it and have Thok on farm, especially in 25M where AoE on bats is alot more spread out across multiple classes. 

Edited April 24, 2014 by Strife

[Zagam 1,982]

10 and 25 have a VERY different contribution from specific DPS.  If I was in a 25 man, I'd be playing Affliction or Demonology for fun and getting away with it.  In a 10 man, I can't give up what Destruction does for us.  As a DPS, I'm 16% (1 of 6) of our DPS contribution, so nerfing it in particular parts of fights can create a drastic swing.  In a 25 man, I'd be 1 of 19, or just over 5% of our DPS, which is quite significant.  25s also cover more buffs and debuffs and has a drastic change in DPS.  I've looked at my logs in a 25 vs 10 and they are VERY different. 

 

As long as you provide your contribution to the fight, play on.  Every group is different.  Even if I'm going against a Hunter for bat damage the same as someone else is, my Hunter might be better, limiting the amount of DPS I can do during that burst AoE which makes my numbers look worse.  It goes back to what I've said before - when you play with equal calibur players who are exceptional, there are less opportunities to squeeze out extra padding.  25 man DPS is often higher because the number of people chosen to deal with mechanics is less, so they can focus on DPS more. 

 

It's just contradictory to say that this spec is the best for any fight because of how things change based on composition and responsibility.  Notice in the Tier guide I created MONTHS ago, it says "recommended spec", not "best" spec.  Being the top DPS in a group is often falsely attributed to being the best DPS in the group.  I always look for top damage done to adds, most interrupts pulled off, highest number of rifts closed, etc.  In WoD, there will be a higher focus on mechanics and a lower focus on DPS.  Those DPS kings and queens you see now will have the game change VERY drastically on them as they'll be forced to deal with more mechanics because of the consolidation of 10 and 25 into 20.

[fordfiesta 1]

Destro on Thok and mentioning bats as the savior of its dps there .....

 

I play aff in a group that also has a destro lock, and he's last or close to last in dps until bats come out, when he shoots up for a brief moment before dropping back down after bats are gone.  He outgears me by a lot, I don't even have an lfr bindings and he has h wf bindings and totem, and at least 574 in every slot while I have several pieces of normal gear still on my warlock.

 

The only thing saving destruction on that fight is those bats.  Moral of the story is don't play destro on thok if you know how to aff.

[Desos 18]

@fordfiesta
Seems more like a bad player  than issues with mechanics... You can easily get a got shot at Thok as destro. For max damage,  you have to play affli but saying destro is weak on thok is not correct. It is #2 on top 100 parses on raidbots after Affli.

[Liquidsteel 279]

 

 

The only thing saving destruction on that fight is those bats.  Moral of the story is don't play destro on thok if you know how to aff.

Moral of the story is anecdotal evidence in mid tier guilds doesn't really mean all that much, where the skill level of players can be vastly imbalanced.

 

Like how many times do we have to bring this up where there is more to it than just "X spec is better because I beat another player of Y spec".

 

By this logic, until any of you break 515K on Thok as Affliction, I have the right to tell you Destro is unequivocally better. 

[Lockybalboa 618]

Destro on Thok and mentioning bats as the savior of its dps there .....

 

I play aff in a group that also has a destro lock, and he's last or close to last in dps until bats come out, when he shoots up for a brief moment before dropping back down after bats are gone.  He outgears me by a lot, I don't even have an lfr bindings and he has h wf bindings and totem, and at least 574 in every slot while I have several pieces of normal gear still on my warlock.

 

The only thing saving destruction on that fight is those bats.  Moral of the story is don't play destro on thok if you know how to aff.

 

 

That only means that the destro warlock in your group doesn't do Thok well as destro. That has no reflection on the spec as a whole. Skill>spec in all cases.

 

Moral of the story is: don't incorrectly extrapolate unproven, insufficient data to prove a general theory. 

[skullytor 4]

  For example, in my 10 man, we play with 2 Warlocks.  If he and I focus the bats down, everyone else gets to sit on the boss, thus decrease the fight encounter and increase raid DPS. 

 

It's easy to analyze single person numbers - you have to remember, when giving advice, to see the big picture and realize that everything has a cause and effect.

Well said. 

I didnt want to be "that" guy, but when i originally wrote this post a few months ago i was actually interested in "specifically single target" comparisons....so....now that we've discussed the irrelevance of spec when it comes to aoe, how do yall feel about single target?

Edited May 8, 2014 by skullytor

[Zagam 1,982]

I feel that RNG has more of an effect on your DPS than anything else.  No other reason for me doing 330k to Malkorok one week and 425k the following week.  It's all in the procs.