Assassination Rogue PvE

[positiv2 953]

This thread is for comments about our Assassination Rogue Shadowlands Guide.

[Guest Valkorn]

Hello,

Why don't you use Ambush instead of Mutilate after exitting from stealth in the 'SUBTERFUGE' opener case.

[Seliathan 12]

Hey Valkorn. It is due to the higher Combo Point generation of Mutilate (as it generates up to 4 CP if it crits) which offsets the slightly lower damage that Mutilate deals compared to Ambush, as well as the the chance to proc a free Ambush with Blindside.

[Guest Valkorn]

Thanks ! Seems logic 

[reddy 0]

With Sepsis proc, do we want to use Ambush or just Mutilate still? As you've said above, Mutilate has a chance to generate more CPs and Sepsis is unlike the Blindside proc and costs energy.

[Seliathan 12]

Hey reddy,

you are indeed correct that the same logic applies to Sepsis. You simply don't use the Ambush proc from Sepsis, and just Mutilate instead as long as you have Blindside talented.

[Guest Ninja Flibble]

I would recommend adding a note in that Subterfuge is the preferred talent in the level 25 row in all cases only if you have the Master Assassin legendary. The crit chance increase of the legendary and the talent do not stack and the legendary provides the stronger effect.

[Seliathan 12]

Hey Ninja Flibble,

we decided not to include a disclaimer of that kind, as it is hopefully somewhat self-explanatory that crit-chance is still capped at 100%, and getting any more than that is redundant. It is a bit weird that the talent is still in the game since the legendary returned and they even both carry the same name, but it just happens to be one of many reasons why Assassination as a spec feels somewhat neglected. As both benefits are reliant on your stealth, playing with either one of them significantly devalues the other. As Mark of the Master Assassin already is not recommended for any type of content, the talent recommendation of Master Assassin still holds some weight to it though.

[Guest Janzz]

Hey! I am wondering if Ambush should be used over Mutilate in the situations where it is available if I use Elaborate Planning talent instead of Blindside.

[Seliathan 12]

Hey Janzz.

Even without Blindside, Ambush is simply not worth using. Mutilate can generate more Combo Points and also hits twice, resulting in more poison applications. The only exception would be the stealth-ability cast you gain from using Sepsis, you will want to Ambush there. 

[Hemstrom 0]

So Mark of the Master Assassin isn't a recommended legendary for M+? Doesn't the critchance apply to Garrote? Im having a hard time choosing between Zoldyck, Dashing Scoundrel or the one mentioned above.

Zoldyck just feels lackluster imo, and Dashing Scoundrel seems like a minor gain considering i will be using Crimson Tempest or Rupture on packs in M+.

Happy for any suggestions, thanks

[Seliathan 12]

Hey Hemstrom,

Mark of the Master Assassin increases your global critical strike chance by 100%. That includes Garrote, as well as any other damage abilities. It also affects dungeon buffs like the ones in Necrotic Wake. The crit-chance is not being snapshot however, so your Garrotes will only have this increased crit-chance while the buff is active (4 seconds after leaving stealth).

The main issue with MA in m+, is that you spend your first three GCDs on Garrote. During that time, while all your dot-ticks are critical hits, you're only ramping up your AoE. It takes a while for Assassination to get its bleeds out and by that time, the crit buff has long disappeared.

Zoldyck is therefore the strongest option, as it provides a passive damage bonus to all your bleeds and poisons during execute. You usually have all your bleeds up on multiple targets when enemies hit that 30% Threshold, which is why this legendary is much more valuable. Bloodfang is another solid choice for AoE, but its sorely lacking on single-target whereas Zoldyck performs well on all types of fights.

Master Assassin is still fairly solid in Mythic+, but I personally recommend using Zoldyck instead. 

[Hemstrom 0]

Thanks for your answer, i went with the Master Assassin legendary. I think it smoothes out the rotation at the start because of the higher crit-chance. I also picked the ring slot to get some more haste which is very important as Assassination. I also play some Subtlety in PvP so its nice with a legendary i can use in both specs.

But thanks for the input, i will consider the other options in the future.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Hemstrom

[Seliathan 12]

MA is definitely nice for the consistent CP generation on FoK, which is why it's still one of the better choices especially in Mythic+. It just gets outperformed overall by Zoldyck, but gameplay comfortability is always an important thing, and getting consistent openers contributes to that quite a bit as Assassination. 

The point about it being a good legendary for other specs is certainly true as well, so I don't think theres a big need to switch to Zoldyck anytime soon :)

[Guest Solviante]

Hi (sorry for my english), just seen the future adjustments to assassination spec with 9.0.5, do you think both legendaries "Dashing Scoundrel" and "Doomblade" could become interesting (i'm playing principaly MM+), because of that with the SnD refreshing with Envenom, we will cast a few more Envenom ?

Thank you. :)

[Seliathan 12]

Hey Solviante :)

Doomblade will definitely be a very powerful legendary for raid, but due to how we generally generate CP in AoE with Fan of Knives, not Mutilate, its usefulness in Mythic+ will stay fairly low. There are a few dungeons where mob pulls are often very small where it could be nice, but I think overall you will want to play either Dashing, Zoldyck or Master Assassin.

Zoldyck should be better for general damage, while Dashing is gonna make the rotation a bit smoother. It remains to be seen how high the Envenom uptimes are in AoE, as that will directly impact how good Dashing will be in AoE scenarios. Between Maintaining Ruptures and Crimson Tempest on AoE, we might still not be able to generate enough CP to maintain a high Envenom Uptime on AoE.

[Guest Solviante]

Hi,

Thank you for your reply, i just saw i asked you about Doomblade when i was thinking about Bloodfang (that's why i was saying sorry about my english ahah...), i'm sorry, i principaly wanted to know if Bloodfang could be better than Zoldyck in MM+ with the 9.0.5. When i read the description ingame in my rogue, i can see around 1250 damage over 6sec, could it be great in MM+ where AoE damage is really important ?

Thank you !

[Seliathan 12]

Hey Solviante.

Bloodfang sadly doesn't match up to the damage potential of Zoldyck, MA or Dashing Scoundrel on AoE. While the bleed does adecent amount of damage, it doesn't apply very often and thus stays behind the other options in overall damage output. A lot of these effects don't proc more often in AoE than on single-target, to ensure they are not always the best choice for AoE.

[Aranock 0]

Hey this guide has been very helpful. It seems that the stat priority for M+ has changed. Is there any info as to why that is? Why is haste more valuable now for AoE? I would think with venomous wounds giving slightly more energy it would make haste less useful if anything. Is it because of the SnD change? Also this might need a quick correction:

 

For raiding the secondary stat priority for Assassination Rogue is as follows:

1. Haste;
2. Critical Strike;
3. Versatility;
4. Mastery.

For Mythic+ your secondary stat priority changes quite drastically:

1. Haste;
2. Critical Strike;
3. Versatility;
4. Mastery.

(Since the stat weights are the same this does not quite apply any more)

*Edit - It's because the rank 2 of SnD gives energy regen, which we no longer get due to 9.0.5.

thanks

Edited March 11, 2021 by Aranock
Noticed a thing

[Projektmage 5]

Hi there,

Sorry if this sounds like a silly question but since the change in 9.0.5 I haven't really been able to get a straight answer. My guild is progressing Sire (just heroic) and I've swapped from Outlaw to Assassination for the increase in single target damage, which we need. I was just wondering which legendary would provide greater single target DPS - Zoldyck or Doomblade? I was thinking Doomblade since I won't really be on adds at all, minus bleeds of course and Doomblade is simming higher (although I understand the sim is basically non moving target dummy). I was hoping to get some perspective from someone who has killed the boss using these - or is just better at rogue than I am :D

Thanks in advance!

[Seliathan 12]

On 3/11/2021 at 11:15 PM, Aranock said:

Hey this guide has been very helpful. It seems that the stat priority for M+ has changed. Is there any info as to why that is? Why is haste more valuable now for AoE? I would think with venomous wounds giving slightly more energy it would make haste less useful if anything. Is it because of the SnD change? Also this might need a quick correction:

 

For raiding the secondary stat priority for Assassination Rogue is as follows:

1. Haste;
2. Critical Strike;
3. Versatility;
4. Mastery.

For Mythic+ your secondary stat priority changes quite drastically:

1. Haste;
2. Critical Strike;
3. Versatility;
4. Mastery.

(Since the stat weights are the same this does not quite apply any more)

*Edit - It's because the rank 2 of SnD gives energy regen, which we no longer get due to 9.0.5.

thanks

Hey Aranock, thanks for pointing it out. The typo for the Mythic+ secondaries has already been fixed by now :)

Regarding your secondary stats, its mostly related due to the amount of damage we currently deal with poisons and bleeds, compared to previous iterations or versions of the spec. The Venomous Wounds change made Haste more valuable, as having more Haste now lets you generate more energy quicker (as the bleeds tick faster, you get more VW procs which are now generating more Energy). Currently there's no major loss in applying bleeds to more targets than necessary for energy sustain. Assassination and Rogue in general also has a bigger focus on single-target and low-target cleave damage again, which is where Haste draws most of its value from for Mythic+.
While Critical Strike and Versatility still boost your raw AoE damage the best on large pulls, these don't generally happen all too often in regular Mythic+ play at the moment, which is why we recommend Haste over the remaining stats at this time. If your goal is to fully optimize for just AoE, Crit+Vers are still your best stat options. 

[Seliathan 12]

21 hours ago, Projektmage said:

Hi there,

Sorry if this sounds like a silly question but since the change in 9.0.5 I haven't really been able to get a straight answer. My guild is progressing Sire (just heroic) and I've swapped from Outlaw to Assassination for the increase in single target damage, which we need. I was just wondering which legendary would provide greater single target DPS - Zoldyck or Doomblade? I was thinking Doomblade since I won't really be on adds at all, minus bleeds of course and Doomblade is simming higher (although I understand the sim is basically non moving target dummy). I was hoping to get some perspective from someone who has killed the boss using these - or is just better at rogue than I am 😄

Thanks in advance!

Hey Projektmage.

If you're just progressing Denathrius, it will mostly depend on what your guild is struggling with the most. While Doomblade will provide you with higher damage in the first 2 stages of the fight, Zoldyck outperforms it vastly in the third phase, which generally starts at ~40% boss hp. Due to the high damage below 30% damage, this is considered more valuable as boss-damage in P1 and P2 doesn't need to be optimized as much, as these phases are mostly about killing the adds on time. If your guild or raid don't struggle with damage in these phases as much, and wipes come down to individual mistakes and not damage, I fully recommend playing Zoldck as it will greatly outperform Doomblade in the last phase of the encounter.

[Valengeta 0]

Hello, I want to ask why you so strongly recommend Zoldyk as the legendary of choice when Dashing Scoundrel is shown to be the overall best legendary for both ST and AOE in Bloodmallet? I understand the Execute damage it provides is very powerful but it looks to me as if Dashing provides a constant stream of damage through the whole fight while increasing our energy regen. 

Personally I'm using Dashing but will craft a Zoldyk when I have enough Soul Ash and compare the two through simulations, but I would like to understand your reasoning please. Thanks in advance!

[Seliathan 12]

1 hour ago, Valengeta said:

Hello, I want to ask why you so strongly recommend Zoldyk as the legendary of choice when Dashing Scoundrel is shown to be the overall best legendary for both ST and AOE in Bloodmallet? I understand the Execute damage it provides is very powerful but it looks to me as if Dashing provides a constant stream of damage through the whole fight while increasing our energy regen. 

Personally I'm using Dashing but will craft a Zoldyk when I have enough Soul Ash and compare the two through simulations, but I would like to understand your reasoning please. Thanks in advance!

Hey Valengeta, thanks for your question :)

As of right now, Assassination has 3 viable legendaries, that each excel in a particular environment.
-Doomblade with the strongest single-target damage
-Dashing with good sustained damage in st and aoe
-Zoldyck with very good execute damage in st and aoe

The reason for the Zoldyck recommendation ultimately comes down to the usefulness of its damage profile. Most encounters have increasing difficulty throughout multiple stages, and the most difficult phase is the last one. Reducing the time spent in those phases can be the difference between killing the boss or wiping at 1% or 2% boss hp, and as such Zoldyck is a powerful tool for any encounter that is structured like this.

As stated in the guide, there are of course exceptions to this, and the overall damage output you have at the end of the encounter will be slightly lower if you've been playing with Zoldyck, compared to the output you would've had with Dashing or Doomblade. A minor overall dps difference will not be as noticeable in a progression environment (which is what the guide is aimed at) as having 10% more damage during the last stage, however, and this will allow Assassination to have a powerful niche that few other classes or specs can provide. 

It is of course your choice on what you want to prioritize, and perfectly viable to play any of the other legendaries during progression. Doomblade is the strongest choice for raw single-target, and Dashing comes very close and feels a bit smoother to play. It is definitely a good idea to sim the difference and decide for yourself whether a small drop in DPS is worth having better execute damage or not, and if you craft Zoldyck next, you will be able to utilize the choice of which legendary to play to your advantage, as you can pick each one of them based on the encounter you will go into.

As a side-note, you can sim other legendaries on raidbots.com without the need to craft them. Just go to the top-gear page, copy-paste your simcraft string into it, and you will be shown an interface to add all legendaries with a certain item-level and secondary stats for comparison.

I hope this response was helpful, and please feel free to ask any other questions you might have :)

 

[Valengeta 0]

Hello again. Your explanation makes sense, since in a raid progression environment the Execute damage can indeed make the difference between a clear or a wipe. I like Dashing very much because the damage is consistent and helps with Assassination's greatest issue which is energy regeneration, but I will for sure craft a Zoldyk as well to use when the Execute damage is of more importance. Thanks for clarifying this