WOD Alpha Patch Notes

[Astynax 24]

Moreover, it stacks with the chaotic resources talent in a multiplicitave manner... Could make for some crazy dps increase if exploited correctly.

[Kazistrasz 216]

exploited

 

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Really, though. You sound like Ghostcrawler there. If they design it, and give it to us, and it's working exactly as intended, it's not an exploit. Period. No matter how much they didn't foresee the damage we can do with something, if the mechanics are working as intended, it's not an exploit. It's clever use of mechanics.

 

But, the kind of DPS potential that has is why I'm saying it won't go live as is.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Kazistrasz

[Severan 0]

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

verb:

ikˈsploit/

1.

make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource). I think he knows what it meant.

[mediocregatsby 18]

http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=156656

blizz tweeted this is the gosac for demo only. very interesting rework, but it makes sense considering blizz always wants demo to have a pet out.

[Kazistrasz 216]

 

verb:

ikˈsploit/

1.

make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource). I think he knows what it meant.

 

Connotation

Denotation

 

Words have context-specific meanings (connotations). In the case of gaming in general, "exploiting", "exploits", an "exploit", to "exploit", etc. all refer to taking an advantage of an unintended circumstance within the game (a "bug" usually) to do things outside the intended limits of your ability.

[Astynax 24]

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

Really, though. You sound like Ghostcrawler there. If they design it, and give it to us, and it's working exactly as intended, it's not an exploit. Period. No matter how much they didn't foresee the damage we can do with something, if the mechanics are working as intended, it's not an exploit. It's clever use of mechanics.

 

But, the kind of DPS potential that has is why I'm saying it won't go live as is.

 

 

You're correct, in such a way that I do not mean it is in any way cheaty to exploit it. Nevertheless, I do call this an exploit. It's not wrong. It's entirely intended, if it goes through. But in the same way I would call demo's UVLS usage an exploit. It's not inherently wrong in any way. It does, however, open the door for truly truly stupid scaling. I agree with you on the dps potential, and that is why I use the word exploit. By calling it this, I am not, in any way, saying it is unintended. Only that it could yield cheesy DPS. That's just my verbiage. It is, essentially, my way of denoting it as "potentially overpowered."

[Kazistrasz 216]

Calling UVLS and Doom an exploit is why we hate Ghostcrawler the most recent of the many things that made us hate Ghostcrawler. It's silly what we can potentially do with it, but that doesn't make it exploiting.

 

Yes, it's ridiculous to give us 35% extra crit on our spells - unless they put all of our pets on steroids we'd never have a reason to go with another talent on that tier IMO. That's just poor design on their part, and using the tools we're given on ours.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Kazistrasz

[Astynax 24]

Calling UVLS and Doom an exploit is why we hate Ghostcrawler the most recent of the many things that made us hate Ghostcrawler. It's silly what we can potentially do with it, but that doesn't make it exploiting.

 

Yes, it's ridiculous to give us 35% extra crit on our spells - unless they put all of our pets on steroids we'd never have a reason to go with another talent on that tier IMO. That's just poor design on their part, and using the tools we're given on ours.

 

 

My terminology is to call anything that silly an exploit. Just mine though. That's not to imply that it adheres to the connotations. Only that it's silly, and shouldn't probably, be put into the game. I don't consider it a vote of disapproval to anybody using it. But I would, and probably still will, call it exploiting the game mechanics, only because of how silly it could be. I don't think it's akin, in any way, to being cheaty. I just don't think it's balanced. Similar to, in BC, rolling a druid/hunter for PVP ranking. (as I recall, anyway.)

[mediocregatsby 18]

holy fuck can that please be the last post splitting hairs about a pointless argument. i know you both want to have the last word on it but it just doesnt matter. starting to sound like bnet forums.

 

anyways i missed this glyph earlier but damn it's pretty interesting

• Glyph of Life Pact - Mana costs on all your spells are reduced by ??%, but Life Tap can no longer be cast, and your health will drop by ??% per sec. Your health cannot drop below ??% from this effect.

 

this glyph leaves so many questions. what happens when you go oom? does the glyph just stop working below a certain health threshold? is the hp drain a constant effect even out of combat or does life tap become a toggle for the glyph? is the hp drain tuned to match life tap usage on a perfectly played affliction rotation? 

i'm surprised they're even considering taking out such a basic decision making element from the player. seems plausible the glyph wont make it to launch in that sense, but i hope it does just to try it out.

[Kazistrasz 216]

anyways i missed this glyph earlier but damn it's pretty interesting

• Glyph of Life Pact - Mana costs on all your spells are reduced by ??%, but Life Tap can no longer be cast, and your health will drop by ??% per sec. Your health cannot drop below ??% from this effect.

 

this glyph leaves so many questions. what happens when you go oom? does the glyph just stop working below a certain health threshold? is the hp drain a constant effect even out of combat or does life tap become a toggle for the glyph? is the hp drain tuned to match life tap usage on a perfectly played affliction rotation? 

i'm surprised they're even considering taking out such a basic decision making element from the player. seems plausible the glyph wont make it to launch in that sense, but i hope it does just to try it out.

 

I would assume the mana cost reduction is tuned to the amount you would need to Life Tap in normal settings, though I'm willing to bet the health drop will be more than the amount you'll normally lose to Life Tap. How much decision making is there really in using Life Tap these days? Below 35%? Push button; get mana. The health loss? Glyph of Life Tap (which I'm assuming this will replace?) should be taken as Demo and Aff anyway, since they don't have important major glyphs to prevent this getting a slot.

[Liquidsteel 279]

We'll have to see how much extra damage we take and if it will make things harder on progression.

 

Will be good for farm to save a few GCD's over the fight for sure.

[Soulzar 42]

Chaotic Resources and GoSac look like and absurd combo for single target Destro.

 

Not overly happy about the removal of Carrion Swarm, Soul Shatter, Fel Flame.....

Edited April 7, 2014 by Soulzar

[Kazistrasz 216]

I feel as though, as is, GoSac and Chaotic Resources would pretty be the be all end all even for multi-target situations - F&B Chaos Bolt with bonus 35% crit? YES PLEASE.

[Zagam 1,982]

Remember, anything that sounds too good to be true usually is.

[Soulzar 42]

It does not affect F&B sadly.

 

With the Sac versions all giving 35% crit now, curious if we will be ignoring Crit and be back to more Mastery/Haste universally between our specs... 

 

With Ember Generation and CB scaling taken care of by leveling perks, ChaoticR, and GoSac... hasted CB's may be the way to go over additional CB scaling with more crit.  With ~60% base crit and 300% ember generation with stacked haste, I could see us using Backdraft on CB's only just to spend embers quicker...

 

Demo seems like Crit wont be good.  I don't see us stacking crit only to cut it in half for our pet (if using GoSac, which probably wont), unless pets get a serious buff.  Doom got passive crit chance, and no other means of crit increasing fury generation as far as I see.  Looks like Haste all the way.

 

Are haste breakpoints still going to be the goal for Aff without snapshotting?

 

I am ok if they gear certain ones more towards certain specs but viable as options for others.  Like GoSac a Destro talent, GoServ Demo, and Aff GoSup 

[Zagam 1,982]

Demo seems like Crit wont be good.  I don't see us stacking crit only to cut it in half for our pet (if using GoSac, which probably wont), unless pets get a serious buff.  Doom got passive crit chance, and no other means of crit increasing fury generation as far as I see.  Looks like Haste all the way.

Crit will be good for Demonology.  Unless they change something, you still want Imps for Demonic Fury.  Crit is the best way to get them.  Without snapshotting, Doom just stays up and you can't get additional ticks for 90 seconds by casting it with Bloodlust.  The extra 20% will be beneficial to give you Imps 50% of the time on Doom ticks if you can get to 25% sheet crit + 5% raid buff, which isn't too costly or difficult to reach.  Crit also empowers Soul Fire, so that's important to remember.  Also, GoSac likely won't be the choice to take due to GoSup or GoServ because of the same reasons today - Demonic Fury generation and pet damage.  Pets get a 20% damage buff as we level from 90 to 100 - Supremacy would attach an additional 20% to that.  These effects wouldn't be additive - they'd be multplicative to the amount of 144% of what they do now. 

 

 

Are haste breakpoints still going to be the goal for Aff without snapshotting?

Haste breakpoints will be EXTREMELY important without snapshotting.  There won't be random Tempus Repits, Berserking, or other Haste effects such as Lifeblood running around in WoD.  Haste breakpoints will be very important to be at or just slightly over the cap you are most able to maintain.

 

However, there will likely be some synergy going on with Mastery, Crit, and Multistrike.  Multistrike will be a very interesting mechanic if, say, Nightfall can proc on Multistriked Corruptions.  There will be some math that will be used to solve for the best optimization of each stat for DPS.  HOPEFULLY the differences are small, much like they are now, and that proper gameplay makes up for a large portion of your DPS.

[Soulzar 42]

 

Crit will be good for Demonology.  Unless they change something, you still want Imps for Demonic Fury.  Crit is the best way to get them.  Without snapshotting, Doom just stays up and you can't get additional ticks for 90 seconds by casting it with Bloodlust.  The extra 20% will be beneficial to give you Imps 50% of the time on Doom ticks if you can get to 25% sheet crit + 5% raid buff, which isn't too costly or difficult to reach.  Crit also empowers Soul Fire, so that's important to remember.  Also, GoSac likely won't be the choice to take due to GoSup or GoServ because of the same reasons today - Demonic Fury generation and pet damage.  Pets get a 20% damage buff as we level from 90 to 100 - Supremacy would attach an additional 20% to that.  These effects wouldn't be additive - they'd be multplicative to the amount of 144% of what they do now. 

 

 

Yeah, Crit by no means is bad for Demo it just seems that without snapshotting Doom with high Crit from int procs, even the 20% buff is going to be a  wash from Doom's crit% today.  I don't see anything that translates into better fury generation from Crit outside of some RNG on Doom.  I think Haste with Demonic Calling is likely a more reliable source of Fury via imps, ignoring additional Soulfire scaling.  With Destro,  Haste and Crit effect the resource regen in a way that makes them both viable, does the same hold true with Demo?  Feels like haste will be stronger.  Just thinking out loud

 

I too feel GoSac wont be the best option for Demo, curious which will end up being best between GoServ and GoSup.  I remember in this tier we though the multiplicative nature of the tier bonus and GoSup would push it past but it still ended up to be more beneficial to have the option of the added cooldown to stack.  Difference this time around however, is the 20% is up full time and not a proc....

 

 

Haste breakpoints will be EXTREMELY important without snapshotting.  There won't be random Tempus Repits, Berserking, or other Haste effects such as Lifeblood running around in WoD.  Haste breakpoints will be very important to be at or just slightly over the cap you are most able to maintain.

 

However, there will likely be some synergy going on with Mastery, Crit, and Multistrike.  Multistrike will be a very interesting mechanic if, say, Nightfall can proc on Multistriked Corruptions.  There will be some math that will be used to solve for the best optimization of each stat for DPS.  HOPEFULLY the differences are small, much like they are now, and that proper gameplay makes up for a large portion of your DPS.

 

The only reason I questioned break points is I am not so sure that the importance will be the same without snapshoting.  it does make sense that extra ticks on a spec revolving around ticking dmg is the way to go, but without the ability to abuse those extra ticks with high proc snaptshoting, is RNG of "extra ticks" via crits going to out pace?  Probably not, just brainstorming.

 

Crit to Demon in Demo makes sense (Despite sac not making sense), Crit to destro .. makes sence....  Crit to Aff?   Unless its a means to gently nudge us towards Supremacy for Affliction....

[Astynax 24]

The only reason I questioned break points is I am not so sure that the importance will be the same without snapshoting.  it does make sense that extra ticks on a spec revolving around ticking dmg is the way to go, but without the ability to abuse those extra ticks with high proc snaptshoting, is RNG of "extra ticks" via crits going to out pace?  Probably not, just brainstorming.

 

Crit to Demon in Demo makes sense (Despite sac not making sense), Crit to destro .. makes sence....  Crit to Aff?   Unless its a means to gently nudge us towards Supremacy for Affliction....

 

 

I think the argument against this comes in a similar way to the argument against a fire mage.... When you get "dem critz" it's great. But crit is, inherently, a lot of RNG. I think the argument for haste, aside from likely being slightly more damage (judging entirely from past experience), is also more consistent damage. Gearing the RNG out of crit is hard, so I expect to see haste as a safe, consisten form of damage for warlocks. Speaking purely from affliction. I understand almost nothing about demo. lol

[Zagam 1,982]

Haste breakpoints will be important, moreso then than now, because every DoT cast needs to maximize ticks per cast, or DPET, damage per execute time.  Since refreshing for procs goes out the window, you want to minimize your casts while maximizing damage.  This has a breakpoint which happens to coincide with Haste breakpoints.  The extra ticks in the same amount of time are very important.

 

However, there was rumor a while ago about how partial ticks would accumulate at the end and would calculate as such.  Instead of Corruption being reduced from 18 seconds to 17 seconds via Haste, you would get the full 18 second duration every single time.  If you had enough Haste to have 40% of a tick left over after 18 seconds, that damage would be instantly done as a 'remainder' type calculation.  It basically removes haste breakpoints and makes all the damage happen equivalently across the board.  I haven't seen anything confirming that - but if it happens, Haste breakpoints will be insignificant unless you're trying to get a certain number of Nightfall procs per minute. 

[Soulzar 42]

I think the argument against this comes in a similar way to the argument against a fire mage.... When you get "dem critz" it's great. But crit is, inherently, a lot of RNG. I think the argument for haste, aside from likely being slightly more damage (judging entirely from past experience), is also more consistent damage. Gearing the RNG out of crit is hard, so I expect to see haste as a safe, consisten form of damage for warlocks. Speaking purely from affliction. I understand almost nothing about demo. lol

 

Yeah I agree.  That was always the reason crit took a back seat to haste.  We did see this expac though the ability to hit levels where its not so RNG anymore.  With a base line of 40% crit with sac it could get up there. One thing I was not keeping in mind however is that the 35% crit from Sac has to overcome the loss of pet before you worry about comparing it to haste.  Not looking as close with that in mind.

[Liquidsteel 279]

However, there was rumor a while ago about how partial ticks would accumulate at the end and would calculate as such.  Instead of Corruption being reduced from 18 seconds to 17 seconds via Haste, you would get the full 18 second duration every single time.  If you had enough Haste to have 40% of a tick left over after 18 seconds, that damage would be instantly done as a 'remainder' type calculation.  It basically removes haste breakpoints and makes all the damage happen equivalently across the board.  I haven't seen anything confirming that - but if it happens, Haste breakpoints will be insignificant unless you're trying to get a certain number of Nightfall procs per minute. 

Pretty sure is exactly how it's going to work. Dot's always at max duration and partial ticks to occur at end of what would be the base duration.

 

As I understand it, if Corruption has a base duration of 18 seconds (or whatever it is), you'll get partial ticks based on haste every 18 seconds.

[Zagam 1,982]

The way it would work is this...

 

Let's assume each tick of Corruption deals 1,000 damage.

 

No Haste = 8 ticks with 2.000 second interval for 8,000 damage and 0.000 seconds remainder for 0 additional damage.

10% Haste = 8 ticks with 1.800 second interval for 8,000 damage and 1.600 seconds remainder for (1.600/1.800) * 1,000 = 889 additional damage.

 

Residual DoT damage will follow the formula of (time remaining / tick interval) * DoT base damage.  I'll have a massive spreadsheet set up for various Haste values pretty soon for all the DoTs.  This will show how diminishing effects assist with DPS less and less for each additional point of Haste.  Haste always had DR built into it, so our efforts will be to find the maximum amount of Haste to the point its value goes below Mastery or Crit.

[Zagam 1,982]

Actually, I may be mistaken in my initial thoughts.  With Haste, the more Haste you get, the smaller the value in casting reduction you get.  However, the number of ticks you get in a base period of time scales linearly, thus the damage would scale linearly (unless I'm having a major blonde moment). 

 

What I'm doing is doing a quick spreadsheet on Corruption using the following parameters:

 

Base Total Duration = 16.000 sec

Base Tick Interval = 2.000 sec

 

To calculate Interval Reduction, I take the tick interval from H=(x) and subtract it from H=(x-1).  In other words, I subtract the interval from Haste = 2% from Haste = 1%.

 

To calculate Ticks, I divide tick interval by base total duration.  Since there are residual ticks, I'm just running them together with the total tick.  What I see here is a linear value in DoT damage despite a diminishing return with Haste values.  This makes sense because (drrrrr) the smaller a number gets in the demoniator, the larger the effect it has if the demoniator is a value between 0 and 1.  If you were to calculate casting time, such as the cast time of Incinerate, you can see here that you would gain less benefit from Haste, but when it comes to DoT calculations with the new calculating method, Haste has no diminishing returns.

 

Chart for math proof

 

For those trying to follow my post, I do this type of 'thinking-out-loud' posts where you can follow my train of thought.  If it seems like I'm smarter in the last half of my post, it's because I discovered something or re-discovered something I once knew and thought about but forgot.  Here, I BELIEVE I've discovered under the new DoT calculation that Haste will have NO DIMINISHING RETURNS in regards to damage gained per point of Haste.

[Kazistrasz 216]

I've got the same thing showing.

 

Of course, we know haste doesn't always have the same value relative to other stats due to the multiplicative relationships going on.

[JvChequer 43]

There's no point focus on haste if Mastery still scale better in raw-dmg with our dots.

 

Breakpoints are irrelevant and the gain if or without them it's the same since it grows linearly.

 

Crit can be gold and better than haste if they add some mechanic at it or if pets scale better with crit than haste.

Edited April 7, 2014 by JvChequer