Ret - DPS is horrible on H25 Paragons

[chelatek 2]

Hey all,

 

My guild has been doing H25 (trying for our second kill) and I've been in a lot of attempts.  Personally while I might do OK on mechanics my DPS is basically the lowest of the group.

 

Here's my report from one of our recent attempts.  I don't know what I could be doing wrong.

 

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wky111vg120owug0/details/16/

 

Here's my character; I know that it's not optimal gear at all in the slightest but I've had crap luck.

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/mannoroth/Ranijindan/advanced

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.  I really don't think our problem is because of group DPS, but my personal DPS is embarrassing.  

[Oreoxd 165]

Nothing you're doing wrong, your title says it all. Heroic Paragons is an awful fight for ret, with constant target switching and unfavorable mechanics for ret your dps will suffer. Majorly, I'm actually sitting paragons because we're so bad on it.

[Geoda 253]

Personally, I wouldn't use Lights Hammer on this fight. I think the AOE damage on divine storm will be enough. I would use Execution Sentence and try your best to use it after procs or after you pop wings. This fight is definitely not the best for paladins. When you're running around just try to use Judgement and Exorcism on CD since you'll find yourself out of melee reach at times. 

 

Also are you using Sanctified Wrath talent? I just see your Hammer of Wrath really low and could be used more and should be your 2 or 3rd best spell on this fight imo.

[Daltek 4]

Looking at his logs, he's running Sanctified Wrath, and his Hammer of Wrath damage is very low. In order to get the maximum benefit from the Sanctified Wrath talent, you're supposed to use Hammer of Wrath every other global. HoW>CS>HoW>J>How>TV>How>TV>HoW>CS>HoW>J etc. That's probably not an exact rotation but a general idea of how SW benefits the most.

Sadly on paragon's all of your cleave damage is useless. The only time you should be using Divine Storm is when you get a 4 piece proc, or if you're trying to cleave down bloods. Hammer of the Righteous is a direct dps loss unless there's more than 3 targets being hit by it, otherwise Crusader Strike is going to be your go to Holy Power generator.

[Zagam 1,982]

Nothing you're doing wrong, your title says it all. Heroic Paragons is an awful fight for ret, with constant target switching and unfavorable mechanics for ret your dps will suffer. Majorly, I'm actually sitting paragons because we're so bad on it.

What target switching?  You only switch to a new boss when one dies like every other DPS does.  The only mechanic melee have to worry about is Korven's conal attack, Hisek's Rapid Fire, and Xaril's mechanic.  I'd much prefer to be a melee than a range on that fight.  Melee don't have to deal with Ambers, Death From Above, or trying to DPS during Reave.

[Zagam 1,982]

For reference, here's my guild's Retribution Paladin.  He does just fine on the fight.

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jHRaAG2th947nKQF

[chelatek 2]

Looking at his logs, he's running Sanctified Wrath, and his Hammer of Wrath damage is very low. In order to get the maximum benefit from the Sanctified Wrath talent, you're supposed to use Hammer of Wrath every other global. HoW>CS>HoW>J>How>TV>How>TV>HoW>CS>HoW>J etc. That's probably not an exact rotation but a general idea of how SW benefits the most.

Sadly on paragon's all of your cleave damage is useless. The only time you should be using Divine Storm is when you get a 4 piece proc, or if you're trying to cleave down bloods. Hammer of the Righteous is a direct dps loss unless there's more than 3 targets being hit by it, otherwise Crusader Strike is going to be your go to Holy Power generator.

 

I think using HOR at all is part of my problem.  I do use HOW->CS->HOW->TV repeat during AW and it works well, I don't know why it would show so low though.

 

Right now we're working on HGarrosh and I'm in the middle of the pack DPS so that's a bit better.  I know that my gear has definite holes and is nothing like optimal and things get crazy due to mastery stacking once hastecap is hit, but I don't know when we're going to be doing a full clear again since this was the second week we've extended.

[Daltek 4]

Depending on how the fight's setup and whether or not they're actually letting Iron Star's kill adds, it might be beneficial for you to run Divine Purpose since the add phases are such a long part of the fight. It's all up to you though. Padding can either be frowned upon, or it can be helpful sometimes, it's very situational. Sometimes it's just safer to actually have the raid burn the adds down than trying to drop them in the iron star since anything can happen. As long as you're focusing the correct target, being able to proc more 4 piece procs with your Divine Purpose proc's can actually be a pretty strong dps increase. Divine Storm can do some pretty hefty damage even on your main target when that 4 piece procs.

But if the adds are dying stupid fast, and your raid leader's designed for the Iron Star to kill them just stick with Sanctified Wrath and focus the correct targets. Divine Storm when you can, and take advantage of the 4 piece procs as much as possible.

[chelatek 2]

We're actually spliiting DPS, better AOErs (warriors, eles, locks) do adds, everyone else stays on boss.  I stay on Garrosh since ret seems better as steady single target vs quick AOE burst.

The adds aren't even a problem with that strat, it's the interrupts in phase 2 that are totally screwing us due to individual issues that keep arising.  

 

Right now though I'm still trying to figure out why I'm not any use on Paragons 25 :P

 

Depending on how the fight's setup and whether or not they're actually letting Iron Star's kill adds, it might be beneficial for you to run Divine Purpose since the add phases are such a long part of the fight. It's all up to you though. Padding can either be frowned upon, or it can be helpful sometimes, it's very situational. Sometimes it's just safer to actually have the raid burn the adds down than trying to drop them in the iron star since anything can happen. As long as you're focusing the correct target, being able to proc more 4 piece procs with your Divine Purpose proc's can actually be a pretty strong dps increase. Divine Storm can do some pretty hefty damage even on your main target when that 4 piece procs.

But if the adds are dying stupid fast, and your raid leader's designed for the Iron Star to kill them just stick with Sanctified Wrath and focus the correct targets. Divine Storm when you can, and take advantage of the 4 piece procs as much as possible.

[Daltek 4]

Fist of Justice should help with interrupts in Phase 2. 

As far as Paragon's goes, like everyone else has all ready stated it's just an awful fight for Ret. Not 100% sure why your Hammer damage is so low with SW, like we all ready discussed but that's the only glaring issue I saw. HoR is useless in that fight as well, but you acknowledged that.

[chelatek 2]

(Guess I should make this about HGarrosh since it's come up) I'm actually fine with the Phase 2 interrupts, it's when other people screw up that it's a problem :P

 

We spent last night working on Phase 4 and it feels like we're very close to "getting it" so that's good.  Still my DPS sort of sucks!

 

Last night's overall logs for me:

 

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/z3s3ltsj6chlow5w/details/20/

 

My average overall is 350,000 which is roughly my sim DPS but I still feel bad compared to what other single targetters can put out (not even talking about the warriors and warlocks who are on AOE duty).  Our arcane mage who is strictly single target is putting out 410k (our fire mage is putting out even higher but he unavoidably AOEs due to fire's shenanigans).  It just feels like I'm either doing something wrong or Rets really are middling tier DPS which is a depressing thought.  I'd compare HParagon and HGarrosh to other WOL logs but of course WOL rankings are broken for those last 3 so I need to hunt down specific rets.

[Fouton 266]

I'm pretty sure rets are middling the tiers dps, burst being their strong point. I don't have too much knowledge on how they do specifically on H Garrosh though.

[Daltek 4]

According to Simcraft, in full BiS Retribution is near the bottom of the list. In realistic settings, I'd say it depends on your guild and the player. On single target I'm with Fouton, I say Ret's middle of the pack at best. With the correct gear/stat distribution our burst is amazing (not quite as good as hunter's or Enhancement) and then our down periods are awful. We're one of the biggest yo-yo classes in that department currently, but I don't think we're in as bad of a place as people make us out to be. However, Blizzard apparently feels like we're low as well and intend on making some adjustments. They don't want to make any major changes to us (aside from completely removing Inquisition in 6.0) but they want to raise our damage.

[Daltek 4]

For reference, here's my guild's Retribution Paladin.  He does just fine on the fight.

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jHRaAG2th947nKQF

As an aside, I don't feel like linking 10-man logs is comparable to 25man, especially when the person asking is speaking from a 25man perspective. In my personal opinion they're two completely different worlds, and dps numbers are going to be extremely different. Good/Bad is subjective to each raid size.

[chelatek 2]

Here's another way of looking at the logs

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ZpAQHzfgXx4a1B8W#type=damage-done&target=82&boss=1623&wipes=1&source=21

I don't feel like 215k is acceptable and I don't know why it's so low on a fight where all I do is stand and hit a boss.

 

 

Comparing to the log linked above, even if it's 10 man, to find out if I'm using a right rotation.  Their Crusader Strike is a much smaller source of damage than Judgement which is confusing me.  I need to hunt down some 25H logs.

Edited April 17, 2014 by chelatek

[Fouton 266]

I think the reason for your CS vs Judgment is because during your GoAK you don't use Judgment (which the other paladins I looked at also don't) but since your fight lengths are very short, it'll make a bigger gap between the damages of CS and Judgment. I don't believe this is the source of your damage issues.

 

Your breakdown appears to be very similar to the ranked 70 something paladin I'm currently looking at, who ended the fight with 360k dps.

 

You also seem to be 1% under your expertise cap, I'm not sure if that's from a recent change in your stats.

 

You're short 60k dps in comparison to the 579 ret paladin I'm looking at, so it could be your 8 ilvls, (maybe the expertise problem, though I don't know if you actually raided under cap)

 

Note: The ret paladin had the same DPS(a) as you did. This means your active time is what's causing your damage to be lower, most likely due to deaths during wipes. I think you might be a bit hard on yourself. (You also peak about 300k more than the 579 ret, so your opener is definitely doing you some good)

 

Here's the ret I was comparing you with: http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Cq2HLpVYrbWmZzPx#fight=16&type=damage-done

I also chose a lower ended rank paladin, because usually the top 10 have perfect RNG, padding, and many more kills = experience than the rest, so it would be a bit more fair to compare with this ret instead.

[chelatek 2]

Whoops I forgot to redo my expertise after getting a polearm 

 

I've noticed that when Desecreate hits (since we sit in it) my framerate drops to single digits and I can't figure out why.  i5 3.1 ghz, 16 gigs ram, R9 270x.  I think an addon is playing havoc so I'm disabling EVERYTHING but DBM and WeakAuras.

[Fouton 266]

If it's not an addon, it could be graphics drivers that aren't up to date, I know recently something changed to make my out of date drivers make WoW lag like hell (it had worked fine for 6 months previously, which is why I kept them because they weren't causing blue-screens when the new drivers were)

 

It's likely an addon, but make sure the drivers are up to date aswell.

[chelatek 2]

This is a brand new install of 7 with the newest drivers so I don't think it was that. 

I cranked down the particle effects as low as they can go while upping the rest of the graphics and I was getting at works 20FPS during Desecrate which is a huge improvement.

 

Also I've gone and looked at a number of top 50 logs in Warcraft Logs and I'm right about where I'm supposed to be in terms of DPS(a), so I actually feel a lot better about my numbers now.  I just look terrible compared to everyone else because they get to AOE/have a much higher time in Time Warp mode which feels like it benefits others way more than Rets.

[Fouton 266]

Yeah, your guild members seem to be putting out some excellent numbers in comparison to the other ranked ret players' guilds. I think it'll even out a bit more by the end of the fight and you'll find yourself in the bottom, but not far enough.

[sexybeast 3]

Paragons damage makes me lol... we had a lock in the guild who was topping meters, then once we used warcraft logs filer process which allows you to basically say "delete any damage on rikal before skeer is dead" and carry this on all fight for your kill order (basically giving you any one players effective damage to the raid) he was bottom...

THis tool is great for finding out whos cleaving way way way to much amd whos cleaving for procs.

Get on warcraft logs (assuming someone logs there in your guild) apply the filters and lol.

I bet your damage wont seem that bad after looking into it!

[Daltek 4]

Some classes actually benefit single target from "cleave" or multi-dotting. Very few do as much as they used to, but some do. If they're doing it properly that is. Ret paladin's pretty much have unavoidable cleave right now with our 4 piece. With divine purpose we get some pretty ridiculous 4 piece proc chains. Hell I've gotten 4 or 5 4 piece proc's in a row before with SW. Some people suggest ignoring the 4 piece proc for Templar's Verdict, but I don't. Divine Storm with the proc hit's like a truck, it's completely free and it procs our mastery exactly as TV does.

But I agree, some people pad just to make themselves look good. I'm guilty of it on some fights, but it's not during progression, or during some mechanic that can wipe us. Mechanics>Padding. But if you can pad and do everything properly, good for you.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Daltek

[Dagator 0]

I was wondering if someone could look at my pally  Dagator-Dragonblight and tell me if I am doing something wrong with gear, I can barely 160k dps, really depressing.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Dagator

[Hybrys 199]

I was wondering if someone could look at my pally  Dagator-Dragonblight and tell me if I am doing something wrong with gear, I can barely 160k dps, really depressing.

You should definitely think about starting a new thread about your damage, and including a link to your armory and a link to any logs you may have.