[Archived] Frost Mage 5.4

[Guest Terrodarin]

Are there any plans for updating the BiS List?

...Im playing a frostmage and at the moment i have really no idea what trinkets i should use-.-

Is the darkmooncardtrinket better than shadopan assault ?

[Oltier 471]

Are there any plans for updating the BiS List?

...Im playing a frostmage and at the moment i have really no idea what trinkets i should use-.-

Is the darkmooncardtrinket better than shadopan assault ?

I am pretty sure they are planning on updating the list, but it might take some time, to update it for every single class and spec. Until that, you can refer to http://www.askmrrobot.com/. They can give you pretty personalized help on what you should wear, reforge, socket etc.

[Vladamyr 169]

It is being updated. For trinket comparisons, you'll need to go to a site such as Askmrrobot.com or run Simcraft on your character. As to the two trinkets you mentioned - Volatile Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault is better than Relic of Yu'lon

[Guest Jena]

You really don't need to use Clique or this GridClickSets as a Mage. I simply use a mouseover macro for my decursing. As far as I know that's exactly what those addons do anyway and it seems a waste to DL a whole addon just for ONE spell. The macro that I find work is "/cast [target=mouseover] Remove Curse". I throw the macro on my bars and make a keybind to one of my thumb buttons. Then I pretend all day long that I am using GridClickSets/Clique. Suppose if you need some sort of audio notification that someone has a curse, I remember a lovely addon called Decursive (dunno if that is still up and running). But that always worked on all toons able to remove anything.

[Tarazet 144]

I think the stat priority is pretty clear-cut, in comparison to other classes I've played. Spell haste never stops being good at any point, no matter what the choices of talents, and reaching spell hit cap is mandatory. Mastery is really bad in comparison to Haste and Crit.

I was curious and took one of the better Frost Mages on our server, 512 ilv, and played with reforging his gear on Ask Mr Robot. As he had it (perfectly reforged and enchanted in every slot, according to Icyveins' priority) his buffed Mastery was around 38% and Critical chance around 20%. Without changing the amount of Haste on his gear, I put an extra 1350 points into Mastery instead of Crit, and did a spreadsheet to figure out what I expected it would do to Ice Lance hits affected by the Shatter effect from FoF procs. The result was that the average damage from a hit would be 110K instead of 111K with the high-Crit build, so it was essentially a wash. But Mastery only buffs that one source of damage and does nothing for anything else (except the Water Elemental, which does quite a small percentage of a Mage's damage). So it will hurt overall DPS, regardless of any talent or glyph choices, on raid boss encounters to put any points in Mastery that could be in Hit, Haste, or Crit.

It's bad enough that I actually wonder about the choice of Panderen's Step as a foot enchant. Run speed is nice, it's true, but what about Greater Haste? http://www.wowdb.com...s-greater-haste

Edited April 11, 2013 by Tarazet

[Scook999 8]

Interesting post, Tarazet,and I agree with haste with you. On the subject of the foot enchant, I believe the extra run speed is still more vaulable that 175 haste rating. I imagine there are some very exact breaks you might get an extra tick of damage from something, and if you were withing 175 haste, that would work, but outside of that the 8% run speed is more valuable.

My contention, however, it Flameglow is practically useless in it's current form. The 30% decrease in damage is nice, but I find it's the spike damage to be the culprit of most deaths, and the cap is too low to be useful at this time. Perhaps if there was a cooldown on it, say, for (10-20) seconds it would stop 30% of all damage without a cap (1-2 minute cooldown), it would be highly useful. the guide is correct in offering Ice Barrier as a strong alternative, but I feel Flameglow's value is overstated.

Thoughts? Opinions? Whatever? I don't mind being told I am wrong. I would just like to hear from other opinions in game situations of their experiences? Thanks!

[Guest Guest]

Your greatness Damien, thank you very much for bringing Blatty in (proud to say i was already using Blazing Speed and Invisibilty).

However, i would love to hear your comment on 2 things, please:

1. why is it beneficial to pop mirror images before the fight and not include them in CD macro with icy veins and alter time?

2. i am a little bit hesitant about insta-regemming for haste, as SimC shows it only makes sense (and while it does, it's a minor improvement over int+haste, with haste being at about 0.53 normalized scale factor) during light movement fights, and it's a quite counter-productive during heavy movement fights.

if i am not mistaken, "light movement" is about 5% of the fight time, and heavy is about 20%.

Well, tortos be example, or ji-kun — it's pretty unlikely to stand in the same place 19 seconds out of 20.

On the other hand, i'm ready to pretty much do anything what Blatty says, just would like to see some logic behind this.

Thanks a lot,

fellow (but very nooby) mage

[Oltier 471]

Your greatness Damien, thank you very much for bringing Blatty in (proud to say i was already using Blazing Speed and Invisibilty).

However, i would love to hear your comment on 2 things, please:

1. why is it beneficial to pop mirror images before the fight and not include them in CD macro with icy veins and alter time?

2. i am a little bit hesitant about insta-regemming for haste, as SimC shows it only makes sense (and while it does, it's a minor improvement over int+haste, with haste being at about 0.53 normalized scale factor) during light movement fights, and it's a quite counter-productive during heavy movement fights.

if i am not mistaken, "light movement" is about 5% of the fight time, and heavy is about 20%.

Well, tortos be example, or ji-kun — it's pretty unlikely to stand in the same place 19 seconds out of 20.

On the other hand, i'm ready to pretty much do anything what Blatty says, just would like to see some logic behind this.

Thanks a lot,

fellow (but very nooby) mage

I am not Lord Damien, but I think I can give you an answer for one of your questions. I hope it will satisfy you just as well.

Using mirror image before the pull has the only benefit of, not wasting a GCD for casting it during the fight and instead, you can cast ie. a frostbolt. And frankly, Macroing Icy Veins and Alter time (if you want to play very perfectly) might not worth it, because sometimes you should delay popping alter time if one of your trinkets could pop in like 5 seconds.

You might not be that interrested, but I will share my opening rotation to give you an idea of what I am trying to say.

• Pre-pot
• Cast Mirror Image
• Pre-cast Frostbolt (when it lands, the fight has started)
• Pop Icy Veins
• Apply Nether tempest (or whatever, and keeping a track of trinket procs, in case both of them+Lightweave+Jade spirit pops-->Alter time. Sometimes one of the damned trinket doesn't want to proc before the other buffs run out.. Then just screw it :D)
• Frozen orb
• Frostbolt debuff to 3.
• Using Ice lance, Frostfire bolt when it yould go to waste.
• Normal rotation

At last but not least, don't be so critic to yourself. If you are reading this site you will leave the "noobzone" in no time!

[Damien 1,514]

Your greatness Damien, thank you very much for bringing Blatty in (proud to say i was already using Blazing Speed and Invisibilty).

However, i would love to hear your comment on 2 things, please:

1. why is it beneficial to pop mirror images before the fight and not include them in CD macro with icy veins and alter time?

2. i am a little bit hesitant about insta-regemming for haste, as SimC shows it only makes sense (and while it does, it's a minor improvement over int+haste, with haste being at about 0.53 normalized scale factor) during light movement fights, and it's a quite counter-productive during heavy movement fights.

if i am not mistaken, "light movement" is about 5% of the fight time, and heavy is about 20%.

Well, tortos be example, or ji-kun — it's pretty unlikely to stand in the same place 19 seconds out of 20.

On the other hand, i'm ready to pretty much do anything what Blatty says, just would like to see some logic behind this.

Thanks a lot,

fellow (but very nooby) mage

Oltier replied to your question on Mirror Image (tl;dr losing 2 seconds of Mirror Image damage is better than spending a GCD after the pull to cast it), so I will tackle your second question.

You should not really use SimC for anything with movement. The problem is that the rotations are not written with that in mind (you are free to try and improve them though :P). So when you add a movement raid event into simc, chances are your character is not going to do what you would have it do in-game. This is why it always makes me smile when people come up with "Realistic" simulations with SimC. It just makes very little sense.

Any good Frost Mage would save up charges of Fingers of Frost and a proc of Brain Freeze for moving, but this is very hard to specify in a SimC rotation. If you are going to move for like 10 seconds, then you need to save up Frozen Orb, and that is also very difficult to write in a SimC rotation. The bottom line is that when using movement with SimC, the tool is no longer accurate (at least for casters, although I think that for melee classes, movement = stop attacking), and this is why (at least in my opinion) you should always use it to test how things go in stationary fight and then make reasonable assumptions regarding what happens when your add movement.

I think that it is safe to say that in an encounter with a bit of movement (up to 10 seconds of non-stop movement every minute), things do not change much for Frost Mages. In encounters with more movement, your stat weights may change significantly, but in this case, it may be a good idea to switch to Fire or to try and minimize movement as much as possible.

[Morinehtar 0]

Hi,

Thanks for this great guide!

I have questions regarding gemming.

Blatty and your partner site AskMrRobot (AMR) suggest different gemming for each color socket.

Red and Prismatic socket:

Blatty advises Wicked Vermilion Onyx if having trouble reaching Hit Cap, then Reckless Vermilion Onyx.

AMR advises Brilliant Primordial Ruby.

Blue socket:

Blatty advises Rigid River's Heart if having trouble reaching Hit Cap, then Lightning Wild Jade.

AMR advises Veiled Imperial Amethyst.

Yellow socket:

Blatty advises Quick Sun's Radiance.

AMR advises Reckless Vermilion Onyx.

What gemming is right or wrong here?

Looking forward to your reply.

[Vladamyr 169]

For a Normal and Heroic gear BiS profile 1 Intellect is > 2 Haste according to Simcraft. So use the AMR advised gemming.

[Tarazet 144]

For a Normal and Heroic gear BiS profile 1 Intellect is > 2 Haste according to Simcraft. So use the AMR advised gemming.

Most classes will favor gems that have the class' main stat on them, whether it be Int, Agi, Str or Stam. My main (Guardian Druid) is one of the exceptions - she has 7 yellow Crit gems - but I'm not aware of any exceptions for DPS classes.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Tarazet

[Oltier 471]

I Simcrafted the gems on my own character on a Patchwerk fight. The results are the following:

Int gems: 143340 dps

Haste gems: 143183 dps

My profile: http://eu.battle.net...Oltier/advanced (some talents are swapped out because I've been soloing but I changed those in the simulation ofc)

So basically none of AskMrRobot or Blatty are wrong in case of a patchwerk fight. However, I cannot tell much about encounters with movement.

I did Simcraft for heavy movement fight as well. I know that simcraft is not really for simulating movement, but it can give a small look.

Int gems : 118487 dps

Haste gems : 119013 dps

Edited April 18, 2013 by Oltier

[Damien 1,514]

The difference seems so small, that it is probably not worth a debate. Depending on your gear level, the value of Haste fluctuates around half that of Intellect, so it's hard to give advice that will work everywhere here ;)

That said, I'm working on a tool that will help us see things more clearly, if you guys can wait a few more days ;)

[Morinehtar 0]

Thanks for your comments Vladamir, Tarazet and Oltier.

The difference seems so small, that it is probably not worth a debate. Depending on your gear level, the value of Haste fluctuates around half that of Intellect, so it's hard to give advice that will work everywhere here

That said, I'm working on a tool that will help us see things more clearly, if you guys can wait a few more days

Good to read that.

I can't wait till it will be available

[Tarazet 144]

I Simcrafted the gems on my own character on a Patchwerk fight. The results are the following:

Int gems: 143340 dps

Haste gems: 143183 dps

My profile: http://eu.battle.net...Oltier/advanced (some talents are swapped out because I've been soloing but I changed those in the simulation ofc)

So basically none of AskMrRobot or Blatty are wrong in case of a patchwerk fight. However, I cannot tell much about encounters with movement.

I did Simcraft for heavy movement fight as well. I know that simcraft is not really for simulating movement, but it can give a small look.

Int gems : 118487 dps

Haste gems : 119013 dps

It also depends on your choice of talents and a number of other factors. Just as one example, Frost Bomb has a cast time; Living Bomb doesn't. How will something like that change your stat priority? Having the potential to do more DPS is one thing; knowing how to use a particular stat makeup to your best advantage is another entirely.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Tarazet

[Oltier 471]

It also depends on your choice of talents and a number of other factors. Just as one example, Frost Bomb has a cast time; Living Bomb doesn't. How will something like that change your stat priority? Having the potential to do more DPS is one thing; knowing how to use a particular stat makeup to your best advantage is another entirely.

Simcraft with frost bomb patchwerk:

Int gems: 143349

Haste gems: 142814

There is really not much difference again.

Well, my personal opinion is that I'd choose the haste gems, firstly, because almost every single encounters in ToT a little bit of requires movement and I can cast more frostbolts, before I will have to move once again.

Secondly, by haste gems you might gain an additional tick on Nether tempest which is pretty much beneficial on council of elders and any multi dot fights.

And, on the other hand, the single target DPS with int and haste gems has not too big difference at all in between them.

But these are only my personal opinions :)

[Oltier 471]

On multiple target rotation you mention using cone of cold on CD. However, is it really worth using it without the glyph of cone of cold??

[Damien 1,514]

On multiple target rotation you mention using cone of cold on CD. However, is it really worth using it without the glyph of cone of cold??

No, it isn't. I added "glyphed" in front of Cone of Cold, to make it more obvious.

[solacespecs 14]

Why does the guide, under the Gemming section, advocate using a Wicked Vermilion Onyx for "Trouble hitting the hit cap?"

I'm trying to gem but I feel like I'm doing an awful job at it, and now I'm slightly more confused based on the guide.

[Oltier 471]

I cannot understand the confusion clearly.

The thing is, if, after reforges and normal gemming you couldn't reach the hit cap, then you should use Wicked Vermilion Onyx/Perfect Wicked Tiger Opal instead of → Reckless Vermilion Onyx/Perfect Reckless Tiger Opal so that, you will be able to reach the cap.

But under normal circumstances with raiding gear, you should not have any problems with reaching the hit cap, so you should just use Reckless Vermilion Onyx in your red sockets.

The same applies to the blue sockets.

[solacespecs 14]

So expertise applies towards the hit cap for a mage? I was thinking that expertise was only for melee characters. This is my first caster, as I've always played a warrior (since vanilla) before now.

Please correct my thinking here because this is the source of my confusion.

Edited May 4, 2013 by solacespecs

[Oltier 471]

Oh, yes exactly. Since MoP, Expertise=Hit rating for casters :)

[solacespecs 14]

Oh, yes exactly. Since MoP, Expertise=Hit rating for casters

Ahhhh, ha ha. Ok. NOW it makes sense. I was like, dude, seriously, why is it suggesting Expertise? As I said, first caster character :).

Thanks for the clarity!

[Crocky 0]

I find this macro for frostbolt very useful. It makes it so i never cast it on my elemental, and every time i cast i get the targeting reticle for my elementals freeze spell.

#showtooltip frostbolt

/cast [harm,nodead] Frostbolt

/cast freeze