[Archived] Protection Warrior 5.4

[Guest lordofpete]

Demoralizing Shout isn't mentioned in debuffs

why is that so? even if it doesn't stack with thunderclaps debuff it still would be 10% higher than the usual damage reduction

[Kaluun 1]

I've been pointed to the following excellent post by Theck:

http://sacredduty.ne...ation-followup/

which explains that Mastery should still be the most important stat for protection warriors. Essentially it seems the idea is that one should be able to have maximum uptime on shield block even with 0% hit and expertise, and that critical blocking generates rage, so itself contributes to active mitigation.

However, I am not sure whether or not there were any changes at level 90 when MoP went live. Also, Theck's simulation doesn't allow for unavoidable hits (in which case Mastery/Dodge/Parry would be pretty useless I suppose). And in the case where one uses only shield barrier (e.g. because of the way the damage scales), Dodge/Parry become more important. So it's a bit confusing!

I'm hoping to get a better feel for how things are going when we have a serious go a Mogu'Shan Vaults tonight. I've gone for the soft-cap on hit and expertise, and mastery after that. If it does turn out that I end up generating more rage than needed to keep shield block up, I'll get rid of some of the hit and exp.

But it's still a bit confusing, as it almost seems like the optimal reforging/gemming strategy could change quite a bit from boss to boss. But perhaps the margins aren't so big. My feeling is that, at least for now, the potential for unavoidable damage makes a case for having some points in hit and expertise - and you can always spend the extra rage on a shield barrier in between SBs, in order to reduce spikiness further.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Kaluun

[Guest Noxaeternus]

Why under the stat priority section do you put Hit/Exp behind everything else....... Right now as it stands it's no longer just for aggro as it's essential for our rage generation which now directly affects our dmg mitigation through either shield block or barrier.... priority should be Stam>Hit(7.5)= Exp(7.5)>mastery >Parry>dodge..... I might even put the hit/exp caps above Stam....... I might be right out to lunch here, and if I am I need to understand why.

ty

Yes I am wondering this too. Any explanations please ? Thank you.

[Vlad 411]

Yes I am wondering this too. Any explanations please ? Thank you.

This should no longer be the case, our stats page was updated a few days ago to reflect things much better now. If you've read it and still have questions, fire away.

[Guest Red]

Hello,

I was wondering if there was a "cap" on mastery. As I have geared up, Ask Mr. Robot has now switched from having me get more mastery to now start gemming and enchanting for stamina. I am a little confused on this, because as I read the stats priority page here on icy veins it states that you should get enough stamina from your gear. I have not changed any of the stat weights on AMR and I am using the PVE: Default Build. I am Red from Dalaran US. Thank you for any help!

[Scrounger 3]

Vlad, just realised in the BiS list you dont mention the 1H from Elegon. Its probably not the weapon of choice (Hit/Exp), but its not bad either.

[Vlad 411]

Hello,

I was wondering if there was a "cap" on mastery. As I have geared up, Ask Mr. Robot has now switched from having me get more mastery to now start gemming and enchanting for stamina. I am a little confused on this, because as I read the stats priority page here on icy veins it states that you should get enough stamina from your gear. I have not changed any of the stat weights on AMR and I am using the PVE: Default Build. I am Red from Dalaran US. Thank you for any help!

Thank you for the question.

There is no Mastery cap to worry about at this stage (and probably won't be for a few tiers of content, or all of Mists of Pandaria). It might be time to review our statement about how much Stamina you need. Even so, I think the gemming we suggest for Protection Warriors is pretty spot on for what you should be doing (and Mr. Robot seems to be suggesting the same).

Vlad, just realised in the BiS list you dont mention the 1H from Elegon. Its probably not the weapon of choice (Hit/Exp), but its not bad either.

Thanks! We're handling it.

[Guest Tigorius]

I just want to thank icy-veins.com and the writer(s) with an excellent guide! Thnx so much.

[Vlad 411]

I just want to thank icy-veins.com and the writer(s) with an excellent guide! Thnx so much.

Thank you! Glad you like it!

[Guest Ben]

You should add elegion, the fanged crescent to the main hand page... a drop off elegon. it has hit and expertise

[Guest Guest-Dutchegg]

I have a question regarding the gemming, on the statistics page you mention you should not gem for stam cause most of it will come from your gear, yet @ the gems page you recommend gemming stam in blue, wouldnt a mastery+stam be better?

[Guest Executem]

I have a question regarding the gemming, on the statistics page you mention you should not gem for stam cause most of it will come from your gear, yet @ the gems page you recommend gemming stam in blue, wouldnt a mastery+stam be better?

I agree with what you are suggesting...combination gems to reach your goal of more mastery or hit/exp is good...you can still use a few straight blues if you wish...but a good number of 160 secondary stat + 120 stam are great.

[Vlad 411]

You should add elegion, the fanged crescent to the main hand page... a drop off elegon. it has hit and expertise

This should now be added. Thank you :)

I have a question regarding the gemming, on the statistics page you mention you should not gem for stam cause most of it will come from your gear, yet @ the gems page you recommend gemming stam in blue, wouldnt a mastery+stam be better?

The inconsistency is due to the text on the Stats page not being what it should be. We do fully intend to recommend gemming Stamina in Blue, as we do on the Gems page - we're editing the text on the Stats page right now to match. Thank you!

I agree with what you are suggesting...combination gems to reach your goal of more mastery or hit/exp is good...you can still use a few straight blues if you wish...but a good number of 160 secondary stat + 120 stam are great.

Right now, we're advising straight Stamina in blues, but if you do get hybrid gems, you should still be more than fine :)

[Guest methusalar]

Great guide (as usual!) - thanks!

I know that Talents are fairly flexible nowadays, but I don't really see that there is much debate at Tier 1 and 2.

Tier 1 - if you do the maths of how many charges you have available at any particular time, double time seems to be a clear winner. For Juggernaut to come out on top, you need to require charges every 12-14 seconds (exactly) for 45 seconds or more. If the need arises in less than 12 seconds, you're better off with double time and if the gap is longer, the 'chain' of charges required to put Juggernaut on top gets longer. Additionally, any time there is a gap of 40 seconds between charges, the clock is effectively re-set and double time starts again in a commanding position!

Tier 2 - the total heal from either impending victory or enraged regeneration is the same (20% per min). The difference is that IV takes 2 GCDs; IV needs 20 rage (total) (if macro'd to enrage, ER uses no rage); and IV is less of an 'oh shit' button (which is what any tank healing needs to be - as there's a healer to do anything less).

[Clisis 5]

One stat to rule them all.... Mastery...... (btw I find myself changing talents most if not very fight to fit it well xD)

[Clisis 5]

I finding also the BiS are all over the place and wrong (no offense) But the BiS chest should be the teir chest (not black smithing) plus the tier 14 should go as follow Chest, Hands, Head, Shoulders then for your OS (off set) should be your DPS legs aka fury or arms spec legs. Now Clisis why would you do that the legs got mastery and dodge thats great! WRONG! *batman slap* Dodge is one of the lowest stats needed for a warrior (parry being 2.5 times over it) PLUS the DPS legs have higher mastery on them with exp to help aggro because I find myself having a hard time keeping aggro off well geared pally's, DK, monks, druids. you name it! Hit and Exp soft caps of 7.5% (2550 rating) are also essental for tanking in 5.1 atm. So the BiS are defentally needed to be looked at again. Also my last question is why the shado-pan tricket? would both mastery trickets off elegon and terrace be better with passive mastery instead of a 1min CD? or is it because we as warriors need it just for the stam? thank you!

[Vlad 411]

Great guide (as usual!) - thanks!

I know that Talents are fairly flexible nowadays, but I don't really see that there is much debate at Tier 1 and 2.

Tier 1 - if you do the maths of how many charges you have available at any particular time, double time seems to be a clear winner. For Juggernaut to come out on top, you need to require charges every 12-14 seconds (exactly) for 45 seconds or more. If the need arises in less than 12 seconds, you're better off with double time and if the gap is longer, the 'chain' of charges required to put Juggernaut on top gets longer. Additionally, any time there is a gap of 40 seconds between charges, the clock is effectively re-set and double time starts again in a commanding position!

Tier 2 - the total heal from either impending victory or enraged regeneration is the same (20% per min). The difference is that IV takes 2 GCDs; IV needs 20 rage (total) (if macro'd to enrage, ER uses no rage); and IV is less of an 'oh shit' button (which is what any tank healing needs to be - as there's a healer to do anything less).

I completely agree with you on the first point. I'll edit the guide to reflect this.

On the second point, I still feel like in a fight where a bad situation could come up at any time, I'd rather have IV there and not ER, because there's a higher likelihood that ER will be on cooldown, and also that its HoT portion won't matter at all. I'd argue that the HoT is just meter-padding in most cases, since what you need is the instant health. If you're still needing self-healing 5 seconds after your critical moment, there's something very bad happening with your healers. So in this sense, with IV you get 10% more health per minute (instantly when needed), at the cost of one global cooldown and 20 rage.

I'll see if I can update the wording a bit though, anyway :)

Thank you.

One stat to rule them all.... Mastery...... (btw I find myself changing talents most if not very fight to fit it well xD)

The BiS list is basically out of date and we haven't had time to revise it in... a while. Updating the BiS for all classes is our top priority right now, so I hope to have a lot of work done there by this time next week (all specs, quite possibly). Thank you :)

[Clisis 5]

Awesome ^ That will be great to see! I really want to see the tricket's and other items such as belts and boots

[Decision 7]

I gotta say I'm pretty dissapointed in how wrong you are on most parts on this guide. I usually love your guides but this time around it feels like your recommendations are wrong, or just written wrong.

First of all we have the reforging were you havent put in the pure hit/exp method that they use on askmrrobot. Not to bothered by this though.

But when I go to the gems/enchants section I get totally mindfucked when you first of all say that stamina should be used in all blue/prismatic sockets but then you recommend the Eternal meta with dodge? If you listed it as best due to the 1% block then I can refer to Theck that the 2% armor is more mitigation aswell as it gives you more stamina, your no 1 stat. Would also like to remind you there is a 160hit+120stam green gem that you can put in the yellow gem slots for the hit/exp build.

And when you go down to the enchants you dont mention the 150 stam leather kit wich by your stat prio, should be better than 170 mastery on gloves. Would also be smart to mention the dancing steel enchant because most tanks end up using that one due to dodge(river's song) being inferior and the 8k absorb from colossus just isnt that much.

Also your BiS list, you got the dps dk shoulders wich ofc is a misslink but I just wanted to point it out.

And both the trinkets listed are mastery instead of stamina wich your stat prio indicates should be better.

Also got a suggestion for macros you could put out.

#showtooltip charge

/cast [help] intervene(or safeguard)

/cast [harm] charge

/cast heroic leap

This intervenes if your target if friendly and charge if it's hostile aswell and use heroic leap right after, could also write in heroic throw or a shout for a nice pull.

EDIT: I'm not to sure if you want this on your guide but it might aswell be smart to mention the difference between 10m and 25m due to the higher health needed in 25m.

Now when I've said these things I apologize if I offended anyone or sounded rude, no intend for that. As I said I love your guides but I think this one needs improvement.

//Decísìon

Edited February 5, 2013 by Decision

[Guest Methusalar]

More on the tier 2 talents...

Everyone writes Second Wind off (including myself), but on consideration, I'm not so sure.

I haven't tested it, but I'm assuming that the first tick is instant (ie at 0.01 seconds after you go below 35%). Someone correct me if this isn't true - and this would change the argument semi-significantly.

If that is the case, then you have regenerated 9% within 2 seconds of dipping beneath 35% (equivalent to an Impending Victory). Within 5 seconds, you will have regenerated 18% - equivalent to enraged regeneration which also takes 5 seconds.

All this and no GCD, no rage cost, no thinking/key-pressing etc. Definitely starts to sound more interesting to me. The two key questions are:

-How would you use IV / ER? The likely answer (in a raid environment) is in exactly the same way as SW - ie as an emergency heal to give the healer a chance to catch up. If that is the case, you are likely to use it at 30-35% health and very rarely above this.

- The second question is: given the above, do you need that initial 10% quicker than 2 seconds? Maybe. But bear in mind you would have a reaction time delay with IV/ER, so 2 seconds is more likely 1.5 seconds or less and the difference starts to look pretty slim.

Overall, I'm coming down in favour of SW now. It's less flexible, but this is really only a problem in solo play, not in instances, but far lower maintenance.

[Vlad 411]

More on the tier 2 talents...

Everyone writes Second Wind off (including myself), but on consideration, I'm not so sure.

I haven't tested it, but I'm assuming that the first tick is instant (ie at 0.01 seconds after you go below 35%). Someone correct me if this isn't true - and this would change the argument semi-significantly.

If that is the case, then you have regenerated 9% within 2 seconds of dipping beneath 35% (equivalent to an Impending Victory). Within 5 seconds, you will have regenerated 18% - equivalent to enraged regeneration which also takes 5 seconds.

All this and no GCD, no rage cost, no thinking/key-pressing etc. Definitely starts to sound more interesting to me. The two key questions are:

-How would you use IV / ER? The likely answer (in a raid environment) is in exactly the same way as SW - ie as an emergency heal to give the healer a chance to catch up. If that is the case, you are likely to use it at 30-35% health and very rarely above this.

- The second question is: given the above, do you need that initial 10% quicker than 2 seconds? Maybe. But bear in mind you would have a reaction time delay with IV/ER, so 2 seconds is more likely 1.5 seconds or less and the difference starts to look pretty slim.

Overall, I'm coming down in favour of SW now. It's less flexible, but this is really only a problem in solo play, not in instances, but far lower maintenance.

Hi there. I'm sorry that I didn't get to reply to you before. I meant to several times, but always got busy with one thing or another (hardly an excuse, but oh well).

I have my doubts that the first tick is instant, but I will check this as soon as I can. Even if it is, though, the argument changes little.

My feeling is still that Second Wind is not quite that good. One of the changes coming with Patch 5.2 is that Impending Victory's heal is now 15%, and also that Enraged Regeneration now only costs 30 rage. I don't think any tank in the usual setting will spend 5 seconds under 35% health. When tanks do drop there, it's usually because at least one of the healers is in the process of channeling a long heal, and after that the tanks quickly get topped off.

The main deciding factor, in my opinion, is the fact that Second Wind's usage is limited from the get-go. It will ONLY work when sub 35%. Yes, you could say that those are the times that you "need it most", but I think that decision is best left it the hands of the tank, and, anyway, if you're only there for brief amounts of time throughout the fight, you will have contributed very little to your own survival. Speaking for myself, depending on the circumstances, I often won't wait for 35% health to use Impending Victory. If I'm at 50% and I know another boss swing or other damaging cast is coming, I'd use it right away.

All this is not to say that it's not a good talent. It's quite solid, and the difference in practice is likely to be quite small. I just think for myself that the other two options are better, but it's pretty much up to preference.

[Guest BlindTank]

Mastery is king if the only thing you ever have to block is frontal melee damage. If, however, you live in the real Wow world, stopping A O E, spell and ranged damage is also required. Has anyone considered setting up to maximize shield barrier? It stops everything except falling damage. Try capping Hit, then stacking Strength and Haste. Using this build, not only am I easy on the healers, but I have also simultaniously topped the damage done, Healing done and Threat generation in 25 man LFR. I NEVER enchant or gem for additional Stamina. All This does is make my healer work harder because every pip of additional Stamina is one less pip of mitigation. My gear still provides sufficient Mastery for those very rare, purely frontal melee fights.

[Guest bryjeored]

Mastery is king if the only thing you ever have to block is frontal melee damage. If, however, you live in the real Wow world, stopping A O E, spell and ranged damage is also required. Has anyone considered setting up to maximize shield barrier? It stops everything except falling damage. Try capping Hit, then stacking Strength and Haste. Using this build, not only am I easy on the healers, but I have also simultaniously topped the damage done, Healing done and Threat generation in 25 man LFR. I NEVER enchant or gem for additional Stamina. All This does is make my healer work harder because every pip of additional Stamina is one less pip of mitigation. My gear still provides sufficient Mastery for those very rare, purely frontal melee fights.

Mastery is king if the only thing you ever have to block is frontal melee damage. If, however, you live in the real Wow world, stopping A O E, spell and ranged damage is also required. Has anyone considered setting up to maximize shield barrier? It stops everything except falling damage. Try capping Hit, then stacking Strength and Haste. Using this build, not only am I easy on the healers, but I have also simultaniously topped the damage done, Healing done and Threat generation in 25 man LFR. I NEVER enchant or gem for additional Stamina. All This does is make my healer work harder because every pip of additional Stamina is one less pip of mitigation. My gear still provides sufficient Mastery for those very rare, purely frontal melee fights.

Really bad advice to not stack stamina. Also, it has not been proven that the all around best build is hit>Exp>Mastery, Stamina is still number one priority over all of those. NOTHING, is more helpful and not only covering a mistake that you make, but also making the damage you receive less spiky. The "Mana Sponge" does not exist anymore. Mastery is our best Passive mitigation stat, but we all know mists is about active mitigation, therefore hit/exp is slight ahead for constant rage regeneration. Suggesting haste to any protection warrior is the worst advice I've ever heard of. It is good for paladins, but even now in 5.2 hit/exp/Mastery is superior to that build for paladins (If dps is not an issue). Haste should not be on your gear as a protection warrior, you should not have one single point in haste, it is probably the worst stat that we have. As you said yourself, solely relying on mitigation won't help you at all against damage that is non-physical, which happen to make up a good portion of the fights.

There's that, please don't heed the advice of this guy, he means well, but obviously has done zero concrete research on the topic and bringing up LFR as an example just shows how bad it is.

[Guest Darius]

Pretty nice guide.

One thing I noticed on the Glyph page is you haven't updated the 5.2 change to Glyph of Incite.

It's pretty sweet now (Three free heroic strikes or cleave whenever you use Demoralizing Shout vs 10sec buff where Devastate gives you cheaper heroic strikes)Glyph of Incite

[Guest Aliok]

As a rule, you should shy away from gathering professions (with the exception of Herbalism), which leaves the following viable professions for raiding:

Shouldn't that be Mining, as is shown in the chart that follows?