[Archived] Holy Paladin 5.4

[Guest Anahitaxz]

First of all, our BiS lists only include items currently obtainable in the game. Therefore, Spirits of the Sun is not listed, even though it is the real BiS, in my opinion.

I feel that the current BiS trinkets are actually Scroll of Revered Ancestors and Relic of Chi Ji. So, thank you for bringing this to our attention. I've updated the BiS list accordingly.

While you do have a point in theory, the auto attack damage done by Holy Paladins is pitiful. Moreover, while you will be in melee range, and you should ideally attack as much as possible, you probably won't get to melee very much since you can't do it while you are casting spells.

Right now, I just feel like its benefit is too small to bring up.

I actually agree with most of what you said. Your points are solid, especially favouring Divine Purpose early on for mana concerns. I still think that Holy Avenger will win out later on, though.

So, for now, I've made updates to the talents page based on what you said. Thank you

Cool, hope it helps! I'll try to post more after doing some extensive raiding!

[Guest Guest]

Just want to mention there is also a quest for when you reach exhalted with Golden Lotus, /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("\124cffffff00\124Hquest:30646:90\124h[The Final Power]\124h\124r"); which gives an epic necklace that is IMO slightly better than the valor point reward with Klaxxi at revered.

[Vlad 411]

Just want to mention there is also a quest for when you reach exhalted with Golden Lotus, /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("124cffffff00124Hquest:30646:90124h[The Final Power]124h124r"); which gives an epic necklace that is IMO slightly better than the valor point reward with Klaxxi at revered.

Thanks for pointing these out. We'll be sure to add them to all our guides :)

[Guest Anahitaxz]

Hey, just had a quick question that I couldn't seem to find anywhere else. Does anyone know if 'Devotion Aura' stacks? We have myself and a prot pally.

[Vlad 411]

Hey, just had a quick question that I couldn't seem to find anywhere else. Does anyone know if 'Devotion Aura' stacks? We have myself and a prot pally.

I don't know, but I'll test and get back to you. Others are, of course, free to reply :)

[Guest Aurora NOva]

I am confused about the gem guide. I used Mr. Robot's holydin weights to calculate the values of the raw gems (as if for prismatic sockets), and I've found that spirit gems (+320) trump int gems (only +160). Am I missing something here? I do understand that int is now throughput (and very small crit chance), and spirit is merely regen, but blizzard doubled the values of secondary stats for a reason, right?

weights: int [1.00], spirit [0.75], haste [0.55], crit [0.50], mastery [0.50]

Brilliant (+160 int): 160

Sparkling (+320 spirit): 240

Quick (+320 haste): 176

Reckless (+80 int/+160 haste): 168

Purified (+80 int/+160 spirit): 200

Energized (+160 haste/+160 spirit): 208

[Guest Moomin]

Any reason the Revitalizing meta is not mentioned?

[Vlad 411]

We're going through updating the healer and tank stats/gem pages. We've done most of them, but haven't gotten to Holy Paladins yet. Personally, though, I agree with what Mr Robot is suggesting regarding the priority (Spirit > Haste > rest).

And yeah, raw Spirit gems trump the Intellect ones. And Revitalizing should be the meta-gem of choice. I'll be making all these updates tomorrow, if all goes well.

Thank you, guys!

[Guest Xs]

We're going through updating the healer and tank stats/gem pages. We've done most of them, but haven't gotten to Holy Paladins yet. Personally, though, I agree with what Mr Robot is suggesting regarding the priority (Spirit > Haste > rest).

And yeah, raw Spirit gems trump the Intellect ones. And Revitalizing should be the meta-gem of choice. I'll be making all these updates tomorrow, if all goes well.

Thank you, guys!

I would highly recommend you change the priority to the recommended Int > Spi > Mastery >= Haste as this guide is going to get a lot of 5 man and fresh raid players, as such the healing output that haste provides is going to be all but wasted, as they won't be able to have anywhere near the Spirit required to sustain haste stacking, possibly with a note saying you can swap it to haste in a similar way that Mr Robot suggests, once you've got a comfortable amount of spirit for you and have gotten used to weaving your cooldowns in enough to survive a fight.

The general consensus is as you've mentioned earlier in this thread, is that Hate is slightly better than Mastery for pure throughput, but as it can significantly increase your HPM to unsustainable levels, Mastery comes out on top based on the fact that its an entirely free stat and helps buff your spirit by proxy, I believe the maths puts them at even closer than the basic weighting that Mr Robot provides, somewhere around the 0.55 to 0.53 region for haste and mastery respectively.

If you want to see the discussion surrounding this, I recommend taking a good long read through the Holy Paladin thread on MMO Champion that has been linked previously, although I'm not sure if thats the location of any solid maths.

[Vlad 411]

I would highly recommend you change the priority to the recommended Int > Spi > Mastery >= Haste as this guide is going to get a lot of 5 man and fresh raid players, as such the healing output that haste provides is going to be all but wasted, as they won't be able to have anywhere near the Spirit required to sustain haste stacking, possibly with a note saying you can swap it to haste in a similar way that Mr Robot suggests, once you've got a comfortable amount of spirit for you and have gotten used to weaving your cooldowns in enough to survive a fight.

The general consensus is as you've mentioned earlier in this thread, is that Hate is slightly better than Mastery for pure throughput, but as it can significantly increase your HPM to unsustainable levels, Mastery comes out on top based on the fact that its an entirely free stat and helps buff your spirit by proxy, I believe the maths puts them at even closer than the basic weighting that Mr Robot provides, somewhere around the 0.55 to 0.53 region for haste and mastery respectively.

If you want to see the discussion surrounding this, I recommend taking a good long read through the Holy Paladin thread on MMO Champion that has been linked previously, although I'm not sure if thats the location of any solid maths.

Thanks for the post. I'll make a mention of this on the stats page, to cover both angles :)

[Guest steel]

Great guide - just one point of contention,

.) Mastery: at this point in the expansion is much more valuable than haste. I am surprised that this is actually not that obvious to people?

Every point to mastery increases the absorption shield on the target, increasing the total healing done, hence increasing the healing done/mana.

Since mana is at a premium this expac (why else is Spirit up there with intellect?), HPM > HPS.

I am not quite clear on how exactly haste will help current healers?

I would imagine faster holy light's would negate the need for divine lights or flash of lights - but those are currently pretty much emergency spells that are not really used that often in a fight. Holy light, due to it's 100% heal on the beacon target is the premiere heal to use even in situations that require heavy healing for multiple targets.

---

I also believe that DP/EF will probably be the best talents to use for quite some time - maybe at least this full tier. The only time I see that talent combo not being the most useful is when mana is no longer an issue, at which point spirit should be dropping from a top stat too and a whole bunch of things would change

[Guest Guest]

Regarding trinkets - I have found that the Yu'lon trinket is fantastic for healing classes (though likely Priest more than Paladin due to the easy application of DoTs by Priests. I haven't seen it proc off of Judgments but I expect it should - also procs pretty fast whenever I have a chance to Denounce a bit here and there. Just wondering about your thoughts. It was an easy choice to make as I found one on the AH for 22k (whereas the Chi Ji trinket sells for 40-50k). I love the Yu'lon trinket on my Priest.

[Vlad 411]

Great guide - just one point of contention,

.) Mastery: at this point in the expansion is much more valuable than haste. I am surprised that this is actually not that obvious to people?

Every point to mastery increases the absorption shield on the target, increasing the total healing done, hence increasing the healing done/mana.

Since mana is at a premium this expac (why else is Spirit up there with intellect?), HPM > HPS.

I am not quite clear on how exactly haste will help current healers?

I would imagine faster holy light's would negate the need for divine lights or flash of lights - but those are currently pretty much emergency spells that are not really used that often in a fight. Holy light, due to it's 100% heal on the beacon target is the premiere heal to use even in situations that require heavy healing for multiple targets.

---

I also believe that DP/EF will probably be the best talents to use for quite some time - maybe at least this full tier. The only time I see that talent combo not being the most useful is when mana is no longer an issue, at which point spirit should be dropping from a top stat too and a whole bunch of things would change

Thank you. I agree with your first point, and I've updated the stats section a bit to favour Mastery more heavily. I do still think Haste has great value in some situations, though. Time will tell how this plays out.

I've also updated the talents page ever so slightly to reflect the more permanent nature of DP/EF :)

Thank you again.

[Fel 42]

Hey folks,

Nice to see some dialogue for Holy Paladins, there hasn't been a tremendous amount of coverage this expansion (or so it feels to me at least). I've played extensively (about half my time) with the DP/EF build and a Holy Avenger/EF build. I have found both of them viable, but tend to defult to DP/EF when there is no obvious, infrequent need of Holy Avenger.

I am curious about something though. Given how the EF HoT interacts with our mastery shields, it is obviously a fantastic way to milk more out of our mastery stat, which I love (currently running full mastery reforge, and have been since ~ week 2 of MoP). What I wonder is, is it worth it to cast EF at 1 or 2 HoPo simply to have a HoT running on as many players as possible to keep mastery shields up, and to have a small HoT rolling to deal with minor raid damage? Is that an effective use of our resources from an HPS perspective?

I began to wonder about this when trawling through top HoF parses and noticing that the best pallies were all sporting enormous EF healing values, especially on fights like Garalon where the raid is arguably never topped off. I noticed that one fellow in particular had as many as 8 EFs running concurrently. WIthout EXTREME luck on DP procs (and he was indeed using DP for tier 5 talent), that would suggest that he is simply using any holy power he gets to keep HoTs rolling, rather than waiting until he has 3 holy power.

So I guess what I'm asking is, how smart/stupid is it to do this? Just from checking my own logs, it looks like the EF HoT doesnt change much (scales linearly? I r not math ><) per holy power use, for example a 1 HoPo EF ticks for ~2k , 2 ticks for ~ 4k, and 3 ticks for ~6k.

Would be great if anyone can shed any light on the situation, as at the moment I'm most definitely using EF without having 3 HoPo, particularly when there is little damage going out and I have nothing much to do, I tend to go: denounce, denounce, HS, EF, denounce, denounce, ad infinitum.

Finally, just noting your spirit/mana gains interest above, I thought I'd link an interesting article that I found a little while ago. The author makes some good points, and there is a nice debate in the forums afterwards in which he illuminates some of the math/reasoning/perspectives behind the article.

http://iam.yellingon...aling-problems/

Edit: Sorry, I should probably have mentioned, it's an int vs spirit debate article. I currnetly run ~ 9k spirit in raid, with 2 spirit proc trinks, and I'm having no problems at all.

Credit to the maintankadin poster who led me to the article in the first place (sorry, cant remember which thread now!).

Thanks!

Edited November 23, 2012 by Auracle

[Vlad 411]

Hey folks,

Nice to see some dialogue for Holy Paladins, there hasn't been a tremendous amount of coverage this expansion (or so it feels to me at least). I've played extensively (about half my time) with the DP/EF build and a Holy Avenger/EF build. I have found both of them viable, but tend to defult to DP/EF when there is no obvious, infrequent need of Holy Avenger.

I am curious about something though. Given how the EF HoT interacts with our mastery shields, it is obviously a fantastic way to milk more out of our mastery stat, which I love (currently running full mastery reforge, and have been since ~ week 2 of MoP). What I wonder is, is it worth it to cast EF at 1 or 2 HoPo simply to have a HoT running on as many players as possible to keep mastery shields up, and to have a small HoT rolling to deal with minor raid damage? Is that an effective use of our resources from an HPS perspective?

I began to wonder about this when trawling through top HoF parses and noticing that the best pallies were all sporting enormous EF healing values, especially on fights like Garalon where the raid is arguably never topped off. I noticed that one fellow in particular had as many as 8 EFs running concurrently. WIthout EXTREME luck on DP procs (and he was indeed using DP for tier 5 talent), that would suggest that he is simply using any holy power he gets to keep HoTs rolling, rather than waiting until he has 3 holy power.

So I guess what I'm asking is, how smart/stupid is it to do this? Just from checking my own logs, it looks like the EF HoT doesnt change much (scales linearly? I r not math ><) per holy power use, for example a 1 HoPo EF ticks for ~2k , 2 ticks for ~ 4k, and 3 ticks for ~6k.

Would be great if anyone can shed any light on the situation, as at the moment I'm most definitely using EF without having 3 HoPo, particularly when there is little damage going out and I have nothing much to do, I tend to go: denounce, denounce, HS, EF, denounce, denounce, ad infinitum.

Finally, just noting your spirit/mana gains interest above, I thought I'd link an interesting article that I found a little while ago. The author makes some good points, and there is a nice debate in the forums afterwards in which he illuminates some of the math/reasoning/perspectives behind the article.

http://iam.yellingon...aling-problems/

Edit: Sorry, I should probably have mentioned, it's an int vs spirit debate article. I currnetly run ~ 9k spirit in raid, with 2 spirit proc trinks, and I'm having no problems at all.

Credit to the maintankadin poster who led me to the article in the first place (sorry, cant remember which thread now!).

Thanks!

Hey!

I can confirm that the healing of EF scales linearly with Holy Power. So the only real loss in casting it with fewer than 3 HP is that you're possibly expending more global cooldowns towards this spell that could be being used for something else - if there's nothing useful that you'd spend them on, then I think it's perfectly fine.

Overall, I do indeed believe that you're right to be using fewer-than-3-HP EFs, especially if the full brunt of a 3HP EF would result in some overhealing.

Regarding the thread you linked, I feel I need to let out a massive sigh after having read through those comments. It's a very useful post, and I do thank you for bringing it to my attention. I just... well, I won't say anything about the debate here.

All I will say is that I think the Spirit side won in the "Int vs Spirit" debate - although I don't think you should even try to decide strictly on one over the other.

[Fel 42]

Awesome, thank you for replying, it's good to have some feedback :D

I did some more personal experimentation with EF and noticed something which is probably quite obvious, but maybe bears mentioning in case anyone was curious: The ticks of your EF work similarly to a HoT, in that they will snapshot your stats at the time of application and heal accordingly. However, they are NOT affected by the size of the 'WoG' portion, or direct EF potion, of the heal. So for example, if anything modifies the direct heal (basically, a crit), that will not automatically follow on to the HoT. However, if you have avenging wrath, or jade spirit active at the time of the cast, it will buff the HoT accordingly and the HoT will remained buffed until it falls off or you refresh it. This is pretty intuitive so I'm probably just wasting my breath, but I'm bored at work so I have it to spare anyway :P

I'm definitely using low HoPo EFs all the time now, they're great for fights with periodic damage spikes since the EFs basically equate mastery shields which normally last until the damage occurs. Very much liking Holy Paladin play this expansion, though I've never really disliked it in any form.

If anyone else has thoughts/tips/boredom-induced rambling on the matter, chime in! :D

-Auracle

[Guest Cupczech]

Can you update this page a bit, I feel like it is kind of out of date.

[Stoove 347]

Can you update this page a bit, I feel like it is kind of out of date.

You have to specify why it's out of date, otherwise nobody knows what you're talking about or how to go about updating.

[Guest Balatro]

The shoulders for BiS for Holy drop from Will of the Emperor -- NOT Hagara in Dragon Soul, as you have them listed.

[Guest Robert]

As with many things Icy ya'll have made a great and exceptional guide. Thank you for putting so much time and effort into it for us players. As with any post though I come with questions and responses.

1. You send us over to Mr. Robot for stat prioritizing as in concerned with reforging. You suggest Mastery>Haste>Crit which I have played with and enjoy though not a personal fan of when it comes to time of having to cross heal assignments. As far as progression goes it may make the healing of the tank easier but lacks in flexibility which is quite important as a healer. Mr. Robot has three suggestions for PvE essentially one for each green stat. Haste giving the higher burst healing capability and according to our good friend the Robot crit giving the best overall sustained HPS. I would like to know your input since you send us over there but only touch on one build for a Healadin. Also I would like to ask why the general fear of crit building with healers considering with illuminated healing glyph our Holy Shock could be great for mana regen.

2. Divine Purpose I am glad to see it recommended for mana conservation early on but disagree with it dropping later. When I have for the longest when I play a healer is to minimize any need for Healing CDs. I have seen to many healers become dependent on Healing CDs and if a CD is not available when they need it they panic and end up failing their assignments. I understand CDs are meant for "OH SH**!!!!" situations but as healers should we not be doing all in our power to make sure there isn't one to begin with? I understand with the 25% proc rate that is only a 1 in 4 chance of it proccing off three holy power or its own procs. That is not at all a large difference from crit building considering current tier raiding is quite predictable. Granted Heroic raiding should probably choose on demand CD but I believe the predictability and looseness of current normal difficulty makes Divine Purpose the better choice due to essentially free instant heals.

To wrap it up, with current fights being quite predictable on when spike damage comes through big casted heals can be timed quite easily to finish casting just as the spike of damage making Healing CDs less needed on the normal raid difficulty. If a group of healers can learn the fight well enough to not need their high healing output CDs as often then the ability to cast free instant heals conserving mana even more begins to out weigh the need for that extra healing output CD.

Thank you for your time I look forward to seeing a response here soon. Please have a wonderful day.

[Fel 42]

Hey Robert,

I didn't write the guide, but I'll weigh in with my impressions thus far.

1) The debate of throughput vs mana conservation, i.e. haste vs mastery, rages on and will never really be settled one way or the other, or so I believe. Healing is dependent on a multitude of factors other than gear and stats - level of progression, pace of progression, your co-healers, the skill or lack thereof of your raiders, and so forth. Getting back to your question, I believe the reason the Holy Paladin guide here at IV only follows 'one' particular methodology with respect to a reforge is that, as somewhat outlined in the guide itself, they needed to settle on one recommendation that people could take away and still be assured of a good result. The reality, as you have pointed out, is that there are numerous ways to massage your stats for different outcomes, each with its own merits. The IV team could have written up the various viewpoints/debates/reasons for and against each, but that is a different type of thread and doesn't really fulfill the criteria of a 'guide'. There are excellent web resources out there for this, most notably EJ, though sadly their Hpally thread isnt quite as robust as it has been in past expansions.

Bottom line, I think they picked one of several options that empirically is guaranteed to provide a good source of HPS, justified their reasoning, briefly mentioned alternatives, and left it at that.

2) This one comes down to personal preference. Their recommendation I think holds water - as you progress, your gear will provide you much more mana regen and thus your need for a talent that reduces mana costs will lessen - this is intuitive. However, as I mentioned above, your (anyone's) specific circumstances will likely dictate their talent choices more than the basics of the talents themselves. I've continued to run DP into heroic content simply because I find the uses for HA relatively limited in my group comp (we almost never hurt for a raid CD, consequently I'm not called upon to burst regularly and dont need another CD for it). I like the talent, it's safe and reliable and I know it saves me some mana in the long run. In groups without the luxury of two shaman and two priests, the need for a middling power HPS raid CD might be much stronger, and having the option of HA may outweight the individual's minor mana returns.

3) Regarding crit, yes you can reforge for it for a particular playstyle, but some considerations before you do.

a) It gains less per point from gear than either of the other two stats (gains are Mastery > haste >>> crit).

Crit's value is dimished by overhealing, so if your playstyle/group comp makes it likely you'll overheal, crit may not be for you. You can check this yourself of course, via logs testing.

c) By nature it is an RNG playstyle - you might get the crit when you need it, you might not. Compared to haste which directly boosts HPS (assuming no mana issues), or mastery which smooths out incoming damage.

As always with healing, bottom line: If people are alive and you're having fun at no one else's expense, do what makes you happy/you excel at.

-Auracle

Edited December 7, 2012 by Auracle

[Vlad 411]

As with many things Icy ya'll have made a great and exceptional guide. Thank you for putting so much time and effort into it for us players. As with any post though I come with questions and responses.

1. You send us over to Mr. Robot for stat prioritizing as in concerned with reforging. You suggest Mastery>Haste>Crit which I have played with and enjoy though not a personal fan of when it comes to time of having to cross heal assignments. As far as progression goes it may make the healing of the tank easier but lacks in flexibility which is quite important as a healer. Mr. Robot has three suggestions for PvE essentially one for each green stat. Haste giving the higher burst healing capability and according to our good friend the Robot crit giving the best overall sustained HPS. I would like to know your input since you send us over there but only touch on one build for a Healadin. Also I would like to ask why the general fear of crit building with healers considering with illuminated healing glyph our Holy Shock could be great for mana regen.

2. Divine Purpose I am glad to see it recommended for mana conservation early on but disagree with it dropping later. When I have for the longest when I play a healer is to minimize any need for Healing CDs. I have seen to many healers become dependent on Healing CDs and if a CD is not available when they need it they panic and end up failing their assignments. I understand CDs are meant for "OH SH**!!!!" situations but as healers should we not be doing all in our power to make sure there isn't one to begin with? I understand with the 25% proc rate that is only a 1 in 4 chance of it proccing off three holy power or its own procs. That is not at all a large difference from crit building considering current tier raiding is quite predictable. Granted Heroic raiding should probably choose on demand CD but I believe the predictability and looseness of current normal difficulty makes Divine Purpose the better choice due to essentially free instant heals.

To wrap it up, with current fights being quite predictable on when spike damage comes through big casted heals can be timed quite easily to finish casting just as the spike of damage making Healing CDs less needed on the normal raid difficulty. If a group of healers can learn the fight well enough to not need their high healing output CDs as often then the ability to cast free instant heals conserving mana even more begins to out weigh the need for that extra healing output CD.

Thank you for your time I look forward to seeing a response here soon. Please have a wonderful day.

Hey Robert!

Much of what I was going to say has already been stated by Auracle, but I can reinforce a few points.

We are very well aware of the great variety of possible gearing strategies. You can probably make anything work, given the right circumstances and set-up. This is one of things that makes World of Warcraft so great! Sadly, there is no way that we can cover all of this in every guide, keep it all updated all the time, and still make it easy for someone to read our guide and go away with a solid idea of how to viably play their character. For this reason, we try to boil things down to the "best" way as often as we can. This applies to talents, rotations, and stats. We recognize that for stats, it's even harder than usual to give a "one size fits all" answer, so we refer to Ask Mr. Robot, which gives you a personalized gearing strategy based on your character.

To the point - gearing for Mastery right now is the safest best, and it's something that will work out for most people in most situations. If you've read this thread, or other threads in the Paladin section, you'll know that I'm a pretty big fan of Haste, and if I was playing a a Holy Paladin in heroic progression now, I'd still be gearing for Haste over Mastery. Each of the two stats has its own benefits, which is something that I strive to outline in the guide.

Critical Strike Rating is a stat I am not a fan of (and this has been a point of friendly contention between me and the people at Ask Mr. Robot) when it comes to healing. It can produce great results, and it can give you a huge amount of healing done at the end of the fight, but it introduces a random element in your healing that I am not a fan of. Haste and Mastery, on the other hand, are consistently there, and you can rely on them.

For similar reasons, I believe that in some situations, Holy Avenger is better than Divine Purpose? Why? Because you know it will be there for you. Divine Purpose is awesome, and in the age where mana is an issue, it's even more awesome. But it's ultimately not as reliable as Holy Avenger.

I hope that answers some of your questions - I love this topic (well, I love all topics), so feel free to come back and post more. Also, make a real forum account so I can "like" your posts :)

[Meboommon 0]

Thank you both Auracle and Vlad for your quick responses it is greatly appreciated.

All three builds offer great viability though I can agree that Mastery is probably the easiest to handle since it will in the end hopefully require less healing to be done overall thanks to the bubble from direct heals.

I personally right now am gearing for Haste>Crit>Mastery. I always have believed Haste to be one of the most viable options for healers (minus the druid after hitting certain plateaus for ticks) because of the ability to get off that big heal in very little time. When tanks are at 10% a 1/2 second can feel like an eternity when you are casting a large heal.

I admit with crits there is a high chance for overhealing but unlike alot of the other healers us paladins have a little more room for overhealing due to our Mastery giving a bubble based off a % of our heal. Even a paladins overhealing is not a complete waste of mana. Add in Glyph of Illumination it make crits look much better considering holy shock has a natural 25% increase chance to crit. Now I am not entirely certain my math is accurate but using AMR with my Healer (as I mentioned before is undergeared still so feel free to nit pick it char name is Healsåtank on Kalecgos) and optimizing for Haste>Crit>Mastery, 26%>15.46%>23.72% are my final products (Haste is a bit off due to AMR not accounting for Seal) With 15150 (give or take) MP5 out of combat. Without the Glyph it is 10,756 in combat regen with 5378 while casting. In a 5minute boss fight of non stop casting trying to take into account instants in which u are standing there for 1 second waiting on GCD to finish. Without the Glyph in a 5minute boss fight using no CDs just natural regens during casting/instant/GCDs I would regenerate about 392,010 which is about 6533.5 mp5. Using the glyph meaning holy shock will crit 40% of the time. I can cast it 10 times in 1 minute which means 4 will crit. 20 total will crit in 5minutes. Using the same numbers except counting for the glyph being equipped it drops passive regen down to 369,263 total with a 6154 mp5. Add in the Holy Shock Crits though that return 1% mana per crit so 20x3,000= 60,000 changing our total regen to 429,263 and our mp5 to 7154. Now bullets so its easier to read.

(Using Healsåtank from Kalecgos Dec. 7th at 10:50AM)

Without Glyph of Illumination

• Total Regen in 5min Fight = 392,010
• Total mp5 = 6533

With Glyph of Illumination (@15% crit chance)

• Total Regen in 5min Fight = 429,263
• Total mp5 = 7154

My apologies if I rambled on a bit but felt never hurts to show math on why I feel something should be strongly considered viable especially considering until the next patch and gear mana regen still hurts. We do not see a huge increase off of my current gear especially being forged more Haste>Crit>Mastery....with a Crit>Mastery or Crit>Haste we would see the crit chance jump exceptionally just reforging my gear takes it to 20% and once in all 463ilvl+ gear would not be out of the question to hit 25% making Holy Shock crit 50% of the time giving 15000 more mana to the total. Changing the mp5 to 7404 nearly a 1k mp5 difference between using the glyph and not using it if you are a crit build while only a 5-600 mp5 difference with crit secondary.

Anyways there is my two cents in on it again. I agree as well love this topic and the only way to get more people out there trying various builds and seeing what all we can do with the classes is to have a place where we can discuss it without being called a noob. Thanks for providing that IV.

(None of the figures took into account any healing CDs, Haste/Spirit Procs, or Divine Purpose procs. Just base stats while buffed with no procs.)

Edited December 7, 2012 by Meboommon

[Vlad 411]

*snip*

I'm in almost complete agreement with you about the value and benefits of Haste for healers, and Holy Paladins in particular. The only reason it's below Mastery is, in my opinion, that we're currently so cramped for mana, and not because Mastery's particularly awesome for healing.

Regarding Glyph of Illumination, smarter people than I have deemed it to stop being worth using once you get more Spirit (the values range on various thing, but once you reach 7,000 Spirit or so). Getting the 4-part Tier 14 set bonus reduces the cooldown of Holy Shock by 2 seconds, which would clearly boost the efficiency of the glyph, possibly making it viable even at higher gear levels.

I'll look into this more, and perhaps others can post too in the meanwhile. Thanks for bringing it up :)

[Fel 42]

I was just about to say the same as Vlad regarding the interaction of 4T14 and the Glyph, I am curious about it as well.

Great post Meboommon, always happy when folks provide an explanation/reason/math for their arguements. I'm going to spend a little time looking for more info on subject and see if I cant uncover anything just as a matter of curiosity. I've been sitting at around 9k +/- ~300 spirit since our 2nd week or so of progression ( I have just sickening luck with bonus rolls) and have been very happy with regen so far, but meh, anecdotal.

Great input all, keep it coming :D