[Archived] Holy Paladin 5.4

[Guest Zeddicuszul]

I may have missed it, and I am sorry if this is a repete, but, why hasn't anything been mentioned about the 4 peice PvP set. 2 peice gives HS 10% and 4 piece when you use EF at 3 holy power gives you 1 hp back. Now when you have 5 HP and you EF, you get to actually use EF twice at 3 HP without having to do anything for the extra HP. When you combine that with DP procs....well, if you end up getting a proc run, you refill your HP, you get to cast EF muti times without any cost of mana, and when it is done you are back to full HP and still have 2 more free casts of EF that could put you into another DP proc. Combining this with the glyph of protector of the innocent you also heal yourself for 20%, and EF ticks refresh your mastery bubble. Also the PvP gloves gives 2% chance for FoL to crit, you add that with your glyph of FoL and your next heal to that target within 7 secs will have a 10% increase.

Sorry its early and just woke up, hope I didn't waste anybody's time with this, but I didn't see it mentioned and wanted to know your thoughts.

[Fel 42]

I may have missed it, and I am sorry if this is a repete, but, why hasn't anything been mentioned about the 4 peice PvP set. 2 peice gives HS 10% and 4 piece when you use EF at 3 holy power gives you 1 hp back. Now when you have 5 HP and you EF, you get to actually use EF twice at 3 HP without having to do anything for the extra HP. When you combine that with DP procs....well, if you end up getting a proc run, you refill your HP, you get to cast EF muti times without any cost of mana, and when it is done you are back to full HP and still have 2 more free casts of EF that could put you into another DP proc. Combining this with the glyph of protector of the innocent you also heal yourself for 20%, and EF ticks refresh your mastery bubble. Also the PvP gloves gives 2% chance for FoL to crit, you add that with your glyph of FoL and your next heal to that target within 7 secs will have a 10% increase.

Sorry its early and just woke up, hope I didn't waste anybody's time with this, but I didn't see it mentioned and wanted to know your thoughts.

Sorry Zedd, I'm not quite sure what you're asking. It looks like you've just listed the effects of the PvP set bonuses - that's fine and they do seem interesting, but what are you getting at exactly? If your point is to suggest their viability in PvE, then sure, I'll admit they have their practical functionality, though I dont doubt that it's equalled by the PvE set bonuses. Also, at the end of the day, the stat difference between PvE and PvP gear, while less than before, is still an important factor in gear choice.

I suppose if you were the unluckiest holy paladin ever and simply couldnt get your hands on PvE tier pieces you could make a case for filling in the blanks with PvP gear in the interim. I dont think I'd have gone for it personally - it took me a while to get my PvE 4 piece, but I had some excellent stand in non-tier pieces while I was waiting.

If you wanted to start a discussion on the merits of PvP gear, I'm afraid I cant offer much there, I'm exclusively PvE, and this comment thread is for a PvE guide. There may be someone in the PvP forum threads who will comment though :)

Good luck!

[Guest Zeddicuszul]

Thanks for the reply.

I was actually commenting on the fact that PvP gear for a holy pally is actually quite good for PvE raid healing. While the actual "stats" are lower by comparison, the benefits of the 4 piece bonus makes it quite valuable in raiding. I serf many forums and when I first started healing in this XPac I did all the rep farming and valor farming only to still basically suck at healing. So I went to the forums. EJ made a point of the PvP gear for holy pally raid healing so I ground out some honor and got the 4 piece and first raid I went to I destroyed the other healz in our group by overall healz, HPS, and Absorbs.

I wasn't trying to actually start a PvP healing forum, I was just commenting on the actual PvP gear as being equal to, if not better than the Tier gear. And I do use your forums for almost all my raid research. Love your site, and value your knowledge hence the comment on your thoughts about the use of the PvP set compared to the PvE tier. I had a huge problem with using PvP gear until I saw the numbers it produces. I was really one minded and had to have change of opinion. This forum is about PvE holy pally raiding, and if the PvP gear can enhance and or be a value to the type of play style, I don't think it should be "tossed aside" to a PvP forum. We as healers have to be flexable to all sorts of crap in raid, I think that means we also have to be flexable in how we look at producting the best results.

Now I am not very smart when it comes to the whole number crunch, but some of the best holy pally healers during the start of progression were using the 4 peice PvP gear, and going with the DP/EF/mastery build. Heroic Teir is by far better than the PvP set, but until you get to that point might be of interest. Just don't think you should close off that avenue if its viable.

[Guest Zeddicuszul]

Sorry one more comment, I went back to world of logs and checked the 10 man normal healing numbers. The top healer for stone guard fight is Parody from Korgath, using 4 piece conquest PvP gear. http://worldoflogs.c...2&e=4492#Parody .

Another link if you wanted to look at the other top healers. There are alot of pallys up there, using both tier gear and pvp gear.

http://worldoflogs.c...han_Vaults/hps/

[Fel 42]

Very interesting Zedd.

I was aware of the leaning towards PvP tier pieces and I'd read the EJ thread on the matter and wasn't especially sold on it myself, but like you, I've never been much of a number cruncher and consequently wasnt too worried about finding out which of the two was 'empirically' better. Without blowing my own horn, I've never had any difficulties topping meters in any forum on my hpally, and tend to ignore meters in general unless myself or a co-healer are so low on HPS that there is a clear problem.

Regarding the wologs, yes I see your point, though it's interesting that I never came across a single top-end hpally using conq tier when I was doing my own delving during the first few weeks of the expansion. Like you, I use the wologs HPS rankings as a tool to improve/compare my performance. I filter for hpally, then take a batch of 50 or so ranked logs from US servers and check their breakdowns to see what theyre doing and how I can match it. I armoried many of them to check gear/glyph and talent setups and never once came across anyone using PvP tier.

Whether or not PvP surpasses PvE tier is probably an irrelevant discussion - bottom line is, if you can produce competitive (and more importantly, raid-saving) HPS in whatever gearset you are using, then it's certainly viable. I haven't seen logs, nor tested it out myself, but given what you've provided above, it does appear substantiated.

Good info

[Guest puppytoes]

I just wanted to point out that the "statistics priority and reforging" section contradicts the "geming and enchanting" section. One tells you to prioritize int, the other spirit.

[MadMonk 154]

I just wanted to point out that the "statistics priority and reforging" section contradicts the "geming and enchanting" section. One tells you to prioritize int, the other spirit.

Intellect is your most important stat, but since the spirit gems give you double the stats from intellect gems (320 spirit vs 160 int) gemming for spirit probably is more worthwhile. If however you think you have enough spirit and never seem to run out of mana, you can switch some spirit gems to intellect or int/spir gems.

[Guest puppytoes]

Ah, thanks for the clarification, silly me, I wasn't even thinking about the different values of the stats on the gem. You may want to change the "jewlcrafting" portion of the profession bonuses portion of the "Gems, Enchants, and Consumables" page as it recommends the spirit serpents eye which grants a flat 160 bonus of either spirit or int per gem.

Lastly, I was wondering if you or any other 10man raiding holy paladins had any thoughts on the synergies (or lack there of) between the holy paladin mastery and having a disc priest healer in raid. I had been considering switching from reforging mastery to haste (I believe I have the mana regen to sustain it) as I feel like having double absorption effects may devalue mastery somewhat in certain situations where the disc priest absorb causes the mastery absorb to not be used. I'm not really sure how realistic of a concern that is given the amount of damage and frequency on most fights though.

Basically the question is when would you recommend haste of mastery assuming you are not having mana issues...which is true most of the time, especially if I am able to weave in the occasional melee hit on the boss (something that I would think haste would help, what with the lower swing time). I know that mastery is still better in almost every case though.

[Guest Jena]

1. Tier 5 talents

I agree with you that Divine Purpose is not ideal for healer. And I highly plause that you point out the choice should be based on utility of the cooldowns. Holy Avenger requires you to use as much as possible Holy Power generating spells: DL or FoL on beaconed tank, HR, HS, and Crusador Strike. I don't know whether it procs with blessed life. HS has a cooldown, CS requires you be in melee range, and has missing issues, DL, FoL and HR are all situational and expensive, making this cooldown a scary mana dump. Sanctified Wrath allows you to use HS more. HS is a very good filling skill for either single target or aoe healing, due to its great mana efficiency, its instant casting, its intrinsic high crit chance, its nice crit proc and also with Daybreak effect its aoe effects. But, of course HA is independant, while SW is passive with AW, thus HA gives you one more cooldown at hand, as long as you have the mana to burn.

2. Tier 6 talents

I believe stay of execution be the worst of this tier for a healer. Simply because this guy goes slowly at beginning, and becomes stronger as the hammer falls, and finishes with a big boom, usually the group is not going to allow tank or anyone's health to stay low for that long time for a final big boom. Even if you don't do that, other healers will quickly top tank off, and your big boom goes to overheal, hopefully you recycle some through mastery, unless you can time your spell with an incoming big damage preciesely, such as your hammer booms right after an impale or psychic drain. This cooldown is hard to manage. Holy prism is best at least for 5 man group. I only use this spell offensively. The 5 targets it heals almost surely includes the tank, and the other 4 will provide 15% through beacon. This is a very nice cooldown to quickly heal the tank and several nearby dps, it's strong and quick. Light's Harmmer is great for 25 man as you have more ppl stacking together. In 10 man, might be weaker.

Tier 5:

Holy Avenger is the best choice for fights where you have major hp hit to your raid but then a break from heavy raid damage. I would say Divine Purpose would really work great for fights where your raid is taking constant damage. Either you dump the procs as dawns to give an illuminated healing coat to your raid or it being constant damage the dawn will never really go to overhealing. Being a proc it becomes less useful for fights without aoe damage all the time. But at least Divine Purpose is free. It costs no mana (obviously the spells would cost holy power not mana but they also proc off spells that cost holy power). The key to using Divine Purpose is tracking the proc and the time on it. It's random but you CAN force procs by spending holy power one at a time either on eternal flames or dawns. Dunno why Im defending Divine Purpose right now. lol Guess it's cos people have really made a joke of it when in fact I do find it has it's purposes.

Tier 6:

Ah yes Holy Prism is my standard pick and on some fights I use Light's Hammer. The cooldown on Light's Hammer is a little steep though and of course so useless when people are moving around. Of course, there will always be that time you see people positioned just perfect for you to smack your big wet hammer right in between them but you have Holy Prism activated. Holy Prism is never really as useless as Light's Hammer CAN be though. I always start off with Holy Prism when it's a new fight I'm trying to figure out. Then I can see if Light's Hammer will fit better.

[Chronis 1]

Quick question just because I'm curious: does haste affect out hots from EF like it does for other healers' hots? I see no reason why it shouldn't, but I don't remember seeing anything on this anywhere thus far. I obviously don't see this as being a big game changer for us. It did occur to me that since EF puts a 30 second hot on each use, that it would take less haste % per extra tick as compared to other healers hots (assuming my understanding of hots and dots is accurate).

Decided to look outside the regular places I look and found this:

http://www.totemspot.com/vb/entry.php?b=41&page=2

Curiousity: Sated.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Chronis

[Tarazet 144]

I like to think outside the box a little bit and come up with ideas to improve my play in ways that might be a little unconventional. This probably comes from playing a Druid as my main, which is a flexible class that can take on different roles as the situation calls for it. So take this suggestion for what it is: something to experiment with and use in a situation where it is merited.

I believe that Glyph of Holy Shock can be desirable even in raiding situations. If you take this glyph, obviously you won't want to heal with the spell unless you have no choice, and this will have an impact on your healing output and flexibility. However, using a glyphed Holy Shock to damage the boss and generate Holy Power is far superior on a pure efficiency basis, compared to healing with an unglyphed Holy Shock. It hits hard and has an increased critical chance as well. So from a perspective of putting mana to the best possible use, Glyph of Holy Shock can be a benefit to the raid while still providing the secondary resource that Paladins use to heal efficiently.

My feeling is that the best use of this particular glyph would be in 25-mans, or in some 10-man encounters in the event that you can't quite two-heal an encounter, but you don't need the third healer to be healing 100% of the time. If you do take this glyph, I recommend not to use Glyph of Divine Plea, so that you can use your damaging abilities while the debuff from Divine Plea is active rather than doing nothing while you wait for the cast to finish.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Tarazet

[Guest Holycow]

I would like to poit out that Alcemy Flask Grants you 320 Extra int and 480 extra spirit, Not 320 spirit

[Guest Luvbacon]

I really love the treatment your other class guides have recently received with top 100 players reviewing them. Any idea when we can expect the same treatment for the Holy Paladin guide?

[Vlad 411]

I really love the treatment your other class guides have recently received with top 100 players reviewing them. Any idea when we can expect the same treatment for the Holy Paladin guide?

Yes indeed. Atismund of Envy has recently submitted his notes, and I've been updating the guide. I'm practically done, so you can expect to see the changes on the site tomorrow!

[Shazwozza 1]

Hey Guys, I think this part is worded incorrectly...

Healing with Flash of Light will drain your mana very quickly and should not be used lightly.

[Vlad 411]

Hey Guys, I think this part is worded incorrectly...

Healing with Flash of Light will drain your mana very quickly and should not be used lightly.

I think the guide is correct. We when say "it should not be used lightly", we mean that you should not be too liberal with it.

[Guest Jaenalys]

Hello,

With patch 5.3 the mastery of holy paly has been changed. The patch announce a nerf of 2%.

But in fact, the nerf is much bigger.

For example, before the patch, I had 29% of mastery. After the patch, in game, I have 22%.

Mr robot announce that I should have 27% which is wrong...

It looks like before the patch, it was:

12 (illuminated) + 17 (stuff mastery) = 29

and now something like:

(10 (illuminated) + 17 (stuff mastery)) * 5/6 = 22.5

I think this change a lot the stat priority...

[Vlad 411]

Hello,

With patch 5.3 the mastery of holy paly has been changed. The patch announce a nerf of 2%.

But in fact, the nerf is much bigger.

For example, before the patch, I had 29% of mastery. After the patch, in game, I have 22%.

Mr robot announce that I should have 27% which is wrong...

It looks like before the patch, it was:

12 (illuminated) + 17 (stuff mastery) = 29

and now something like:

(10 (illuminated) + 17 (stuff mastery)) * 5/6 = 22.5

I think this change a lot the stat priority...

I do not know exactly by how much Mastery has been nerfed, but I do know that it is still the best stat, so there isn't anything to change in the guide.

[Guest Cyn]

The nerf was a 2% nerf to the base our base mastery and then scaling went from 1.5% to 1.25%.

And yes mastery is still better.

[Guest Zenima]

Hi!

Could someone clarify please, if the suggested JC gem (sparkling over brilliant) is correct? Doesn't seem to be right for me, as the gems give a flat bonus, not percent, therefore we compare +160 int vs +160 spirit. Even in this guide it clearly states our stat prio is int > spi.

Thanks!

Zenima

[Krazyito 521]

Intellect is a higher weight than spirit, you are correct, but with gems secondary stats have double the state.

Example: Sparkling is 320, while brilliant is 160, thus since intellect does not have a weight greater than double of spirit, it means that spirit wins out in gemming

[MadMonk 154]

Hi!

Could someone clarify please, if the suggested JC gem (sparkling over brilliant) is correct? Doesn't seem to be right for me, as the gems give a flat bonus, not percent, therefore we compare +160 int vs +160 spirit. Even in this guide it clearly states our stat prio is int > spi.

Thanks!

Zenima

Intellect is a higher weight than spirit, you are correct, but with gems secondary stats have double the state.

Example: Sparkling is 320, while brilliant is 160, thus since intellect does not have a weight greater than double of spirit, it means that spirit wins out in gemming

I believe Zenima is talking about the JC specific gems. The bonus is indeed 2x+160 int or 2x+160 spirit. However, you should still compare the gems themselves (480 spirit vs 320 intellect) in which case i believe the spirit gems still win, unless you are already very comfortable with your current spirit.

[Guest Alextros]

Hey there, A very nice guide indeed.

The only thing I would be worried about, is the wording of Daybreak, as it is abit missleading right now. The holy shock does still heal the original target, but the additional healing is not, where as it tells now, it heals targets around the original, but not healing the original at all.

[Vlad 411]

Hey there, A very nice guide indeed. The only thing I would be worried about, is the wording of Daybreak, as it is abit missleading right now. The holy shock does still heal the original target, but the additional healing is not, where as it tells now, it heals targets around the original, but not healing the original at all.

Thanks for pointing this out. Seems this came with 5.3 and I somehow missed it. Updating the guide now!

[Guest Basttion]

Hey there, love the guide.  I check in every so often to see what the smart people think of holy rotations and what not.

 

One minor correction from 5.4.

 

"Thirdly, if there is no raid damage, you should try to keep your Mastery shields up on as many players as possible. Simply stack them with Holy Shock and Holy Light, and keep them refreshed with Eternal Flame (each HoT tick refreshes the shields)."

 

The bold part is actually incorrect.  The HoT no longer refreshes the shield from mastery.

 

I've been wondering if this nerf would cause people to rethink going for mastery and eternal flame, but so far I've been sticking with it and in two raids I think the other buff's to EF really make it comparable in situations of large raid damage.