wow Player Complains to Guild Officers to Change Another Player's Skin Tone?!

[Starym 3,800]

 

We're back in bizarro world today, as we're taking a look at perhaps one of the weirdest requests ever asked of a guild officer.

Apparently a guild member was messaging officers (presumably for a while) to ask Ultiverse to change the skin tone on their character. You can see the full interaction below, and it might just be the most bizarre thing we've seen in WoW in quite a while.

The "joke" part is particularly confusing, but luckily Ultiverse clarified exactly what was going on:

This is a particularly strange claim, as the only real lore of WoW is, well, the game (especially since pretty much every book/ancillary lore source has been retconned at some point), and as the skin tone is available in it, well, that's as lore-correct as possible! The fact that the officer actually went and talked to Ultiverse and asked if they minded switching is pretty bad too, and you can find plenty of comments urging them to immediately leave the guild.

In any case this one definitely makes our "weirdest things to be said in WoW" list. Do you have any similarly peculiar things you've heard in the game?

[FireLordJohn 91]

I'm not trying to start trouble, but could such complaints be considered racist?

[durdyenglish 298]

This is cringe worthy. 

World of Warcraft is a fantasy universe. It is 100% made up. Anything can be anything at any time, it is literally whatever the writers say most recently.

If the writers say that dark skin elves are (and by that end, always have been) in the lore, then dark skin elves are in the lore. The end.

When people act like this over these specific types of character customization changes, I'm inclined to think they are racist or at best, obtuse. Allowing playable avatars to mirror the real life aesthetic of the people playing them is not only inclusive, but basic strategy when attempting to secure a long-standing player base. People play more when they are invested. Character customization, especially in ways that allow them resemble the players themselves, is a huge part of getting people to invest.

Do not respond with any commentary regarding purity of lore. This game has been hacked up and rebuilt so many times. To hyper-fixate on the skin tone options of playable characters is extremely inappropriate for what should be obvious reasons.

If you hadn't thought of this yet, consider: A person playing a character might actually have that skin tone and FINALLY has a chance to better envision themselves as the Champion of Azeroth through a now more accurate avatar. Then, you walk up to them and spit on them LITERALLY because of their skin color. There's a decent chance that person has been spit on in real life because of their skin color. There's a decent chance that you're being casually racist and obtuse. 

These people hide behind a spotty and patchwork lore so they can hurl insults at dark-skinned avatars. Stop being casually racist. Stop being obtuse.

 

 

[Dejo93 1,023]

Despite being 13% of the Horde, Blood Elves are responsible for 56% of magic crimes

[Dejo93 1,023]

22 minutes ago, FireLordJohn said:

I'm not trying to start trouble, but could such complaints be considered racist?

No. And the fact this is even mentioned here just shows how ridiculous this thing is.

[Yojiro 30]

36 minutes ago, durdyenglish said:

This is cringe worthy.

What's cringeworthy is your wall of drivel.

I spit on every orc, you gonna cry about that too? What about my character that only ganks draenei, you got a sob story about draenei players getting ganked irl or does your white saviour complex only kick in for "dark skinned avatars"?

55 minutes ago, durdyenglish said:

Character customization, especially in ways that allow them resemble the players themselves, is a huge part of getting people to invest.

Almost nobody makes their characters resemble themselves, If that was such a "huge part" most races would have almost no players.

[Halock 156]

57 minutes ago, durdyenglish said:

World of Warcraft is a fantasy universe. It is 100% made up. Anything can be anything at any time, it is literally whatever the writers say most recently.

If the writers say that dark skin elves are (and by that end, always have been) in the lore, then dark skin elves are in the lore. The end.

This isn't understanding everything. I say that not to contradict you, certainly not to be 'obtuse', and definitely not purely on the basis of 'lore', but to add to you, I hope. You have to dig a little deeper, I believe.

I'm pretty confident in saying the dude indeed acted poorly. Making a big deal out of something small (and you're quite right, it is small) is foolish to begin with. Making a big deal out of something you know people are particularly, no doubt understandably, yet frequently ridiculously, sensitive about is very foolish.

But we do no good by dismissing the complaint entirely. To foster good relations we have to foster good understanding. 

Warcraft cannot be anything at any time. That is, I say with humour rather than abuse, ridiculous.

Technically, yes, tomorrow they could write Darth Vader in as the end boss of Shadowlands. That would be canon. But it would not be Warcraft. It would be Star Wars. 

They could, tomorrow, in all but name change it into World of Teaparties.  It would be canon that Sylvanas and Anduin have sippy-tea with Mr Snuggles. But if they did they might as well change the name -- it wouldn't be Warcraft.

And those are silly, extreme, examples. And arguably sippy-tea with Mr Snuggles is a step up in writing quality. But Warcraft is definable. The limits of it are endlessly arguable and very malleable, of course -- but if they didn't exist we wouldn't be able to call Warcraft 'Warcraft'. 

One of those limits is that blood elves are pale. Blood elves' image up until this point was 100% consistent: they are pale. This isn't just cosmetic, either. They are also haughty, aristocratic, arrogant, magical, slim, quick, elvish and isolated. Paleness fits into and compliments all of those in different ways and extents.

And I say that, again, without contradicting you. I think the guy was foolish. I think he acted like a git. I think the addition of more skin colours is probably on the whole a good thing. I don't think it's impossible to find ways dark-skinned blood elves could represent the same, or different, things as pale ones. I think it's perfectly possible to not care about those things and for it be chosen for entirely cosmetic, emotional or representative reasons. I think Warcraft's lore, setting and aesthetics are very malleable.  You do you, dark-skinned blood elf.

But I can also understand why the dude doesn't like them. I think we all should. Perhaps the change is a net gain. Assume it is! But nothing comes without downsides. And one of the downsides of darkskinned blood elves being available is that their aesthetic, and arguably the idea of them, is diluted.

Perhaps in the long run it will enhance them. Perhaps it won't affect them. Perhaps this is mostly people being sensitive about people being sensitive.

But all things have costs. 

[Rhondis 148]

The actions of the individual is ridiculous at best, but yall forget how fanatical the fan base gets when there's any sort of lore breaking/retconning that occurs. Here's my question, if its ok for Blood Elves to break lore and be a darker skin tone? Why is not ok for Nightborne or Void Elves to be of a lighter tone? Blizzard is wildly inconsistent. And its stuff like this that causes outbursts. Remember when most of the fan base was upset about Sylvanas' character flipped a 180 in BFA? And how it didn't add up in the lore? What makes this any different? 

[darkgreenwax 412]

Where's that old Metzen drawing from 1999 that literally has North-Western Kalimdor listed with "dark elves" in his own writing?

And GET REAL dark elves in D&D mythos are the coolest MFers around. We all know WoW borrows and honors many aspects of Tolkien, D&D, Warhammer, etc.

Shame on the Officer/Guild Authority even humoring such a claim. If it was my guild I'd boot the guy with the problem with skin color. It's much more representative of their issues outside of WoW.

[Rhondis 148]

3 minutes ago, Halock said:

This isn't understanding everything. I say that not to contradict you, certainly not to be 'obtuse', and definitely not purely on the basis of 'lore', but to add to you, I hope. You have to dig a little deeper, I believe.

I'm pretty confident in saying the dude indeed acted poorly. Making a big deal out of something small (and you're quite right, it is small) is foolish to begin with. Making a big deal out of something you know people are particularly, no doubt understandably, yet frequently ridiculously, sensitive about is very foolish.

But we do no good by dismissing the complaint entirely. To foster good relations we have to foster good understanding. 

Warcraft cannot be anything at any time. That is, I say with humour rather than abuse, ridiculous.

Technically, yes, tomorrow they could write Darth Vader in as the end boss of Shadowlands. That would be canon. But it would not be Warcraft. It would be Star Wars. 

They could, tomorrow, in all but name change it into World of Teaparties.  It would be canon that Sylvanas and Anduin have sippy-tea with Mr Snuggles. But if they did they might as well change the name -- it wouldn't be Warcraft.

And those are silly, extreme, examples. And arguably sippy-tea with Mr Snuggles is a step up in writing quality. But Warcraft is definable. The limits of it are endlessly arguable and very malleable, of course -- but if they didn't exist we wouldn't be able to call Warcraft 'Warcraft'. 

One of those limits is that blood elves are pale. Blood elves' image up until this point was 100% consistent: they are pale. This isn't just cosmetic, either. They are also haughty, aristocratic, arrogant, magical, slim, quick, elvish and isolated. Paleness fits into and compliments all of those in different ways and extents.

And I say that, again, without contradicting you. I think the guy was foolish. I think he acted like a git. I think the addition of more skin colours is probably on the whole a good thing. I don't think it's impossible to find ways dark-skinned blood elves could represent the same, or different, things as pale ones. I think it's perfectly possible to not care about those things and for it be chosen for entirely cosmetic, emotional or representative reasons. I think Warcraft's lore, setting and aesthetics are very malleable.  You do you, dark-skinned blood elf.

But I can also understand why the dude doesn't like them. I think we all should. Perhaps the change is a net gain. Assume it is! But nothing comes without downsides. And one of the downsides of darkskinned blood elves being available is that their aesthetic, and arguably the idea of them, is diluted.

Perhaps in the long run it will enhance them. Perhaps it won't affect them. Perhaps this is mostly people being sensitive about people being sensitive.

But all things have costs. 

I agree with this 100%. When lore is established people treat it like history, and when that history is built upon and expanded you get a fan base that fully invests in it and learn more about it. Its justifiable when that history is all of sudden rewritten with little to now reasons other than to please a majority of people. 

For example, as a kid I was deep into the Eragon books. I read each and everyone one of them and fully invested myself into the characters and how they appeared, talked, acted, etc. Eragon, as portrayed in the book, is said to have brown hair and brown eyes. Well imagine my distate and hate when they release a shoddy live action movie of Eragon, and made the main character have blue eyes and blonde hair (because whats more attractive than a character with blonde hair and blue eyes?). I dont hate the actor per se, but the producers who decided to go against the book, even if its minor. This is literally the same scenario, except the individual is in the wrong for their actions. 

[Halock 156]

19 minutes ago, Yojiro said:

Almost nobody makes their characters resemble themselves, If that was such a "huge part" most races would have almost no players.

Excuse me I resemble an undead werewolf knight IRL tyvm. 

But this isn't entirely true. People rarely craft characters which resemble them exactly, but they do like to have options to create an appearance they admire or emulate. 

To take a non-charged example: one of my characters is a white-haired balding paladin. Being only 20-something-or-other, I can't say he resembles me. But perhaps he's what I hope to be one day. Perhaps he's just a sort of person I admire. Point is: if I couldn't make him white-haired, or balding, or old, I would be disappointed.

To take a slightly more charged, yet I think more interesting example: It is sometimes complained that female characters are only so beautiful because men like them to be beautiful. But I've noticed many women which I've met deliberately craft beautiful characters, and seem as fond of enhancing their character's beauty as many of the men. They admire it like the men do. The complaint is perhaps not so much that female characters are beautiful but that there aren't options for not being beautiful.

Because sometimes you want a character who is relatable. Sometimes, one to emulate. Sometimes, less so.

You can translate that easily into skin colour. 

You then reach the difficulty that making skin colours universally available reduces your ability to create limited, focused, aesthetics, but that's a different kettle of fish.

 

[Halock 156]

7 minutes ago, TyZone said:

Where's that old Metzen drawing from 1999 that literally has North-Western Kalimdor listed with "dark elves" in his own writing?

I think this is actually an interesting comparison. Night elves also got far darker skin tones. But it unquestioningly works for them. And I think you could say two things about that.

Firstly, it works better with the idea behind them. Night elves, dark skin. No hesitation. No problem. It was rather strange that in the past they were so pale.

But perhaps more importantly, the skin tones are the same blues, reds and greens they've always had. I think that makes it seamless.

I think part of the problem with blood elves is that it doesn't look like a natural progression of their asthetic. I get exactly the same problem with gnomes. Dwarves to a lesser extent. And I say that whilst loving it on humans (who are the only other race who have the standard skin colours: I also loved the darker colours for draenei, nelves, and worgen, but they're not the same thing).

 

[Badadada 184]

RP-wise it's accepted for dwarves to hate on dark iron dwarves, the latter have a bad reputation for being sneaky, villanious and disloyal to their allies, true backstabbing rats. They also smell from booze all the time and are almost as greedy as goblins.

So I guess the moral of the story is...instead of politely asking your guildmate to change their skin tone, just hate them for it and craft a totally negative fantasy around their choice of appearance. I saw where you went after the raid yesterday Ultiverse, I know you are plotting against the order of our guild and I don't trust your black ears even a tiny bit! Oh, and I won't take a healthstone from your cookie-jar either, might be poisoned.

[Halock 156]

30 minutes ago, Rhondis said:

Eragon, as portrayed in the book, is said to have brown hair and brown eyes. Well imagine my distate and hate when they release a shoddy live action movie of Eragon, and made the main character have blue eyes and blonde hair (because whats more attractive than a character with blonde hair and blue eyes?).

Sometimes we're uncomfortable simply because something is different. We like the form because we associate good feelings with it. We are then asked to attach the same amount of feeling to something we don't associate those feelings with. Which is difficult. Not impossible, frequently fruitful, but difficult.

Sometimes we're uncomfortable not only because the new form is unfamiliar, indeed it may even be pleasant, but because it doesn't properly represent what the form embodied. 

I have a vague dislike of the Lord of the Rings movies, and, yes, it's possible to write pages about what they both did and didn't do right. But I find most of my dislike centred on Frodo. The character onscreen only rarely seems to have the power he should. 

Yet it's hard not to feel he looks great in the part.

And then sometimes, we're uncomfortable because the new form may try to add to what it is newly embodying.

… And that can be wonderful or awful or both at once.

And I will stop writing walls of text.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Halock

[Natahl 2]

It is wrong to take out your anger on the player because you are mad at the actions of Blizzard, regardless of the matter at hand, right? So even if you defend an act that can be interpreted by others as racist, the behavior is still wrong when you take that factor out of the equation. It is not one player's place to say how another can customize their toon or in part, play the game, even if its lore/emersion-breaking. A lot of people here are arguing in defense or against the potential racism behind the act when the act itself is wrong when looked at objectively.

Somehow the internet has really made us all feel that our opinions and feelings matter a lot more than they actually do, to the point where we have enough conviction to attempt to control someone else over arbitrary matters. If this applies to you perhaps you should learn self-control and be a bit more introspective about your feelings before you act out.

[Starym 3,800]

8 minutes ago, Natahl said:

Somehow the internet has really made us all feel that our opinions and feelings matter a lot more than they actually do, to the point where we have enough conviction to attempt to control someone else over arbitrary matters. If this applies to you perhaps you should learn self-control and be a bit more introspective about your feelings before you act out.

This is one of the truer things said... ever. I'd just add that it isn't "somehow", it's simply because any insane person with a nutty thought can find at least 5 others on the internet that will agree with them = clearly they must be right and others are just "sheep" etc.

[durdyenglish 298]

6 hours ago, Halock said:

This isn't understanding everything. I say that not to contradict you, certainly not to be 'obtuse', and definitely not purely on the basis of 'lore', but to add to you, I hope. You have to dig a little deeper, I believe.

I'm pretty confident in saying the dude indeed acted poorly. Making a big deal out of something small (and you're quite right, it is small) is foolish to begin with. Making a big deal out of something you know people are particularly, no doubt understandably, yet frequently ridiculously, sensitive about is very foolish.

But we do no good by dismissing the complaint entirely. To foster good relations we have to foster good understanding. 

Warcraft cannot be anything at any time. That is, I say with humour rather than abuse, ridiculous.

Technically, yes, tomorrow they could write Darth Vader in as the end boss of Shadowlands. That would be canon. But it would not be Warcraft. It would be Star Wars. 

They could, tomorrow, in all but name change it into World of Teaparties.  It would be canon that Sylvanas and Anduin have sippy-tea with Mr Snuggles. But if they did they might as well change the name -- it wouldn't be Warcraft.

And those are silly, extreme, examples. And arguably sippy-tea with Mr Snuggles is a step up in writing quality. But Warcraft is definable. The limits of it are endlessly arguable and very malleable, of course -- but if they didn't exist we wouldn't be able to call Warcraft 'Warcraft'. 

One of those limits is that blood elves are pale. Blood elves' image up until this point was 100% consistent: they are pale. This isn't just cosmetic, either. They are also haughty, aristocratic, arrogant, magical, slim, quick, elvish and isolated. Paleness fits into and compliments all of those in different ways and extents.

And I say that, again, without contradicting you. I think the guy was foolish. I think he acted like a git. I think the addition of more skin colours is probably on the whole a good thing. I don't think it's impossible to find ways dark-skinned blood elves could represent the same, or different, things as pale ones. I think it's perfectly possible to not care about those things and for it be chosen for entirely cosmetic, emotional or representative reasons. I think Warcraft's lore, setting and aesthetics are very malleable.  You do you, dark-skinned blood elf.

But I can also understand why the dude doesn't like them. I think we all should. Perhaps the change is a net gain. Assume it is! But nothing comes without downsides. And one of the downsides of darkskinned blood elves being available is that their aesthetic, and arguably the idea of them, is diluted.

Perhaps in the long run it will enhance them. Perhaps it won't affect them. Perhaps this is mostly people being sensitive about people being sensitive.

But all things have costs. 

Obviously I'm not talking about making Darth Vader the main villain, but nice strawman you've constructed here.

[durdyenglish 298]

6 hours ago, TyZone said:

Shame on the Officer/Guild Authority even humoring such a claim. If it was my guild I'd boot the guy with the problem with skin color. It's much more representative of their issues outside of WoW.

This is exactly what I'm saying. I don't care what arguments are put forth really, I've seen enough racism in my life to know that when someone takes an issue with dark skin color, it's always about racism. 

Worse off, when other people tell them that the stance they are taking is dubious, they double down on it. They come up with all sorts of well-worded strawman whataboutist arguments that are all clever enough for some and all woefully transparent to others.

Spitting on an orc if you're a human is not the same as spitting on an player character because they chose to have a dark skin color. One is keeping with the tradition of the game, in the context of the narrative - the other is taking a purposeful stance against a skin color simply because it exists in the game. They aren't spitting on the elves because dark skinned elves are reviled in the lore, they're spitting on the elves because they, in real life, personally don't like dark skin color options.

I don't know how else to explain this to you. If you don't see why people can/should interpret this as racist, and you're unwilling to make any sort of adjustment in light of that, you're being deliberately obstinate and we have to ask: why?

[Aernath 173]

I loved the general civilized argument tone going on here, let's keep this up. Remember, we do not have to think the same or agree about everything, but we have to respect eachother so we can be able to listen and understand eachother's reasonings. 

Personally, I also think it's a bit out of context to expect a player to change their appearance detail since it does not affect their performance in the guild even at the lowest level. So, it can be talked about (like we do here) but not to be asked for. 

And on the detail that it being dark skin turned to lighter makes it an extra sensitive subject considering the real life implications. That is exactly why it resembles racism in the first place. So, knowing that, maybe those are not really the like-minded players to play with in the first place and they may not even be suitable for a community environment like WoW's playerbase, but thankfully that mostly (and eventually) comes out with an uncalculated General/Trade Chat line and those people eat the perma-ban hammer. So, I'm not totally worried about that either. 

I would personally suggest this player to just move away, keep enjoying the game as however you like your character to be, that's the intended game design principle of WoW anyways, that's why we now have this many customization options and probably a lot more are on the way, which will make a lot more people happy and a little few a lot more mad ;> 

[Ragingwolf 310]

I have a better solution....remove the player from the Guild with the complaint over other Guildies characters.  Specially if they are spamming officer after officer like a 'Karen' at a grocery store wanting to 'speak to a manager' over something so stupid.  

[solitha 84]

Man, this discussion is such an incredible display of my college courses on discrimination in action.

One thing to keep in mind here. The bothered person did not talk to the person by whom he was bothered. If it was just about breaking his immersion or whatever, fine... explain that to the player. Have a little chat. If they don't change, get over it, as it's not your game and you don't make the rules.

Instead, they chose to take their complaint to the guild officers. Why would you do that? Because you hope to bring authority to your side and that the issue gets presented to the other person with an inherent threat attached to non-compliance. And the poster caught that threat, shown by their question if they'd get gkicked for not doing as asked.

But here's a few simple facts. Elves descended from trolls. All elves are related, separated primarily by culture, not biology. And most importantly, elves are long-lived. Many elves alive today were around for the sundering. We're not talking about the evolutionary pace of human change over 10,000 years, although even that would be small in terms of major changes like skin color. We're talking about a pace so slow that high/blood elves being so visually distinct is more immersion-breaking than any carryover in skin color. It's only been like three, four generations.

[Shadowjaq 7]

I haven't been a guild master for a very long time, but if this had happened to me when I was...I'd have told this guy I had no problem with dark skinned elves and the other member didn't have to change their skin tone. And then booted him.

The story here isn't the player with a problem-it's the guild master who approached someone in this guild about this and doesn't seem to care one of his guildies is going around spitting on people in game. You're a class act, pal. I'd like to hope everyone decent in this guild has already headed for the exits, but I know WoW all too well. 

[FireLordJohn 91]

23 hours ago, Rhondis said:

I agree with this 100%. When lore is established people treat it like history, and when that history is built upon and expanded you get a fan base that fully invests in it and learn more about it. Its justifiable when that history is all of sudden rewritten with little to now reasons other than to please a majority of people. 

For example, as a kid I was deep into the Eragon books. I read each and everyone one of them and fully invested myself into the characters and how they appeared, talked, acted, etc. Eragon, as portrayed in the book, is said to have brown hair and brown eyes. Well imagine my distate and hate when they release a shoddy live action movie of Eragon, and made the main character have blue eyes and blonde hair (because whats more attractive than a character with blonde hair and blue eyes?). I dont hate the actor per se, but the producers who decided to go against the book, even if its minor. This is literally the same scenario, except the individual is in the wrong for their actions. 

We don't speak of the heresy that is the Eragon film.