Hunter Class

[Damien 1,514]

This thread is for comments about our Hunter class overview for TBC Classic.

[Wyr3d 0]

I have to say, I kinda disagree with your assessment on Marksman Hunter, coz it doesn't play that way:

• Marksmanship is a range-DPS specialization that focuses on maximizing your own damage from ranged attacks. Marksmanship also brings the aura Trueshot Aura.

Not essentially, Marksman play is still in combination with the pet, especially if you have the right talent setup. It's true that most of the damage switches to the player, rather than the pet - but that damage comes in crits, not for every shot. The pet (especially boar with it's Charge ability) can still hold aggro well if you stick to the plan:

Open with a macro's Aimed Shot + pet attack, tap a suitable sting (usually Serpent, but pick others dependant on the mob) for a little extra oomph, and then spam Steady Shot (lvl 62) after each auto-shot. If you talented into Concussive Barrage - which you should have, even though it's not on your guide - then no standard mob will survive to reach the player, even if it breaks pet aggro. Ocassionally you may need to use Concussive Shot, but the talent procs often enough.

Even if by some miracle (or if you're fighting elites solo for some reason) that a mob survives to melee range, a quickly prepared Ice Trap, or just a simply Wingclip spam can get you back into ranged to finish it off.

Marksmanship is the least viable Hunter spec in PvE. While Beast Mastery tops meters, Marksmanship is a bit lacking. Most of the MM talents focus on making you do slightly more damage yourself, while several talents only focus on Multi-Shot damage. Unfortunately the talent tree just does not synergize well with your damage profile. MM Hunters do bring Trueshot Aura however, which gives them a nice buff for melee groups. PvP is where Marksmanship truly shines though. Marksmanship is a high-tier spec in 2v2 arena, as Viper Sting is extremely good at draining Mana and running teams down. MM Hunters are still strong in other types of PvP as well, but 2v2 arena is where they shine. MM Hunters offer significantly better small-window burst, control, and sustain than other specs.

Again, I disagree here - I'd say "most viable" in terms of PVE for faster leveling. A properly talented char will drop mobs much faster than the other specs, though until Steady Shot is obtained, it will drain a lot of mana doing so. Not so much to make a difference, since other spec still have to rest as often, just Marksman will likely need a higher grade of mana restore than other specs.

You state the talent tree "does not synergise well with your damage profile" but this isn't entirely true either. I think the issue here is that your stat priorities undervalue Crit for the spec. Crit is in much more demand for Marksman that you have it set at. Although it's no longer in the leveling section, for a boosted char you have priorites for Marksman as:

Hit 9% > ArmPen > Agil > AttPwr > Crit

At the very least I'd have Crit above AttPwr, so I feel it should be more like:

Hit 9% > ArmPen > Agil > Crit > AttPwr

Like you mentioned, a Marsman will pull aggro from the pet more often, so it's important that the char can burn down those mobs faster, and a higher crit is the best way to do this - especially since the Marksman tree is designed in a way that prioritises this potential. This is also why the talent Concussive Barrage is essential in my opinion. It's that extra security in taking down the mob before it reaches "the dead zone" (although in TBC, "the dead zone" had all but been removed, and is essentially just "melee range")

With regards to "several talents only focus on multi-shot" - I only see Barrage and Improved Barrage, a total of 6 points - and that's more of personal choice that a necessity. Besides, since Concussive Barrage is in the same row, you should be prioritising that anyway and not wasting points on those situational talents.

With regards to Trueshot Aura - remember that this also affects your pet's melee attpwr, so it's just as great for solo as for party.

I can't say much about the PVP aspect of Marksman, since I only PVP fools who attempt to PVP me in the open world, but I'd still agree that Marksman would likely shine in Arena, since it's pretty sweet in general. 

That said, I do hope you take another look at your Marksman leveling guide, and especially the Talent tree which is not optimised for leveling despite it's claims. Please see the following link for a talent tree that actually is optimised for leveling marksman, by a player leveling marksman in TBC, after leveling BM in Classic and finding Marksman outshines BM by far:

https://tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/hunter/502030005-55002012553102531051

Start with 1 point in Concussive Shot, before switching to max out the the chosen talents in BM tree, then return to Marksman. It's pretty intuitive which skills to take as you progress from there, as you'll see where you need to improve as you level. Although there's no leveling involved, Boosted chars would also greatly benefit from the above 

That said, as for my stats priorities add-on, for the interim I will be deferring to Icy Veins as standard, even though I disagree with the advice given. Once again, hope you take this comment to heart, and re-evaluate your assessment on Marksman Hunters for TBC



Laters

Edited August 26, 2021 by Wyr3d
I type too fast for spelling to keep up :P

[Impakt 25]

On 6/8/2021 at 6:14 AM, Wyr3d said:

I have to say, I kinda disagree with your assessment on Marksman Hunter, coz it doesn't play that way:

• Marksmanship is a range-DPS specialization that focuses on maximizing your own damage from ranged attacks. Marksmanship also brings the aura Trueshot Aura.

Not essentially, Marksman play is still in combination with the pet, especially if you have the right talent setup. It's true that most of the damage switches to the player, rather than the pet - but that damage comes in crits, not for every shot. The pet (especially boar with it's Charge ability) can still hold aggro well if you stick to the plan:

Open with a macro's Aimed Shot + pet attack, tap a suitable sting (usually Serpent, but pick others dependant on the mob) for a little extra oomph, and then spam Steady Shot (lvl 62) after each auto-shot. If you talented into Concussive Barrage - which you should have, even though it's not on your guide - then no standard mob will survive to reach the player, even if it breaks pet aggro. Ocassionally you may need to use Concussive Shot, but the talent procs often enough.

Even if by some miracle (or if you're fighting elites solo for some reason) that a mob survives to melee range, a quickly prepared Ice Trap, or just a simply Wingclip spam can get you back into ranged to finish it off.

Marksmanship is the least viable Hunter spec in PvE. While Beast Mastery tops meters, Marksmanship is a bit lacking. Most of the MM talents focus on making you do slightly more damage yourself, while several talents only focus on Multi-Shot damage. Unfortunately the talent tree just does not synergize well with your damage profile. MM Hunters do bring Trueshot Aura however, which gives them a nice buff for melee groups. PvP is where Marksmanship truly shines though. Marksmanship is a high-tier spec in 2v2 arena, as Viper Sting is extremely good at draining Mana and running teams down. MM Hunters are still strong in other types of PvP as well, but 2v2 arena is where they shine. MM Hunters offer significantly better small-window burst, control, and sustain than other specs.

Again, I disagree here - I'd say "most viable" in terms of PVE for faster leveling. A properly talented char will drop mobs much faster than the other specs, though until Steady Shot is obtained, it will drain a lot of mana doing so. Not so much to make a difference, since other spec still have to rest as often, just Marksman will likely need a higher grade of mana restore than other specs.

You state the talent tree "does not synergise well with your damage profile" but this isn't entirely true either. I think the issue here is that your stat priorities undervalue Crit for the spec. Crit is in much more demand for Marksman that you have it set at. Although it's no longer in the leveling section, for a boosted char you have priorites for Marksman as:

Hit 9% > ArmPen > Agil > AttPwr > Crit

At the very least I'd have Crit above AttPwr, but to be honest I feel it should be more like:

Hit 9% > ArmPen > Crit > Agil > AttPwr

Like you mentioned, a Marsman will pull aggro from the pet more often, so it's important that the char can burn down those mobs faster, and a higher crit is the best way to do this - especially since the Marksman tree is designed in a way that prioritises this potential. This is also why the talent Concussive Barrage is essential in my opinion. It's that extra security in taking down the mob before it reaches "the dead zone" (although in TBC, "the dead zone" had all but been removed, and is essentially just "melee range")

With regards to "several talents only focus on multi-shot" - I only see Barrage and Improved Barrage, a total of 6 points - and that's more of personal choice that a necessity. Besides, since Concussive Barrage is in the same row, you should be prioritising that anyway and not wasting points on those situational talents.

With regards to Trueshot Aura - remember that this also affects your pet's melee attpwr, so it's just as great for solo as for party.

I can't say much about the PVP aspect of Marksman, since I only PVP fools who attempt to PVP me in the open world, but I'd still agree that Marksman would likely shine in Arena, since it's pretty sweet in general. 

That said, I do hope you take another look at your Marksman leveling guide, and especially the Talent tree which is not optimised for leveling despite it's claims. Please see the following link for a talent tree that actually is optimised for leveling marksman, by a player leveling marksman in TBC, after leveling BM in Classic and finding Marksman outshines BM by far:

https://tbc.wowhead.com/talent-calc/hunter/502030005-55002012553102531051

Start with 1 point in Concussive Shot, before switching to max out the the chosen talents in BM tree, then return to Marksman. It's pretty intuitive which skills to take as you progress from there, as you'll see where you need to improve as you level. Although there's no leveling involved, Boosted chars would also greatly benefit from the above 

That said, as for my stats priorities add-on, for the interim I will be deferring to Icy Veins as standard, even though I disagree with the advice given. Once again, hope you take this comment to heart, and re-evaluate your assessment on Marksman Hunters for TBC



Laters

It seems like most of your points are based around MM while leveling. First, the leveling guide is primarily focused on 60-70, so Steady Shot is available for the majority of that period. 

The biggest fundamental difference between us would almost certainly be with Improved Concussive Shot however. While I concede it's a strong PvP talent, I would take efficiency 9/10 times for leveling, with the 1/10 only if I decide that I want to constantly engage in world PvP. With Feign Death and Disengage, Concussive Shot is just not a necessity at keeping mobs away from you since they should always be on your pet anyways. Even if you would use it for that if you didn't want to Feign, I do not like RNG-based talents that I can't rely on, and 4/5 times you are just getting the slow anyways. 

This brings back to why I rate MM the worst out of the specs, which is because of the later talents. Going into BM or Survival does not preclude you from picking up Aimed Shot while leveling. The later MM talents are underwhelming compared to both other specs, and 6 late-tier points is a significant portion of the tree when you are only talking about Multi-Shot. 

I do agree that MM is not terrible by any means, but it is overshadowed by the other 2 specs. Your leveling speed and overall efficiency will be better as Beast Mastery by far, which is why it's the recommended leveling spec. 

Finally, your assessment of crit as being the highest priority stat is far off. The idea that MM needs crit to burst down mobs faster is nice, but realistically your crit is going to be incredibly low while leveling anyways, and you're talking about a max of 15-20%. It's not reliable, and even with crits you aren't going to be 2-shotting mobs in Outlands without full t3. 

[Wyr3d 0]

Quote

It seems like most of your points are based around MM while leveling. First, the leveling guide is primarily focused on 60-70, so Steady Shot is available for the majority of that period. 

 

Well, yeah. I was leveling my char at the time, after all. I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention Steady Shot is available through most of the 60-70 though - you get it at 62. I mean, using Steady Shot is pretty much the mainstream of the Marskman playstyle.

 

Quote

The biggest fundamental difference between us would almost certainly be with Improved Concussive Shot however.

 

In conjuction with Concussive Barrage, yeah sure. You complain about the RNG of Improved Concussive Shot's proc, but at 20% it's gonna proc far more often than most other proc based talents, and by that logic, it would be better to take Endurance Training over Improved Aspect of the Hawk (which it is not, unless you're gonna be rocking Viper 100%)  Since a lot of recommended talents are based on a percentile proc chance, I don't buy RNG as valid reason to exclude this one here.

Now I do play on a PVP server, and that is a bonus for Improved Concussive Shot, but mostly I use this skill for when aggro breaks (and this can happen regardless of spec if you crit big) from the pet to slow the mob down on it's approach. A proc means that it'sdefinately gonna die before it reaches my char, but Concussive Barrage also comes into play.

 

Quote

This brings back to why I rate MM the worst out of the specs, which is because of the later talents. Going into BM or Survival does not preclude you from picking up Aimed Shot while leveling. The later MM talents are underwhelming compared to both other specs, and 6 late-tier points is a significant portion of the tree when you are only talking about Multi-Shot. 

 

So first off, it's your suggestion that Multi-shot talents be taken by a Marksman, not mine so I dunno why you chose to highlight this point as being reason for classifying Marksman talents as "worst out of the specs" - I suggested not wasting points on those talents. For a viable PVE Marksman hunter those points are far better spent in talents like Concussive Barrage, and Improved Stings.
 

Quote

Finally, your assessment of crit as being the highest priority stat is far off. The idea that MM needs crit to burst down mobs faster is nice, but realistically your crit is going to be incredibly low while leveling anyways, and you're talking about a max of 15-20%. It's not reliable, and even with crits you aren't going to be 2-shotting mobs in Outlands without full t3

Care to explain further why crit isn't a high priority? No one said anything about 2-shotting mobs, but the faster they die, the faster you move on to the next one, and level faster. I dont' see how leveling as BM is "more effecient" when most of the time your pet does the work, while you sit back and auto-shot. BM leveling is not faster - safer, sure but certainly not faster. 

Well, we can always agree to differ I suppose, but I finished leveling my char as Marksman, and I found it - even on a PVP server - to be fast, fun and fantastic 😛 Ganking slowed me down a bit, but I imagine on a no PVP server it would give the other specs a run for their money, if not leave them in the dust XD

EDIT

Just wanted to add here that I put both your reccomended, and my own in the addon. I have your version set as the default build for Marksman, and mine as a "Charge Marksman" as it's possible this build might not be as valuable for non-boar hunters (given Boar has Charge, giving it an initial stun, and higher aggro pull).

In any case, let me reiterate the stat priorities for this build:

Charge Marksman:  Hit 9% > ArmPen > Agil > Crit > AttPwr

Edited November 16, 2021 by Wyr3d
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