Choosing a PvE Rogue Spec

[Ghuerilla 2]

Hey guys,

 

I've gotten a little bit bored for now of my 572 warrior and 564 lock, which I will probably not be using much until WoD releases, and I have levelled some other classes that I'd like to try out for fun.

 

My rogue hit 90 about two or three months ago and I believe it is in worse-than-boosted-90 gear at the moment. What spec should I choose to learn and focus on if I plan to quickly work towards and sit comfortably in the 550-560 range for quite awhile? I've heard that assassination and combat are both viable, but that it also supposedly depends a lot on the speed of weapons which I have not been able to find too much information about.

 

If anyone could provide me with some quick, basic information about an optimal one-size-fits-all spec for SoO and about weapon speeds I would be very grateful!

[Krushinator 49]

The basic rogue evolution is as follows. At a low item level, I would start with Assassination spec. It is the easiest to master, and gives you a good grounding in rotational abilities that carry into other specs. Once you pick up a strong (540+) slow mainhand weapon and an Assurance of Consequence of any iL, Combat spec is something you'll want to learn. There are several fights throughout SoO where the cleave is very useful. Once your gear starts entering heroic range, Subtlety spec has the highest potential single target damage. It is the hardest spec to master, but if you put the time into LFR, Flex or even target dummies to learn it you will be better off. At that point you'll flop between Combat and Subtlety for bosses, although most rogues just stay Combat the whole time.

For weapon requirements, you need two daggers for Assassination and Subtlety. For Combat a slow mainhand (sword or axe or mace or fist) is required, and the offhand could be another slow weapon or a dagger.

In your case, if you're just looking to have an alt to have fun with, you could jump right into Combat once you have one slow weapon. You won't be optimal, but I sense that isn't a big deal for you. I'm a big proponent of rogues learning all of their specs, but I understand that is a lot of time to pour into an alt.

The Combat spec class guide here on Icy Veins will give you a solid grounding on the spec. If you want more detailed ways to evaluate your performance you can check out my DIY Rogue Evaluation sticky post, or you can post more questions here.

[Ghuerilla 2]

Just what I was looking for, very useful information; thanks a bunch!

[Ghuerilla 2]

One question: For assassination, Crimson Tempest is not mentioned once in the entire guide; does it have any value or is it more worth it to just stick to the rotation in the guide?

[Krushinator 49]

Crimson Tempest does not process Venomous Wounds, making Rupture spreading a better strategy for mass AoE. Fan of Knives spam leaves you very starved for energy unless you have multiple enemies suffering Rupture damage.

[Lunatia 2]

Question to Krushinator concerning the statement that "Assassination and Subtlety require two daggers".

 

Does Subtlety really require two daggers and what is the advantage of a dagger in your offhand? I am using a slower offhand because I only own one heroic dagger and I feel like I'm doing quite well with it. Is there any mechanical reason to prefer a dagger in your offhand?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Lunatia

[Hybrys 199]

I've been looking into exactly that for a long time.  As far as I can tell, there's no real consensus, but people believe that a fast OH procs more poisons.

 

iirc, ShadowCraft shows the difference between same-stat and same item level fast and slow weapons to be about 1.5%.  I'd be comfortable using a slow OH as long as it was a higher ilvl than any fast OH you have.

[Krushinator 49]

@Lunatia You are correct about Subtlety, the difference between slow and fast offhand is negligible and both configurations are viable. I was falling back on old tenants and forgot to consider the new freedom in weapon requirements.

 

I would use two daggers for Subtlety purely because it seems more proper to me from an aesthetic perspective, but numbers wise you should go with the highest iL available for your offhand (after your best weapon is equipped in the main hand of course).

[Belicosa 11]

In my experience, the best you can get in each hand works best for combat. You no longer have to spend endless fruitless hours chasing swords and maces if you have a couple of good daggers. This seems to have happened somewhere down the patch trail in MoP.

 

Besides, Combat is more fun that driving a bus full of lawyers and politicians off of a steep cliff. You might (probably) die if you keep blade flurry up on trash and when you pop Killing Spree, but it's a hell of a ride until you hit the bottom.

 

That said, stack the f*** out of haste so you can keep blade flurry up most of the time, only turning it off for single-boss no-add fights (Malkorok). And make friends with the druid or lock that can battle rez you if the tanks are solid.

[Hybrys 199]

In my experience, the best you can get in each hand works best for combat. You no longer have to spend endless fruitless hours chasing swords and maces if you have a couple of good daggers. This seems to have happened somewhere down the patch trail in MoP.

 

Besides, Combat is more fun that driving a bus full of lawyers and politicians off of a steep cliff. You might (probably) die if you keep blade flurry up on trash and when you pop Killing Spree, but it's a hell of a ride until you hit the bottom.

 

That said, stack the f*** out of haste so you can keep blade flurry up most of the time, only turning it off for single-boss no-add fights (Malkorok). And make friends with the druid or lock that can battle rez you if the tanks are solid.

Combat is actually still based around weapon speed, and requires a slow main hand to be optimal.  This is because Revealing Strike and Sinister Strike are still based around main hand weapon damage, and don't have Dagger modifiers to bring them up to par (such as the one for Ambush)

[Lunatia 2]

I've got a short addition to Hybrys's post. Sometimes it's nice to underline some claims with actual simulations or even better: ingame experience. This is in no way meant to be offensive, Hybrys - I know you'd put in the effort if you had the time :D

 

I've been playing Assassination for the first two months of my rogue career since I didn't get my fingers on a half-decent 2.6 mainhand. As we hit a brick wall in normal raiding on Spoils, my raid leader asked me to go combat rogue because of the better cleave it provides. My dps slightly increased and we finally killed the boss (my dps weren't the real issue in the retrospective). On the drop I received the sword. The difference of playing Combat with daggers or a slow mainhand is like night and day. My dps on spoils on the next week increased by like 10-15%.

 

For my current gear (572 ilvl), Shadowcraft sims a difference of > 30k dps (from a 360k dps basis with a slow mainhand). So the replacement of a dagger with a slow mainhand basically means a jump of 5 ilvl worth of items. As Hybrys said, the differnce mainly comes from Sinister Strike with the addition of Main Gauche as the 2nd factor. SS sims out 18k higher and MG gives another 11k bonus. Revealing Strike is some kind of a non-factor, since it's only used a couple of times to maintain the debuff on the target.

 

TL,DR: Don't you dare to use daggers on your combat rogue, that's like playing with a shitty connection.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Lunatia

[Belicosa 11]

I shall attempt to go axes then since my rogue is an orc.

[WaveFunctionP 3]

Question to Krushinator concerning the statement that "Assassination and Subtlety require two daggers".

 

Does Subtlety really require two daggers and what is the advantage of a dagger in your offhand? I am using a slower offhand because I only own one heroic dagger and I feel like I'm doing quite well with it. Is there any mechanical reason to prefer a dagger in your offhand?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Lunatia

 

Poison procs are proc per hit, so it favors a fast weapon, and there are no mitigating factors to favor a slow weapon, so dagger offhands are optimal for subtlety. When in doubt though, use shadowcraft.

Edited June 26, 2014 by WaveFunctionP