Robts has 2 Builds, Mastery over Haste and Haste over mastery

[eggfuyung 0]

Hi, I,ve been looking at the builds for Mr robot, i pay for the service and use the best in bag and upgrade parts faithfully. Here's the question, Most sites do say Haste>Mastery, but WHY would there be a build with Mastery>Haste? It would be pretty expensive to reforge at this point out of haste to try this. Is there any reason i should even try Mastery>haste? My name is my toons name in Armory, if someone wants to check out my stuff please do so, any positive helpful replies would be fantastic. 

 

Eggfuyung SV Hunter.

[Orthios 271]

Mastery pulls ahead in multi-target situations where multi-shot and serpent sting become large portions of your dps.  Haste looses a small amount of value when you can use rapid fire more with the 2pc and multi-shot spam.

[Azortharion 60]

Mastery pulls ahead in multi-target situations where multi-shot and serpent sting become large portions of your dps.  Haste looses a small amount of value when you can use rapid fire more with the 2pc and multi-shot spam.

Mastery doesn't pull "ahead" of Haste in multi-target situations, that's just misinformation based on what one can probably quickly try and gather looking at the Mastery "well our AoE is mostly elemental damage so Mastery must be > all for such fights", but that's not the case.

 

@OP, Haste > Mastery all the way, Haste doesn't lose particular value with more RF uptime.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Azortharion

[Orthios 271]

I never said mastery>haste in all such fights.  My own weights for SV are haste (to comfort, currently 25-30%) > crit > mastery=haste.  In regards to me saying haste looses value, I was in a MM mindset, as I've been playing MM recently.  With rapid fire/recup, fervor, and 25% base haste, i get ~16-17 focus/sec, which would be 12-13 per second for SV.  So with higher uptimes of RF, I don't need quite so much haste.  

[Azortharion 60]

Your weights are just kinda wrong. :(

 

If Haste is better (and you seem to agree), why not go for Haste > Mastery instead of a mix, or whatever? I know very few people who prefer less haste, it always feels better to shoot faster, and if it's better in all realistic situations (which it is) I don't see why you'd go Mastery=Haste, it's just throwing DPS away.

[Orthios 271]

Mastery for SV is a dps increase of *about* .75% per % of mastery.  My 19% mastery is a ~15% dps increase.  Haste does have a breakpoint, that is your own comfort level of focus regen.  Cobra shot will always give 22 focus, no matter how much haste you have.  The only difference would be how fast the cast time is.  It all comes down to a personal preference of how much haste is enough.  For me, that happens to be around 25-30%.  

 

Mastery for MM isn't worth crap.  For MM, my stat weights are Haste > Crit >>>>> Mastery.  I'll likely never have too much haste for MM.  

[Azortharion 60]

You realize that Haste has plenty of value beyond what you feel comfortable with, though? :S

 

It's not this subjective thing you turn it in to, it doesn't matter how you like your haste level/focus regen/cast times where they're at, past that point, Haste will still give you more DPS in all realistic situations ever.

 

And the MM stat weight at your gear level is more like standard Crit > Haste > Mastery, it is complete nonsense to ever drop Crit for Haste (Crit only dropping in value a bit once you're in Normal/WF/HC SoO gear, but still being about as powerful as Haste).

 

It just isn't subjective, it's a math's game, no matter how you like to set your weights (and power to you), it's not necessarily the right thing to do (and it isn't in this case) for anyone who really just wants to be the best they can be (like the OP). You didn't tell him to go Mastery > Haste though, so that's good and all, but just keep in mind that your personal thoughts about stat weights are not objectively correct in this case, but you seem to prefer your way of doing it and that's fine, I won't push any more for it.

[Orthios 271]

If you looked, I'm not dropping a single point of crit for haste.  My only reforge out of crit is to expertise.  With the gear I've been able to get so far, I have a higher amount of haste than crit, so I've prioritized haste over crit.  When I get more gear with varying stats on it, that's when I'll decide whether or not to prioritize haste over crit or not.

[Azortharion 60]

By prioritizing Haste over Crit you are "dropping" Crit in favor of Haste, only not directly, obviously.

 

It's irrelevant what you can get the highest # in - Haste does not gain value the more you have of it, nor does Crit.

 

Just go Crit > Haste > Mastery.

[Orthios 271]

Female dwarf is giving me a difference of 741 dps between prioritizing crit vs prioritizing haste.  That's a small enough difference that it doesn't justify redoing my reforge and gems.  

[Azortharion 60]

FemaleDwarf is pretty darn useless for anything that has to do with Haste because of shot shifting, which is very, very significant for Marksmanship in particular.

 

https://i.imgur.com/BRKFtsF.png in SimCraft (and trust me, I know how to properly use these tools..).

 

In your world, probably not worth changing everything for since you don't have your legendary cloak enchanted, belt buckled, etc etc.

 

Interestingly though, fixing your stat priority would still be a bigger DPS increase than actually enchanting your gear: https://imgur.com/DsMJWE4

Edited June 21, 2014 by Azortharion

[Orthios 271]

Well, feel free to set up an amr with your weights, pm me if you want my best in bags items.

[Azortharion 60]

Haven't really gone in depth with MM stat weights (relative to Agility), but that's irrelevant because the "point" of it is that Crit is > Haste and Haste > Mastery.

[Brya 3]

The things I miss while doing carpentry for 2 days -_-'

 

Azor you are right in that at Orthios' Item level Crit worth more than haste for his marksmanship build, but with you being primarily focused on Beast mastery and Survival how much time have you had to play the spec?

 

*Anything said here on is assuming Aim shot as the only focus dump.

 

Although in theory he would gain damage on paper, the spec is not very fluid until you surpass 11k haste and the timing of passive focus regen doesnt align perfectly for aimed shot until ~12.5k(+100-1k rating for lag) range. The second 'breakpoint' was the level that Conjor and most marksman hunters(the few that there are) have ideally aimed for and have needed to make the spec be fluid and enjoyable. Running below those levels is a very miserable experience and is one of the reasons (outside of subpar damage until recently) that the spec has had such a small playerbase. 

 

Its also worth mentioning that from what I've gathered from my time here, Orthios is the type of player that is knowledgeable of his class, wishes to play well, but also be able to enjoy playing the spec he's currently playing. Even if it means a marginal dps loss for a much more fluid play.

 

Also Im curious about your Statement a few posts up about Crit tapering off:

 

And the MM stat weight at your gear level is more like standard Crit > Haste > Mastery, it is complete nonsense to ever drop Crit for Haste (Crit only dropping in value a bit once you're in Normal/WF/HC SoO gear, but still being about as powerful as Haste).

 

 

Is the statement you said here based off your own calculations for marksmanship or off of simcraft? My own testing(live and sims) and those of other MM hunters show crit gaining in value and haste tappering off after the 12.5k haste level because of piercing shots and autoshot being reset by aimed shot(yup its still there even though they removed SS's in wrath).

 

I've found that Marksmanship works very similar to Frost mage with it having a different stat priority based on Itemlevel and which haste breakpoint you can easily reach. If I remember correctly there was a breakpoint where at ~568 a Crit>Mastery>haste build was superior while using Arcane shot as your focus dump(GG wild quiver).

[Azortharion 60]

I cannot prove something subjective like MM being miserable without X amount of haste, honestly, I can just tell you what will grant you the highest numbers regardles of how it feels to play.

 

If anything, Haste is much more difficult to make 100% use of than Crit because it requires you to keep your APM/CPM/global count as high as possible and not skipping any globals.

 

All I can show you is this:

 

http://i.imgur.com/Lebr0yP.png - results between setups in fully upgraded LFR gear, with legendary cloak, Haromm's + AoC, basically most people. 220s fight length with 20% variation for 2:56 - 4:24 fight lengths.

 

http://i.imgur.com/33BdtAy.png - same thing, but with 588 iLvl BiS gear.

 

Crit = Haste > Mastery is above all, no matter if you're BiS or 548 iLvl, and I doubt that it'll change between 548 - 588 to something else.

 

This is not using 4pc, which would only reduce Haste's value further. Aimed Shot focus dump.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Azortharion