WOD BETA DISCUSSION w/SCREENSHOTS

[Zagam 1,982]

Looks like they literally add 14 to the damage.  That seems like an omission from the original tooltip since they all have a base number with a scaling coefficient.  My guess is no change was made and it was a tooltip correction.

[Soulzar 42]

I got to messing around with the Life Pact glyph a bit.  Its very nice for a spec like demo that chews through its mana quickly, however with it replacing life tap you are boned when you finally oom.  It will be perfect for shorter burn fights as it will remove the need to spend any globals on life tap.  Actually seem to have generous base combat mana regen.

 

For Destro which does not have life tap to lose as a trade off, it is actually quite damn good.  I had found at least with this test gear that Destro was mana capping a few seconds before the darksoul ember dump.  If we get into a situation where we do get fel flame back in a mana expensive form or need to spam around RoF's during movement, this glyph will allow that without going oom.  The mana reductuction cost is always there regardless of if you are above 75% with the life drain active or not.

[gahhda 95]

Soul fire wasn't compensated when they removed the MC perk, so it's dogshit right now. Because of this, ToC is a better use of DF in basically every case conceivable. This also leads to demonbolt being the primary dump during DS, regardless of stacks, using soul fire out of meta to get back up to cap in time for the next 1 minute DB cycle.

 

Spreadsheet explaining why: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rJe2JnY_lQZ_tLJLDSYL_gniNLW4_vWW1GXeC7_gE5A/edit#gid=0

 

Simply put, if you think it's worth using at 2 stacks, then at 3 it only loses 16% efficiency. Each additional stack added reduces the efficiency lost from the previous stack. This, in combination with the fact that a LARGE amount of our damage comes from dark soul, creates a massive burst cycle of spamming out demonbolts for huge damage in the 10 second window, and then generating tons of fury.

 

 

Side note - My demonbolt apl is slightly bad, I really can't figure out how to make it work nicely with AD in the sim right now, so it's doing some weird shit occasionally, resulting in high # of stacks due to timers. That being said, it's only ~3.5% behind my cataclysm APL right now.

 

Holding off any form of judgement until the first #s pass this week.

Edited August 14, 2014 by gahhda

[gahhda 95]

Looks like they literally add 14 to the damage.  That seems like an omission from the original tooltip since they all have a base number with a scaling coefficient.  My guess is no change was made and it was a tooltip correction.

 

Many aoe spells have been slightly neglected.

[gahhda 95]

Cataclysm does not cost any fury, but the dooms it applies do.  So it really does not cost anything as you would be spending that fury on doom regardless however now do not need to allocate a global to it.

 

That said, its been posted in the official Blizz Theorycrafting thread that it is a bug and it is not intended that those dooms cost fury.  Currently, I think the Fury cost on the Dooms is the only thing keeping it from being 100% OP.  Free AoE dooms would be a talent in its own, never mind the dmg from Cataclysm....

 

Simc functions the way devs tell us things should, not by in game results. Cata is still only ~3.5% of demonbolt with my local APL, even with it basically giving a free 60 df.

 

I had some friends do some testing for me on the more ST oriented bosses on beta, and they were right behind cataclysm using demonbolt, it seems promising. This isn't how the devs intend for us to use the spell, however. I think it's a better mechanic in this form than just 'hit 2 times every 1 minute.' I like that it can actually be a gain to spam large stacks on a ST by reacting to buffs and mechanics. I like having control over my burst output outside of DS for add mechanics etc.

 

At this point, it's useless comparing all this shit though. With the #s pass coming soon, things are subject to change greatly. I don't see how they can balance cataclysm for demo without changing how it interacts with meta, but we'll see.

Edited August 14, 2014 by gahhda

[Liquidsteel 279]

I mentioned this over on the MMO-C thread but wanted to reiterate it here.

 

With just how much movement there is in many of these fights, there were times last week where I felt a bit Fury starved. After seeing the simc data I switched to Soul Fire strictly in caster form and used ToC as my main Fury dump.

 

The results were pretty amazing. 1) I did shit loads of damage, and 2) I felt super fucking mobile using ToC all the time. Hectic periods of movement are also helped out via the hunter aspect so you can ping off 4-5 soul fires and jump back to ToCing for another 10 seconds if you need.

 

I was a bit iffy over Warlocks until then but feeling really good now. I think Cataclysm needs a good tuning but I'm looking forward to using Demonbolt a bit more. I did want to try it out on Blackhand but the cooldown didn't line up well with the heavy movement phases, and we only made it to phase 2 a couple of times.

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LQab7H2D9dV8nGpm#type=damage-done

Edited August 14, 2014 by Liquidsteel

[gahhda 95]

I mentioned this over on the MMO-C thread but wanted to reiterate it here.

 

With just how much movement there is in many of these fights, there were times last week where I felt a bit Fury starved. After seeing the simc data I switched to Soul Fire strictly in caster form and used ToC as my main Fury dump.

 

The results were pretty amazing. 1) I did shit loads of damage, and 2) I felt super fucking mobile using ToC all the time. Hectic periods of movement are also helped out via the hunter aspect so you can ping off 4-5 soul fires and jump back to ToCing for another 10 seconds if you need.

 

I was a bit iffy over Warlocks until then but feeling really good now. I think Cataclysm needs a good tuning but I'm looking forward to using Demonbolt a bit more. I did want to try it out on Blackhand but the cooldown didn't line up well with the heavy movement phases, and we only made it to phase 2 a couple of times.

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LQab7H2D9dV8nGpm#type=damage-done

 

I think most people would be interested to find that even on live, using ToC in meta instead of soul fire really isn't a huge dps loss. At worst it's a slight loss, at best it makes your movement incredibly powerful.

 

Once the tuning pass comes through, I'll take a more in-depth look at the age old ToC vs SF debate!

[Soulzar 42]

I think most people would be interested to find that even on live, using ToC in meta instead of soul fire really isn't a huge dps loss. At worst it's a slight loss, at best it makes your movement incredibly powerful.

 

Once the tuning pass comes through, I'll take a more in-depth look at the age old ToC vs SF debate!

 

I thought one of the main supporters for SF in meta was not so much the dmg differential as it was its higher fury/cast time cost.  The faster you could convert fury to dmg, the more time you had per fight to generate fury.

 

With Demon Bolt being a new and faster way to convert fury to dmg, this shifts Soul Fire out to being the better way to generate fury instead of spending it.

 

Personally, if Haste is going to stay a dog stat in comparison.. I wont be upset to have the faster casting Soul fire playing a fury generator role.

 

I am still not super sold on the stacking mechanic of the spell because it just doesn't feel like its doing a lot of dmg even if the fury/dmg ratio is there...  I honestly think it should always crit.  I was doing some testing at 10 stacks.. and spending 880 fury for a ~90k hit was depressing.

[Soulzar 42]

I am starting to think that Imps not spawning from Doom crits is not a bug, but that they have it turned off purposely.  

 

I am seeing ~40%-45% crit on my dooms, and with the ability to seamlessly AoE apply doom with Cataclysm, multi target sustained is in range of Destro!.  As example, in a 3-4 minute test on 5 dummies, I should have spawned over 40 imps from my doom crits.  40!!

 

Thinking back to MoP.. the times we were able to tab around dooms with UVLS and basically stay in meta the whole time chain casting Soul fire.  Imagine if we had Demon Bolt then?....Dumping a full fury bar every 15 seconds lol

 

If we see dmg tuning happen and this bug is not fixed... we'll either never see it fixed or we will be VERY strong once its working again.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Soulzar

[Orthios 271]

Was thinking about the seating flames talent here recently and it occurred to me that if someone were to be leveling a new lock, this talent wouldn't do anything for them for awhile. This makes it less desireable for leveling even though it looks really strong for max level. The only other talent I've seen that doesn't do anything for the player when they choose it is chi brew for MW monks, though they can still utilize the chi gen from it. Locks on the other hand are stuck with a useless talent for 27 levels.

[RethulUrNo 2]

Was thinking about the seating flames talent here recently and it occurred to me that if someone were to be leveling a new lock, this talent wouldn't do anything for them for awhile. This makes it less desireable for leveling even though it looks really strong for max level. The only other talent I've seen that doesn't do anything for the player when they choose it is chi brew for MW monks, though they can still utilize the chi gen from it. Locks on the other hand are stuck with a useless talent for 27 levels.

 

Can't dig up the tweet, but Celestalon said that they're refining what level we get certain abilities going into WoD.  I think the context of the question was about Ember Tap and Searing Flames as well.

 

EDIT: 8/18 datamining has this change.

Edited August 19, 2014 by RethulUrNo

[Zagam 1,982]

I think most people would be interested to find that even on live, using ToC in meta instead of soul fire really isn't a huge dps loss. At worst it's a slight loss, at best it makes your movement incredibly powerful.

 

Once the tuning pass comes through, I'll take a more in-depth look at the age old ToC vs SF debate!

This is honestly the way I play it now.  I use ToC as my major damage source, sometimes beating Doom (they're close) and still parse extremely well.  I think the variance between SF and ToC strategies is the RNG of trinkets.  It's similar to how one attempt can have Destro at 500k and the next at 450k.  Getting trinkets at the right time can make the ToC vs SF debate look one sided, but I believe them to be a lot closer than people lead on.  I thought Demo would take over in WoD because of mobility factor - looks like that's the way it's going to lay out.

[Djargo 4]

The change to Demo mastery makes me sad 

 

But atleast doom procs imps now! Only problem is they ehh...dont attack anything

Edited August 19, 2014 by Djargo

[Zagam 1,982]

The Demonology Mastery change is confusing to me - currently, it just boosts your damage, so it's a good stat, arguably our best one.  In WoD, they're just telling us Mastery is the best and then nerfing it to scale at 2/3 of the pace it does now and only affect certain abilities.  Granted, most of those abilities ARE our core abilities, but it just feels like they're tweaking us more.

[juribe 1]

The only change to Demo Mastery is the ability thing. The numbers are the same. Previously there was an 8% buff to demons, a separate 8% buff to us in caster form, then a 24% buff to meta form. They changed the wording, but now there's an 8% buff to our demons and us (the 8% to us does not limit it to caster form), then a "further" 16% buff to our meta form. So I'm pretty sure it's just a wording change, then the limiting to our abilities in meta form so items and stuff didn't get hit unintentionally.

[Zagam 1,982]

From my interpretation, I saw this...

 

Current: 8% base Mastery to pets + yourself in caster form with 600 Mastery converting into 1% damage bonus in caster form.  This meant you got a base 24% base Mastery buff in Metamorphosis form with 600 Mastery converting into 3% damage bonus.  All this meant is that Mastery boosted your damage in caster form and your pet damage the same with Meta getting 3x the benefit.

 

New: 8% base Mastery to pets + yourself in caster form with XXX Mastery converting into 1% damage bonus for certain abilities.  Now, 16% base Mastery in Metamorphosis with XXX Mastery converting into 1% damage bonus.  If this is truly additive as you say, then I'd still want to see a calculation done on their part with specific examples showing there is no difference. 

 

If my interpretation is correct, I pictured them pulling back our scaling by a factor of 1/3 in order to compensate for them giving us a Mastery attunement.  Hopefully I just incorrectly interpretted it.  I just feel it's too confusing the way it's laid out. 

[Liquidsteel 279]

I assumed it was as Zagam said.

 

Also apparently the 20% pet damage perk wasn't working and it now is, which could be a reason for this.

 

Personally I don't like having more of our damage shifted to passive abilities. If the Meta mastery is indeed reduced, it just lessens the skill cap and removes a portion of the control we had over our DPS. 

[Zagam 1,982]

 it just lessens the skill cap and removes a portion of the control we had over our DPS. 

Theme of WoD, my friend.

[Alphric 7]

I read it like this: Increases all damage by you and demon by 8%, boosts metamorphasis moves by an additional 16% 8+16=24. 

"Further increases the damage of your Touch of Chaos, Chaos Wave, Doom, Immolation Aura, and Soul Fire while in Metamorphosisby 16%."

[Gnar 26]

I am not sure if channels are dynamic sine I don't have beta but I first imagined the change was to make sure we aren't gaming shit like Drain Life anymore since it's getting buffed further. It also changes leveling quite a bit since Demo at low level never leaves meta due to Hellfire so this compensates and changes that fail. The numbers also sound additive.

Now my real questions for the lucky few....

Chaotic Resources - Is it just the noob way to snapshot trinkets with CB by brutally forcing you to cast CB constantly? I feel like this is too huge of a gap closer between skill and bads an it seems like the only active single target talent. I've heard Cataclysm hits for a nice number but it's still not for single target and pets with no active abilities are generally not the best talent choices. This brings me to the next question...

Demonic Servitude - Will we be pet dancing if there is mostly single target then bursts of AoE? or is this a moot point because pet damage is so trivial and/or other talent choices are better? This goes for all specs.

Demon Bolt - Is it gone yet? If you have to alter something 20 times, is it a worthwhile endeavor? Let me know what its latest build is playing like.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Gnar

[Zagam 1,982]

I am not sure if channels are dynamic sine I don't have beta but I first imagined the change was to make sure we aren't gaming shit like Drain Life anymore since it's getting buffed further. It also changes leveling quite a bit since Demo at low level never leaves meta due to Hellfire so this compensates and changes that fail. The numbers also sound additive.

Channeling is dynamic.  You won't be able to game Drain Life like how it's being done now.

 

Now my real questions for the lucky few....

Chaotic Resources - Is it just the noob way to snapshot trinkets...

 

Demonic Servitude - Will we be pet dancing...

Demon Bolt - Is it gone yet? If you have to alter something 20 times, is it a worthwhile endeavor? Let me know what its latest build is playing like.

Chaotic Resources - there is no snapshotting anymore.  Period.  Everything is dynamic. 

 

Demonic Servitude - no, you won't pet dance as long as they continue the model of keeping pet damage the same and swapping pets for utility.  With new Doomguard and Infernal abilities, I doubt you'll be swapping and just using the one that best suits the encounter.

 

Demon Bolt is not gone - in fact, I think they're trying to turn Demonology into a more bursty "Mountain and Valley" DPS than it has ever been before.  Demon Bolt will not go away - they've vested too much time.  Right now, Demo is a 50 second build and 10 second burn spec.  You build DF for 50 seconds using Soul Fire > Shadowbolt in caster form.  At 1000 DF, you activate Dark Soul and burn your DF with Demon Bolt as often as possible followed by remaining Soul Fires or Touch of Chaos if you need to move.  The reason it's a 60 second cycle is because of the glyph of Dark Soul making it last 10 seconds (time it takes to burn DF) and has a 60 second CD which makes it available for 100% of your Metamorphosis uptime. 

 

I think the way it'll work out is you'll stack enough Haste until you can easily fill 1000 DF in 50 seconds.  After that, you'll not want more Haste and will want Crit and Mastery to stack over it.  It'll be interesting to see, but lots of minds are starting to think Demo is going to be very bursty for 10 seconds and buildy for 50.  Might make for some interesting PvP burst, too.

[juribe 1]

Warlock (Forums, Talent Calculator)

• Create Healthstone Creates a Healthstone that can be consumed to restore 15% of your maximum 256 health. 5% of Base Mana. 3 sec cast.
• Unstable Affliction Causes [ 7 + 26.1% 25% of Spell Power ] damage over 14 sec. If dispelled, the dispeller suffers [ 8 + 208.8% 200% of Spell Power ] instant Shadow damage and is silenced for 4 sec. This damage is always a critical strike. 100 yd range. 1.5 sec cast.

Talents

• Searing Flames Ember Tap causes 50% more healing, and costs 50% fewer Burning Embers refunds 50% of its Burning Ember cost. Warlock - LvL 15 Talent. 40 yd range.

Affliction

• Unstable Affliction Causes [ 7 + 26.1% 25% of Spell Power ] damage over 14 sec. If dispelled, the dispeller suffers [ 8 + 208.8% 200% of Spell Power ] instant Shadow damage and is silenced for 4 sec. This damage is always a critical strike. Warlock - Affliction Spec. 1.5% of Base Mana. 40 yd range. 1.5 sec cast.

Demonology

• Mastery: Master Demonologist Increases all damage done by you and your demon servants by 8% 6%. Further increases the damage of your Touch of Chaos, Chaos Wave, Doom, Immolation Aura, and Soul Fire while in Metamorphosis by 16%. Warlock - Demonology Spec. 12%. Warlock - Demonology Spec.
• Soul Fire (Affliction, Destruction) Burn the enemy's soul, causing [ 1 + 58.13% 42.5% of Spell Power ] Fire damage.
• Soul Fire (Demonology) Burn the enemy's soul, causing [ 1 + 58.13% 42.5% of Spell Power ] Fire damage and generating 30 Demonic Fury.

[Gnar 26]

Thank you for the response Zag. 

 

but..

 

Chaotic Resources - there is no snapshotting anymore.  Period.  Everything is dynamic. 

 

Snapshotting has more of a meaning than just DoT's. Prime example, you snapshot CB as it leaves your hands.  That is what snapshot means and the only change is that DoT's don't hold the "leaves your hand" model and update when they do damage. So back to my question, is CR just a noob way to get the full (or closer to full) effect of your trinkets by being forced to not cap embers every 5 seconds? My point is that currently you store and burst and the CR model seems to be spend, build, spend indefinitely making you cast CB every few GCD.  Currently if you didn't store and get a PBI, you're fucked. CR would mean you are far less fucked because you can build up and spend all before the buff falls.  You'd have to try far less to get CB's into your procs and I find that disappointing being someone who prides themselves in superior CB usage.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Gnar

[Zilthy 36]

Gnar: Or it will mean a lot of dead noob locks using Chaos Bolt as a filler and standing it too much bad ground stuff too often trying to always do the long cast.

 

Although, it really does dumb down the idea of resource building, banking and spending.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Zilthy

[Alphric 7]

Nerfffffffffed my mastery broooooo