WOD BETA DISCUSSION w/SCREENSHOTS

[Desos 18]

I don´t want to rant but when I read something like this, it´s just not possible. Okay, most classes also got nerfs(except for maybe ferals and hunters, who got some kind of tweaks), but in the range of like 10-20% on maybe one or two abilities and not like in demo´s case on most of one´s toolkit abilities.

Maybe they´re running their tests with fel imps not auto /afk-ing on spawn. But why in hell wouldn´t they want us to know this or atleast provide a build with a bugfix.

They´re holding back information respectively work a number of builds ahead and then act like a know-it-all. The icing on the cake is their wondering, why there is such a toxic atmosphere in their forums, when they act like that.

[Zagam 1,982]

Who misses Ghostcrawler now?  He felt like a major dickbutt before, but he sure as hell treated the community better than this doofus.

[Eddie 16]

It is sad that the man who called everyone that played Demo in ToT an exploiter was a better option than his replacement.

[Astynax 24]

I've got every class to 90. I'll be the last Warlock to jump ship, but if Warlocks bring little utility (Sorry, Celest, raid strats are NOT devised around Gateways, it's the other way around) and are not Tier 1 DPS, there will be little justification to my group having 3 (me, Locky, Kaz), so I'll likely be the one that pops to a more well-rounded class. I doubt they'll let Warlocks suffer, but I've got my emergency kit prepared.

I thought Kazi was still having his little love affair with those tree-huggers....

In all seriousness though, it's good to know that I'm not the only one preparing for WoD by leveling a variety of alts to 90 (in addition to my desperately searching for a guild who is making some kind of attempt at killing heroic Garrosh because I want my Feat of Stregnth....). All the doom and gloom in this forum is scaring me a little. I realize it's still tuning phase for alpha... but..... but.... *sigh*.... You'd think they'd have their shit together a little bit more than this.... *insert obligatory Celestalon hate*

Edited September 8, 2014 by Astynax

[Zagam 1,982]

It's not obligatory hate - this is his first expansion where he's dealing with masses of criers, whiners, bitchers, and complainers.  I get that he wants to give it back to the people making his life miserable, but he's got a job to do and that's to maintain the best line of communication with the community.  His responses show very little effort, to me at least.

 

I'm not forcing Kaz or Locky to change - I'm pretty flexible with all classes and can min/max anything.  Just haven't decided what to do yet.  As a raid leader, simple classes do well - it's why I've stayed Destruction on most fights whereas I'd love to be Demo or Affliction - they just require too much attention to do as well as Destruction.  I can't really be a melee, so it MIGHT be Spriest or Mage since we're missing both.  We'll see what kinda recruits we get before I make my decision.  Regardless, this is my last expansion of WoW with my current life plan.  Just gotta do something that makes it fun.

[Desos 18]

It is sad that the man who called everyone that played Demo in ToT an exploiter was a better option than his replacement.

 

He had a point with UVoLS being overpowered and demo got its wings clipped consequently, but it was not anything like this nerf-fest. Also Celestalon needs to take Communication 101.

[Astynax 24]

It's not obligatory hate - this is his first expansion where he's dealing with masses of criers, whiners, bitchers, and complainers.  I get that he wants to give it back to the people making his life miserable, but he's got a job to do and that's to maintain the best line of communication with the community.  His responses show very little effort, to me at least.

 

I'm not forcing Kaz or Locky to change - I'm pretty flexible with all classes and can min/max anything.  Just haven't decided what to do yet.  As a raid leader, simple classes do well - it's why I've stayed Destruction on most fights whereas I'd love to be Demo or Affliction - they just require too much attention to do as well as Destruction.  I can't really be a melee, so it MIGHT be Spriest or Mage since we're missing both.  We'll see what kinda recruits we get before I make my decision.  Regardless, this is my last expansion of WoW with my current life plan.  Just gotta do something that makes it fun.

No, no, I didn't mean to imply at all that any of the flak on these forums was unwarranted. I know the majority of voices on this forum well enough to know that if you guys are saying it, it's probably got some merit to it. I realize that the intelligent voices are not the only ones he has to listen to either. I didn't mean in any way to imply that I disagree with you guys, because we're cumulatively the most informed community of warlocks out there, and we're sitting here confused about what the fuck blizz is throwing together and why. He's not responding in a way that's good for the community, and I wholly respect that. I was just being facetious.

Sad to hear that we're losing you Zag.... =( But I guess that's off topic. I was just noting that last I saw, Kazi was raiding you guys with his drood, out of want to. I assumed you'd want to stick with your beloved twisted warlock, but that's just out of guessing, I suppose. I guess it's also different as a Raid lead too. I've never had the honor, but now that you mention it, I see what you're talking about.

[Astynax 24]

He had a point with UVoLS being overpowered and demo got its wings clipped consequently, but it was not anything like this nerf-fest. Also Celestalon needs to take Communication 101.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Butthurt-ted-ness came from the fact that Sparkuggz, Zag, EVERY FUCKING GOOD WARLOCK ON THE DAMNED BETA told Blizz explicitedly "Do not let this proc go live. It will be ridiculously overpowered, and break the entire spec because it's way too good." And they changed it absolutely none whatsoever..... But I wasn't around at the time, so it's possible I'm wrong.

[Zagam 1,982]

I assumed you'd want to stick with your beloved twisted warlock, but that's just out of guessing, I suppose. I guess it's also different as a Raid lead too. I've never had the honor, but now that you mention it, I see what you're talking about.

Class doesn't really matter to me - I enjoy my Warlock a lot.  Truth be told, the only reason I started playing one was because it was the least represented and the most difficult to master, based on a couple of websites I read before starting to play.  I just kinda stuck with it while playing other classes to high levels.  I play WoW more for the people I play with, not the class I'm using.  It really doesn't matter to me what class I use to bring mob HP levels down.  They're all pretty close anyways - keep a DoT up here, keep a buff up here, use this when it's shiny, and use this otherwise. 

 

Unless I'm mistaken, the Butthurt-ted-ness came from the fact that Sparkuggz, Zag, EVERY FUCKING GOOD WARLOCK ON THE DAMNED BETA told Blizz explicitedly "Do not let this proc go live. It will be ridiculously overpowered, and break the entire spec because it's way too good." And they changed it absolutely none whatsoever..... But I wasn't around at the time, so it's possible I'm wrong.

I'm not even mad that they make mistakes.  It's the fact they don't admit to the mistake.  Worst of all is then going back and putting the blame on the players and/or not making the necessary improvements to move away from things.  They had a giant post about how openers have gotten too powerful from theorycrafting and advice websites.  Well - sorry, we're going to try to be the best we can.  Also, why wouldn't the testers have seen this on their end?  If they are truly capable of seeing a class's maximum by playing it on their end, how come they didn't see this coming?  It makes me believe we can play the classes they design better than they can which calls to question the integrity of their nerfing and buffing.

[Astynax 24]

They had a giant post about how openers have gotten too powerful from theorycrafting and advice websites. Well - sorry, we're going to try to be the best we can.

This is just stupid... I feel like openers, in most specs, anyway, would've gotten to that point anyway. Press all the buttons, hit the biggest one while all the buffs are rolling. I mean, there are nuances... but..... Yeah. Lots of them are not that hard ya know.... And balancing expecting those of us capable of bleeding DPS to not is likewise dumb. I realize it can't be primary.... But it has to factor in.

Also, why wouldn't the testers have seen this on their end? If they are truly capable of seeing a class's maximum by playing it on their end, how come they didn't see this coming? It makes me believe we can play the classes they design better than they can which calls to question the integrity of their nerfing and buffing.

And yet somehow, they're seeing Demo having 150% the DPS you guys are on the beta..... /s

Edited September 8, 2014 by Astynax

[Desos 18]

It seems there is hope:

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/508203575042781184

 

"We found the cause of the discrepancy with Demo; some major bugfixes recently that hugely affected damage. Retuning to fix." Celestalon

Edited September 8, 2014 by check0790

[Zagam 1,982]

"We found the cause of discrepency" sounds a little...I don't know what to expect.  Wish they'd just say "you guys were right, we're on it to fix it right away" rather than eluding to them finding the discrepency instead of listening to us tell them of the discrepencies we found. 

 

Either way, maybe Demo can get past Holy Priests on the meters!  On a serious note, I hope all the Demo attention doesn't detract from making sure Destruction and Affliction are taken care of.

[Alphric 7]

Right? I saw his post about "It Was" and I was like...On Council of Elders during ToT Demo was overpowered...(really that whole tier) But Demo has not been no damn 33% overpowered since 5.4. I hope they do also keep the other specs in mind. I would just like all our specs to do good so I don't get into a raid and be like, "well fuck now I cant play what I want to because if I do then I wont contribute enough dps to beat the timers". We're a strict damage class that has had significant utility loss. We should be able to retain our fair and hard earned dps. Warlocks focus on damage where the other classes devote sections of timing to learn tanking and healing. and utility. We are just a powerhungry masterclass by nature. word.

[juribe 1]

Right? I saw his post about "It Was" and I was like...On Council of Elders during ToT Demo was overpowered...(really that whole tier) But Demo has not been no damn 33% overpowered since 5.4. I hope they do also keep the other specs in mind. I would just like all our specs to do good so I don't get into a raid and be like, "well fuck now I cant play what I want to because if I do then I wont contribute enough dps to beat the timers". We're a strict damage class that has had significant utility loss. We should be able to retain our fair and hard earned dps. Warlocks focus on damage where the other classes devote sections of timing to learn tanking and healing. and utility. We are just a powerhungry masterclass by nature. word.

 

Nothing they've been discussing has anything to do with live or ToT or 5.4. This is all on beta, so none of that is relevant. There was a discrepancy/bug/whatever on beta that caused their internal testing to produce inflated numbers, They're retuning so that's good.

 

Affliction is already good numbers-wise, just needs...to not be boring, but I doubt they'll fix that at this point. And I haven't played destro on beta in quite a while so I don't know where it's at.

[Kazistrasz 216]

Sad to hear that we're losing you Zag.... =( But I guess that's off topic. I was just noting that last I saw, Kazi was raiding you guys with his drood, out of want to. I assumed you'd want to stick with your beloved twisted warlock, but that's just out of guessing, I suppose. I guess it's also different as a Raid lead too. I've never had the honor, but now that you mention it, I see what you're talking about.

 

I didn't switch to druid out of wanting to be a druid -- I switched to my druid out of our needing a healer and having some skill at resto. Boomkin wasn't out of want - it was out of us picking up another resto druid and me trying to find something besides warlock to enjoy for the same reasons Zag is thinking about changing. It just so happens that I don't really enjoy much besides warlock, because that has always been my identity. It also happens that I utterly hate playing boomkin the way it is currently. I've been back to slinging Green Fire™ for a few months, now.

 

 

They had a giant post about how openers have gotten too powerful from theorycrafting and advice websites.

 

The best part: their response to this was supposed to be the way they changed trinket procs and RPPM stuff for 5.4, yet openers are still just as ridiculous, if not worse. Classes like Affliction or Boomkin that can quickly break 1M DPS and not fall below 700k for 30 seconds are proof they were just spouting bullshit so we wouldn't think they were trying to hammer just UVLS.  

[gahhda 95]

He had a point with UVoLS being overpowered and demo got its wings clipped consequently, but it was not anything like this nerf-fest. Also Celestalon needs to take Communication 101.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, the Butthurt-ted-ness came from the fact that Sparkuggz, Zag, EVERY FUCKING GOOD WARLOCK ON THE DAMNED BETA told Blizz explicitedly "Do not let this proc go live. It will be ridiculously overpowered, and break the entire spec because it's way too good." And they changed it absolutely none whatsoever..... But I wasn't around at the time, so it's possible I'm wrong.

 

You have to understand, celestalon says retarded things because he takes shit at face value. To him, the word exploit simply means using a mechanic in a way that is unintentional, when you know it is unintentional. What he doesn't understand is that nothing about how we used UVLS was unintended. The trinket gave us 100% crit. We have a debuff that heavily scales off crit and has a stupidly long duration. Even if you didn't min/max it to an extreme, just equipping the trinket and doing the normal rotation was better than not having the trinket.

 

Scorch weaving, on the other hand, was some exploitation level shit. When I first posted results for that stuff all of the mages were dumbfounded by the idea. It CLEARLY was not how they intended for it to work.

 

UVLS was used exactly how it was intended to work. 100% crit chance in a small window. The fact that the devs didn't have the simple foresight to check to make sure it wouldn't be broken with dots...that's on them.

 

Follow that up with the fact that THEY DIDN'T NERF UVLS ONCE DURING PROGRESSION. You know why? Because multiple top 10 warlocks have told me that THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT WAS BEING USED. The idiots thought it was mediocre until a week in, they saw demo raping all the things, and subsequently nerfed DEMO instead of THE TRINKET. That is what was the biggest slap in the face of the whole fiasco.

Edited September 8, 2014 by gahhda

[Desos 18]

Best line of the latest build notes: 

• Shadow Bolt now does 52.5% of Spell Power damage, down from 74%.

But I can imagine, it takes some time to get rid  of "the cause of discrepancy".

Edited September 9, 2014 by check0790

[Astynax 24]

I didn't switch to druid out of wanting to be a druid -- I switched to my druid out of our needing a healer and having some skill at resto. Boomkin wasn't out of want - it was out of us picking up another resto druid and me trying to find something besides warlock to enjoy for the same reasons Zag is thinking about changing. It just so happens that I don't really enjoy much besides warlock, because that has always been my identity. It also happens that I utterly hate playing boomkin the way it is currently. I've been back to slinging Green Fire™ for a few months, now. 

 

My mistake then Kazi. I totally misunderstood the situation for you guys. I thought you half wanted to, and just so happened to also need it. So entirely my mistake.

 

 

You have to understand, celestalon says retarded things because he takes shit at face value. To him, the word exploit simply means using a mechanic in a way that is unintentional, when you know it is unintentional. What he doesn't understand is that nothing about how we used UVLS was unintended. The trinket gave us 100% crit. We have a debuff that heavily scales off crit and has a stupidly long duration. Even if you didn't min/max it to an extreme, just equipping the trinket and doing the normal rotation was better than not having the trinket.

 

Scorch weaving, on the other hand, was some exploitation level shit. When I first posted results for that stuff all of the mages were dumbfounded by the idea. It CLEARLY was not how they intended for it to work.

 

UVLS was used exactly how it was intended to work. 100% crit chance in a small window. The fact that the devs didn't have the simple foresight to check to make sure it wouldn't be broken with dots...that's on them.

 

Follow that up with the fact that THEY DIDN'T NERF UVLS ONCE DURING PROGRESSION. You know why? Because multiple top 10 warlocks have told me that THEY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT WAS BEING USED. The idiots thought it was mediocre until a week in, they saw demo raping all the things, and subsequently nerfed DEMO instead of THE TRINKET. That is what was the biggest slap in the face of the whole fiasco.

 

 

Definitely. I've actually had this discussion with a couple of people before in that I tend to refer to any usage of mechanics in a niche way outside of normal circumstances that results in stupendous damage as "cheaty." The majority of people have problems with this because to them, the connotation of dishonesty exists with that word (I just consider it to be outside the otherwise mores of the situation). Point being, I'm accepting of Celestalon's general inability to surpass connotative boundaries and see beyond his scope. My issue is his general mindset that any criticism he hears is automatically some bitchy 4 year old that's losing his favorite toy.

[Desos 18]

 

...My issue is his general mindset that any criticism he hears is automatically some bitchy 4 year old that's losing his favorite toy.

 

Yup, I´m sure gahhda provided logs/sim to stress out the lack of damage of demo and he responded, please forgive the comparison, like some sassy waitress.

 

OT: @gahhda. After looking at some of your conversations, I have to say that there are some ignorant people out there on twitter. My old IT-teacher had a saying about PC/tech problems: "90% of an error sits in front of the screen".

[Sifon 25]

Best line of the latest build notes: 

• Shadow Bolt now does 52.5% of Spell Power damage, down from 74%.

But I can imagine, it takes some time to get rid  of "the cause of discrepancy".

 

Seriously though, I hope it's the part where Celestalon said demo is gonna be clunky on next builds.

[Zagam 1,982]

Best line of the latest build notes: 

• Shadow Bolt now does 52.5% of Spell Power damage, down from 74%.

But I can imagine, it takes some time to get rid  of "the cause of discrepancy".

So, 52.5%, down from 125% - essentially a 60% nerf.  Were they letting the glyph fire out 3 normal Shadowbolts instead of 1/3 of the power for each one?   I don't even know how Shadowbolt needs nerfed that much. 

[Sifon 25]

I'm hoping that they are tuning the priorities at the moment, from what I heard ToC was better than SF and devs said it shouldn't be. This could have been done with buffing SF aswell but they don't want to overtune us I think. When they think priorities set as they wanted, everything should be buffed same amount. Right now Shadow Bolt has lower coefficent than Scorch which considered as "trivial" damage ability so current iteration cannot be correct in any means. I hope in the end demo can be competitive.

[Soulzar 42]

I think they just want us to test Destro and Aff more so they are breaking Demo for a few builds..

 

Ever since Cataclysm hit for 500k as Demo, its definitely had the players attention more than the other two specs.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Soulzar

[Twinkielock 15]

This shadowbolt nerf reminds me of the great corruption nerf of the pre TBC patch.

 

 

[Desos 18]

Nope, just 6.0 PTR aka prepatch. But Character Copy won´t work, so premades are needed. 

 

Edit: Not only does the Character Copy not work, but it is also not possible to create Premades or use lvl 90 chars, since Pandaria is somehow not active and Premades start in a faction shrine. 

Edited September 11, 2014 by Desos