WOD BETA DISCUSSION w/SCREENSHOTS

[Kazistrasz 216]

00:04:12.813 Kazistrasz Demonbolt Raid Damage Dummy 1 *470884*

 

So, yeah. That happened. Full raid buffs in Shat + Blood Fury + DS + On-Use Trinket

[Kazistrasz 216]

Is it possible that they're buffing demon bolt disproportionately from Demonic Servitude due to demonology's demons being stronger, and that fact isn't showing itself in the beta/logs? Or are they just flat trying to make us take it, or atleast increase it's probability for being used for testing purposes?

 

I'm fairly certain their tuning process is getting a big bulletin board and putting a blown up picture of each spell's icon on it. Then, they take turns where one throws a dart at a spell, and another throws a dart at an actual dart board. Buff/nerf that spell by that much.

[Orthios 271]

00:04:12.813 Kazistrasz Demonbolt Raid Damage Dummy 1 *470884*

 

So, yeah. That happened. Full raid buffs in Shat + Blood Fury + DS + On-Use Trinket

Holy sh*t, and I thought getting 110k chimaera shot crit was a big hit.

[Kazistrasz 216]

If I'd had the proc trinket go off, I could have easily broken 500k and possibly started actually approaching the ability to have one-shot myself WITHOUT a crit.

[Nytemare 2]

Holy hell DB is strong. I thought we only did 2-3 DB before SF won out due to the cost? So I taking it we want to keep it stacking,and not let stack fall off even if at one point all DF is used just on one DB?

 

Also Zag you said Demo looks to be Mastery > Crit > Haste. What about multistrike? is that back to be useless?

[Kazistrasz 216]

Nothing about this is talking about what you should be doing. It's about what we can be doing. If you can generate enough DF to stack it in a BG, you can potentially start one-shotting a different player every 30-40 seconds.

[Nytemare 2]

With Demonbolt being the absolute choice for Demonology, Soul Fire isn't going to be used a great deal in Metamorphosis because of how hard DB hits, so Soul Fire will be a decent choice to use while filling your DF if you have excess charges over 5.  Demonology is looking to be Mastery > Crit > Haste, so it'll be interesting as the tiers go on to see if Soul Fire loses its zing, especially outside of Meta.

 

my comment was directed toward this, not PVP as I know it be nerf for that, CB got nerf because people QQ, so I don't see them not nerfing DB in PVP either.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Nytemare

[Liquidsteel 279]

Slow down tiger. They are still in the process of tuning. For all we know Demonbolt could be nerfed again next patch or changed to work differently by the time we hit live. There are NO concrete rules for how to use it on live because we can't predict how it will pan out.

 

For now, the general consensus is that you cast 4x Demonbolt under the effects of Glyphed Dark Soul every minute, then spend the next 50 seconds building back up to over 750 Fury. This should allow us a small amount of breathing room where we can also afford to reapply Doom and maybe ToC a limited amount of times for movement, but other than that it's all about those 10 seconds every minute.

 

Once again, the above is only really valid right now, and it can all change, so please don't get hung up on it. 

 

In terms of Multistrike, I believe it holds a similar value to Crit, might be a bit lower though. Likely ahead of haste.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Once again, the above is only really valid right now, and it can all change, so please don't get hung up on it. 

 

 

 

This. This. This. This. This. This.

 

I know it's fun to have new changes to play around with and to talk about, but these are small numbers changes, they have soft impacts on theory crafting. Most of what this build did was make us laugh because we all know they over buffed Demon Bolt. We're not going to spend a lot of time theory crafting over a build we KNOW will get reverted before live (unless Blizz TOTALLY screws up again, i.e. UVLS).

 

CMs, PvP - RBG/Arena, PvP - world, raids of all levels, simple 5 mans, would all be broken if a 10 stack demon bolt that did >700k in the first tier of raiding gear was allowed to go live.

 

IMO, they should cap the stack at 5 and bring down the damage it does by 10-15%, all of the other buffs they did this build are fine and needed.

[EvilOverlord 1]

Question about Destro 6.0: Last I heard it was mana-starved in execute since they removed the mana return of Shadowburn without thinking.

Since nothing's changed for Destro lately, is this still an issue? I think this would knock down Destro even more, especially with all the adds in SoO fights.

[Zagam 1,982]

Holy hell DB is strong. I thought we only did 2-3 DB before SF won out due to the cost? So I taking it we want to keep it stacking,and not let stack fall off even if at one point all DF is used just on one DB?

 

Also Zag you said Demo looks to be Mastery > Crit > Haste. What about multistrike? is that back to be useless?

What you're seeing is a conversation between me and Kaz on what you could do to get some real big burst.  This obviously won't be ideal in a raid setting, but it's funny to set up in Challenge Modes or during trash before a boss.  Opening up with a 300k hit is going to have tanks really mad.  Note that I said it LOOKS to be M>C>H, not that it IS that way.  Multistrike is rather lackluster, both in live testing, common sense, and simulations.  It can't be "back to useless" when it was never a stat to start out with.

 

Nothing about this is talking about what you should be doing. It's about what we can be doing. If you can generate enough DF to stack it in a BG, you can potentially start one-shotting a different player every 30-40 seconds.

The tears on the forums - my body is ready.

 

my comment was directed toward this, not PVP as I know it be nerf for that, CB got nerf because people QQ, so I don't see them not nerfing DB in PVP either.

It's still possible to set it up in PvE. 

 

Slow down tiger. They are still in the process of tuning. For all we know Demonbolt could be nerfed again next patch or changed to work differently by the time we hit live. There are NO concrete rules for how to use it on live because we can't predict how it will pan out.

 

For now, the general consensus is that you cast 4x Demonbolt under the effects of Glyphed Dark Soul every minute, then spend the next 50 seconds building back up to over 750 Fury. This should allow us a small amount of breathing room where we can also afford to reapply Doom and maybe ToC a limited amount of times for movement, but other than that it's all about those 10 seconds every minute.

 

Once again, the above is only really valid right now, and it can all change, so please don't get hung up on it. 

 

In terms of Multistrike, I believe it holds a similar value to Crit, might be a bit lower though. Likely ahead of haste.

Just as he says, the title of this thread is WoD Beta DISCUSSION, not rulebook or guide.  You can't make concrete decisions about things that have the ability to change in 12 hours or 12 days.  I'm finding Multistrike to be a very low portion of my DPS on a level 100 pre-made.  Simulations at level 100 show Multistrike to be rather low as well.  Simcraft will be MUCH closer to optimally describing stat weights and DPS models because of the lower amount of dynamic changes within parses.  Burst will be less ridiculous and snapshot decision making is removed, so Simcraft will be a better measuring stick for Warlocks than it's ever been, so I trust that Multistrike is crud for Demo.

 

This. This. This. This. This. This.

 

I know it's fun to have new changes to play around with and to talk about, but these are small numbers changes, they have soft impacts on theory crafting. Most of what this build did was make us laugh because we all know they over buffed Demon Bolt. We're not going to spend a lot of time theory crafting over a build we KNOW will get reverted before live (unless Blizz TOTALLY screws up again, i.e. UVLS).

 

CMs, PvP - RBG/Arena, PvP - world, raids of all levels, simple 5 mans, would all be broken if a 10 stack demon bolt that did >700k in the first tier of raiding gear was allowed to go live.

 

IMO, they should cap the stack at 5 and bring down the damage it does by 10-15%, all of the other buffs they did this build are fine and needed.

Quit giving them ideas.  It only makes it worse when they implement your ideas exactly and you wonder if they did it or read your post.  Remember my post about what needed to happen to Destruction for SoO to be good? 

 

Question about Destro 6.0: Last I heard it was mana-starved in execute since they removed the mana return of Shadowburn without thinking.

Since nothing's changed for Destro lately, is this still an issue? I think this would knock down Destro even more, especially with all the adds in SoO fights.

They might make an adjustment to mana regeneration for Destruction especially since we are steering clear of Haste with Crit and Mastery winning the early rounds of the stat fight.  I don't think you'll have to worry about it if they don't make any adjustments since you'll either play Demonology or be a handicap to your group. 

[Deamux 4]

Almost every good Warlock is in a really good raiding guild because of how powerful they are.  Even the best guilds are still recruiting Warlocks.

 

New plan, we found a starting warlock, he used to be balance druid, its my job to get him up to speed and transfrom him into a kickass warlock! So the first thing he gets to do is read this whole forum . But anyway I wanted to launch an idea here;

 

I've read some of you guys dont like the fact that it's all getting a bit easier, I prefer a bigger challenge too but ok. But with demonology acting around demonbolt; Am I the only one who sees some comparison to destro's Chaos bolt? I mean currently on live demo is so much different than destro, and it seems that that difference is getting reduiced. I dont know if I like that all that much. I must add that I haven't played on ptr nor beta, so I have no clue of the actual feeling. I'm just talking about the idea behind it...

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm already putting ideas for 6.0 guides/forum threads together.  One of the ideas is to have a MAXIMUM HIT thread similar to Chaos Bolt but containing a high-score type post for Haunt, Demonbolt, and Chaos Bolt. 

 

Demonbolt plays very much like Chaos Bolt live in that you build your play around utilizing it during procs.  It has a resource cost, moderately long cast-time, and can't be spammed to oblivion without lengthy set up, so yes, it's very similar. 

[Deamux 4]

Okay thank you. I hope they wont cause destruction and demonology to feel too much alike. Because now (for me) it feels so different. But I guess time will tell. Its very nice that everyone here keeps the others (like me) up to date and providing help like this.

 

<3

[Nytemare 2]

Regarding multistrike I recall reading where pets now benefiting from it, and saw a post I think by liquid or maybe locky that mention demo could be Master > Multistrike so that where my comment about it being useless came from.

 

Regarding DB I wasn't seeking a rule book, more of guide to how it seems to be used. I am the noob demo here, while you guys are the masters. So I been reading what you guys said about DB, so I had an idea on how I was supposed to use it on the beta. I know it going to be changed / hope it gets changed as I can tell its way to strong. Unless Blizz is that bad to repeat the same mistake twice.(UVLS anyone?)

Edited October 4, 2014 by Nytemare

[Kazistrasz 216]

Pets are fully capable of Multistrike Hits and Multistrike Critical Hits the same way a player is. There's hardly a point on worrying about where stats are until we get to WoD, much like the actual rotation. It's fun for us to discuss and dick around with, but there's a limit to how seriously we're taking it at the moment. Mostly, we're just giving ourselves a head start. They just overbuffed an already potentially OP spell, nerfed the most retardedly OP spec 20% or more, and then nerfed a perfectly fine Balance spec by 10% across the board.

 

Also, you're now just regurgitating everything we've been saying in your second paragraph.

[Nytemare 2]

Pets are fully capable of Multistrike Hits and Multistrike Critical Hits the same way a player is. There's hardly a point on worrying about where stats are until we get to WoD, much like the actual rotation. It's fun for us to discuss and dick around with, but there's a limit to how seriously we're taking it at the moment. Mostly, we're just giving ourselves a head start. They just overbuffed an already potentially OP spell, nerfed the most retardedly OP spec 20% or more, and then nerfed a perfectly fine Balance spec by 10% across the board.

 

Also, you're now just regurgitating everything we've been saying in your second paragraph.

 

paragraph one was a typo, I changed "not" to "now" like it was supposed to say.

[Lockybalboa 618]

and saw a post I think by liquid or maybe locky that mention demo could be Master > Multistrike so that where my comment about it being useless came from.

 

 

Not me. I just don't care enough about stats to put a lot of work in to it. When I do put work in to it, I don't publish it. I pass on my data to the math nerds and let them do their magic. "Math nerds" = Zag, Kaz, and Gaddah.

 

Stats come and go, stats (outside of your primary and first secondary) are heavily relative to your play style and current gear and even still only impact a small portion of your DPS.

 

Mechanics, spell uptimes, active uptimes, planing, a deep understand of your class and the game as a whole are FAR more important to your DPS and to your raid spot. This is my Kung Fu. And my Kung Fu is strong.

[Zagam 1,982]

Here are some early Simulated Stat Weights and other fun stuff.

 

Level 100

Affliction - 665 ilvl

28589 DPS

Int - 5.06

SP - 4.56

Mast - 2.89

Haste - 2.39

Multistrike - 2.26

Versatility - 2.12

Crit - 2.02

 

Affliction - 680 ilvl

33766 DPS

Int - 6.23

SP - 5.5

Mastery - 3.64

Haste - 3.41

Crit - 3.23

Multistrike - 3.09

Versatility - 2.51

 

Affliction - 695 ilvl

40684 DPS

Int - 6.00

SP - 5.59

Mastery - 4.38

Haste - 4.31

Crit - 3.23

Multistrike - 3.03

Versatility - 3.02

 

TL;DR Affliction - Int > Mastery >= Haste > Crit = Multistrike = Versatility @ Mythic, but all pretty close early in gear levels.  Push for Haste and Mastery for all gear levels.

 

Demonology - 665 ilvl

32061 DPS

Int - 6.13

SP - 4.92

Haste - 3.17

Crit - 2.97

Mastery - 2.77

Multistrike - 2.72

Versatility - 2.38

 

Demonology - 680 ilvl

37980 DPS

Int - 6.09

SP - 5.36

Haste - 3.40

Mastery - 3.06

Versatility - 2.82

Multistrike - 2.72

Crit - 2.57

 

Demonology - 695 ilvl

44948 DPS

Int - 7.30

SP - 6.70

Crit - 4.90

Haste - 4.56

Mastery - 4.47

Multistrike - 4.23

Versatility - 3.33

 

TL;DR Demonology

Normal - Haste >= Crit >= Mastery = Multistrike > Versatility

Heroic - Haste > Mastery >= Multistrike >= Versatility >= Crit

Mythic - Crit > Haste >= Mastery >= Multistrike > Versatility

 

Haste always going to be great - Crit seems to devalue somewhere in the Heroic gearing phase, but in Mythic gear, Crit wins out heavily. 

 

Destruction 665 ilvl

26555 DPS

Int - 5.23

SP - 4.24

Mastery - 2.56

Crit - 2.44

Multistrike - 2.12

Versatility 1.96

Haste - 1.83

 

Destruction 680 ilvl

31202 DPS

SP - 5.12

Int - 5.06

Crit - 3.05

Mastery - 2.83

Multistrike - 2.62

Versatility 2.30

Haste - 1.63

 

Destruction 695 ilvl

36840 DPS

Int - 5.66

SP - 5.00

Crit - 3.80

Mastery - 3.44

Haste - 3.26

Multistrike - 3.19

Versatility 2.79

 

TL;DR Destruction - Crit > Mastery > Multistrike = Versatility = Haste.  Haste gains some value at BiS levels, but stick to Crit and Mastery.

[Nytemare 2]

Wow thanks Zag for the information. It cool to have an idea on what stats will be. Wow it funny how the new stats play so little role with the lock. Sure versatility could be useful as 1% is a 1% damage increase and that could work great with locks. 

 

Just going off what you posted it looking like for ally, Gnome would be the best for affliction, Dwarf/Worgen (maybe more Worgen in Mythic) for Demo, and Dwarf for Destro due to those racials.

[Kazistrasz 216]

All I heard was "sucky, non-Horde bad race," "sucky non-Horde bad race," and "sucky, non-Horde bad race."

 

Lok'tar!

 

Also, Blood Elf all the way.

[Alphric 7]

Nooooo not crit anything but crit lol

[Djargo 4]

What are you guys gonna play in the pre patch, and with what stat prios? Demo without demonbolt and DS glyph seems meh. Destro looks exactly the same. Affliction will just make me sad once we reach protecters.

[Phenax 12]

What are you guys gonna play in the pre patch, and with what stat prios? Demo without demonbolt and DS glyph seems meh. Destro looks exactly the same. Affliction will just make me sad once we reach protecters.

I am likely going destro/demo. As you said, destro only really loses mobility and should be pretty good on some fights regardless of how monotonous of it. Demo should still be able to function on fights like paragons, protectors, etc. plus I will be without question playing it if it is still the top dog come t17 progress. You should still be able to do okay burning MC procs with dark soul, but obviously not having DB for a month will hurt.

Aff is just going to be something I want to avoid for a long time.

 

Still looking at stat priorities but I will be gemming mastery and not put too much thought into the rest, content is at such a "super farm" point where it's mainly playstyle based and it won't really affect your raid.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Phenax

[Zagam 1,982]

I'm going 6.0 Demo because of mobility issues and my role.  I'll be going Haste = 16k (don't ask, I'm not telling), Mastery, then Crit.  I'll be using KTT and PBI.  And I'll be kicking lots of ass.