WOD BETA DISCUSSION w/SCREENSHOTS

[Zagam 1,982]

"Snapshot" has been a term used largely to describe the concept of casting something that has a duration such as a DoT with procs up in order to make it last with procs, even after the proc fades.  I've not used the term "snapshot" in using Chaos Bolt with procs - I always thought of that as "capturing" the proc.  Terminology aside, we're talking about the same thing, so I apologize if I was confusing. 

 

I think Chaotic Resources is Destruction's AoE talent.  The AoE CB's along with the super fast Ember generation doesn't scream off to me a good single target talent.  Casting Chaos Bolt on a more frequent basis would plant your feet a lot longer.  It would have the opposite effect that Demonology has with the freedom of ToC.  On a fight that requires no movement, it may come out even, but finding a place to plant for 2.0-2.5 second casts all the time will suck.

[Gnar 26]

So what is the single target talent in that tree? I assume the Doomguard but that takes no active skill to manage so thats a boring as fuck role playing talent. Cataclysm obviously seems like the burst long living AoE talent (that is far from needed for Desro) but does it somehow have a role in single target? It seems like the other specs are getting the love from choices which I don't mind because I am ready to play all 3 but I just really dont want to have to pull out a Destro spec for all AoE encounters.

[Zagam 1,982]

You're asking questions unanswerable at this time because final numbers passes haven't become available. 

[Gnar 26]

Also "capturing" in photography is a synonym for "snapshotting" something. Same things but using different terms can make you overlook stuff like that sometimes so it's understandable. Regardless, thanks for the answer.

[Astynax 24]

I think Chaotic Resources is Destruction's AoE talent. The AoE CB's along with the super fast Ember generation doesn't scream off to me a good single target talent. Casting Chaos Bolt on a more frequent basis would plant your feet a lot longer. It would have the opposite effect that Demonology has with the freedom of ToC. On a fight that requires no movement, it may come out even, but finding a place to plant for 2.0-2.5 second casts all the time will suck.

So then Zag, we're looking like Demo is the "default" for beginning raiding in WoD? With possibly destro, or aff being a viable OS? Tried to read through the thread, but I could only skim the basics. I know DPS is still being tuned, but sounds like Destro is very immobile, but maybe very powerful, while Aff is meh on most fights, and demo is extremely utilitarian, and just all around not bad. Correct me if I misunderstood the consensus?

Edited August 22, 2014 by Astynax

[Gnar 26]

I guess I just want talents to be more clear and fun like the AD, KJC, MF tree. You can really play with those and find the best one for you and see a real difference in DPS. I'd hate to see another fail tier like the Grimoire tier which can only be fucked up if you don't select a Grimoire. if it takes numbers to understand a talent then I'll wait to see it but I feel like the talents should have reworks considered if they can't stand alone and be understood in their purpose in your rotation without numbers.

[Astynax 24]

I guess I just want talents to be more clear and fun like the AD, KJC, MF tree. You can really play with those and find the best one for you and see a real difference in DPS. I'd hate to see another fail tier like the Grimoire tier which can only be fucked up if you don't select a Grimoire. if it takes numbers to understand a talent then I'll wait to see it but I feel like the talents should have reworks considered if they can't stand alone and be understood in their purpose in your rotation without numbers.

I think you might not be looking in the right place if you're looking for "What's the purpose of these talents? Where's the fun in them?" Not that we all don't love our demonic, corrupted little selves, but Zag is not really likely to come on here and tell you to use MF because "it's neat-o!" Hell, I can't think of any of the fight's I've done on progression where MF felt like it would help me. If I ever used it, it was because we had the fight down pat, and I wanted to Cheese the meters.

I mean this next thing in the nicest way possible.... What the hell is your definition of "fun" if you think that AD, MF, and KJC are "fun"? One is an entirely passive bonus that just makes your rotation easy to keep up on the move. The other two are just an extra CD button, and one of them has to be tracked.... This is definitely not nearly as entertaining to me as "Yeah, look at this badass demon I keep out all the time!! Suck on that hunters!" even if it is a totally thoughtless bonus.

Personally, and in saying this I'm willing to wager I can speak for most of the regulars I know from this forum, I don't really give a crap if each end tier talent "can be understood without numbers" or "has a clear place for it to be best used, and made most efficient." Like I said, I never REALLY used MF. Maybe it was great for Paragon or Method or something, but if that's the case, I haven't heard of it. I'm far more interested in what is powerful, and when it is powerful. AD would be awesome without numbers, if you assumed the numbers were 3 extra charges or something. When I spec for a fight, I'm going to use whatever best fits the fight, and if there's not a big differential and/or my raid doesn't need me to do something specific, I'm going to have a "best DPS" one I default to. The game is tuned that way, and always will be. The idea that there won't be one that is situationally dominant on DPS is just not the way this game has ever worked. If you want to just have fun with it, IDK that the locks here, or the regulars anyway, are your best sounding board for that idea.

[Zilthy 36]

I guess I just want talents to be more clear and fun like the AD, KJC, MF tree. You can really play with those and find the best one for you and see a real difference in DPS. I'd hate to see another fail tier like the Grimoire tier which can only be fucked up if you don't select a Grimoire. if it takes numbers to understand a talent then I'll wait to see it but I feel like the talents should have reworks considered if they can't stand alone and be understood in their purpose in your rotation without numbers.

 

I am not sure what your point on the Grimoire tier is... that tier is not really so much about overall damage and numbers, but it is about utility, and that makes sense.

 

For example, as Destruction I will most often go with Sacrifice.  It's convenient, better with KTT, ....

Sometimes I will go with Supremecy, mostly when doing timeless isle, things like that

Sometimes I will go with Sacrifice.  Sacrifice as Destro?  What oddness is this???  Sometimes, that extra bit of utility (an extra stun, disarm, etc) is needed (pvp)

 

So, I disagree on that being a fail tier.  I think it is a very good tier, and gives me the option to choose according to my situation.  Exactly what a tier should be.

[Gnar 26]

I'd say I'm pretty regular on these forums...

I don't come to this forum for Zag to tell me things, I come for the community to tell me things and vise versa. Zag just happens to be hella active since he is a mod and all and his help is appreciated.

Regardless, you clearly have never played Demo as MF is half the fights since the UVLS nerf. The damage Immo Aura does is disgustingly large. It's fun in the way that you can actually plan your maximization there. Compare kill speed, decide the amount of RNG you want to account for, and pick the talent that you want to use. It feels like that fun wont be present in T100 because it doesn't appear to have a strong ST ability for Destro that doesn't also happen to be passive bonus. This led me to question the other abilities and I got the answer I needed saying it wasn't tuned so we can't tell. I just believe talents should cover all the bases in a tier and not necessarily be 1 and done like MF but more like AD where it can be a gain both ST or MT making you think before you pick in that tier.

You are right the Grimoire tier is not useless. It is the utility tier but I was describing it from the DPS perspective. You can stand in shit a little more or CC a little more so GCD's are saved at times. Basically, remove what I said about that tier, it is fun to plan how you use it to survive especially mixing it with T45. And I switch it more than any other talent I just hate people that try to number crunch the tier.

[Zagam 1,982]

Until number tuning comes, it's hard to say what spec fills what role.  It also largely goes into encounter design.  If there's a phase of a fight where you have to nuke 4 adds down super fast, I'm going to go with Destruction.  If there's a phase where there are two targets, Affliction might be what's up.  If it's pure ST, Demo might win.  Who knows.  They may blow up Affliction and make Warlocks hate life.  Affliction is going to be so ridiculously boring that if it's the top DPS spec, Warlocks are going to be like 'uh, is this all we have to do to be good?'  Boom, Flavor of the Month status again. 

 

Fun is a subjective term.  Lots of people have come to this thread to argue what is fun or not, and those points really need to be prefaced with "what I personally find fun is..." instead of trying to explain what fun is as if it was objective and applicable to all.  The reason we are playing Warlocks is because WE find it fun.  You wouldn't want a Mage to tell you why they think Warlocks are fun...well, yes you would, but hopefully the point is received.  Value comes from your personal experience, knowledge, and ability to adapt into roles.  No raid group or guild is made equal.  People tend to forget that when they consider certain talents.  Someone may see me using KJC on Siegecrafter and think I'm stupid for not taking AD.  Little do they know that I've personally assigned myself to do 80% of the damage to all of the Crawler Mines as well as 100% of the damage to the Overcharged Crawler Mines.  Because of this, KJC suits me better than a small DPS boost because moving and casting Incinerate on Crawler Mines beats having 30% more damage from a Chaos Bolt I can't cast because of a mine focusing on me.  Doing 30k less DPS to me is just fine if all the mines are handled with ease and no one has to run out of their place to help with them or CC them.

 

We need to stop with the "Sky is Falling" mantra and remember that we'll be fine.  If you don't like Warlocks or Grimoire of Service or Mannoroth's Fury, don't play it, pick it, or use it.  Even when there is an "optimal" choice, it's usually marginally better than a sub-optimal choice.  Take for example my use of GoSup as Destro over GoSac.  GoSac comes out 1% better - so naturally the community shouts "IF YOU'RE NOT USING GOSAC YOU'RE BAD!"  No you're not.  Maybe using my Imp is more fun to me!  What's the real difference between 455k DPS as Sacrifice or 448k DPS as Supremacy.  Did I REALLY change anything in the fight to a significant degree?  Or, just to continue the ride on the Siegecrafter comparison, I take Supremacy on this fight because I can leave my Imp on Siegecrafter while I handle the mines.  I've found it to be a DPS gain FOR ME with MY STRATEGY.  I wouldn't tell people that Supremacy is a DPS gain, even though it is for me.  Everyone has to just relax and realize that Blizzard has gotten really good at making talents decisions again and not absolutes.  Having a difference of 1-2% isn't going to even make you noticeably worse.  It's also not going to make you noticeably better. 

 

WoD is still coming, and there are still MANY changes coming, whether they are small or not.  There are tons of combinations to come, whether it's AD vs KJC vs MF or the new 100 talent or even what spec to play.  I can promise you that even if something is deemed "bad" that it really won't be that bad.  Just to show you what I mean, go on the official forums and read peoples' opinions about Demonology.  It's not BAD, but because it's 5% behind Aff or Destro according to some log, people say it sucks.  Doing 95% of an incredibly high number is never a bad thing. 

 

TL;DR - The sky is NOT falling, Warlocks will be fine, quit defining "fun" in your terms, and buckle up for the ride into WoD.  We will be fine.

[Niix 169]

 

TL;DR - The sky is NOT falling, Warlocks will be fine, quit defining "fun" in your terms, and buckle up for the ride into WoD.  We will be fine.

 

This is what everybody needs to realize. Contrary to popular belief, Blizzard knows what they are doing. Things will change, but until we see numbers there is no reason to get into a tizzy. If you look at the beta, and at the top of the DPS charts. You see frost mages by a huge amount. Think that's going to make it into the final release? Doubtful. Nobody would complain if that was warlocks at the top of the charts. Blizzard is going to balance things a lot better this time around. The damage numbers are smaller, therefore we will see less of a difference between top of the charts and bottom of the charts.

 

The most important thing to remember is that this is a game. If you're not having fun with your class, maybe it's time to switch classes. If you want to be ridiculously overpowered like warlocks this tier, you might want to go back to what class you played before warlock, because while they will still be good, they will not be as OP as they were this tier.

[Zilthy 36]

DON'T PANIC!

 

There we go.  In large friendly letters even.

Now if I could just find my towel....

Edited August 23, 2014 by Zilthy

[Jessix 0]

Ugh...the Blizz Warlock forums is almost nothing but wailing and moaning about the loss of Fel Flame. There are cool constructive nuggets in there, but the conversation regresses back to wanting to cast something while moving (or wanting Shadow Bolt back as Affliction D:).

 

I feel like this community of Warlocks is pretty level-headed for the most part and could have a positive impact on the WoW forums. I don't plan to go back over there until a numbers pass, but a few good voices could really change the conversation for the better.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Ugh...the Blizz Warlock forums is almost nothing but wailing and moaning about the loss of Fel Flame. There are cool constructive nuggets in there, but the conversation regresses back to wanting to cast something while moving (or wanting Shadow Bolt back as Affliction D:).

 

I feel like this community of Warlocks is pretty level-headed for the most part and could have a positive impact on the WoW forums. I don't plan to go back over there until a numbers pass, but a few good voices could really change the conversation for the better.

 

 

Blizz forums are evil.

 

My slap hand tingles when I think about those forums.

[Zagam 1,982]

I don't go to Blizzard forums or MMO-Champ.  The atmosphere of both feels too erratic and standoffish.  I like my comfy place here.

[Astynax 24]

I don't go to Blizzard forums or MMO-Champ.  The atmosphere of both feels too erratic and standoffish.  I like my comfy place here.

*Cheers music starts playing in the background as Zagam stares off wistfully into the distance at nothing in particular....

[Liquidsteel 279]

I love Icy Veins, but even if you don't post or get involved over at MMO-C (it can be hard work sometimes with trolls), there is still a wealth of information to be gleaned from it.

 

I certainly learned a ton of stuff there that I didn't find here, and I think it's nice to have that balance.

[Twinkielock 15]

Since the days of reforging are over, is the next debate going to be what class brings .1% more DPS?

[Zagam 1,982]

I love Icy Veins, but even if you don't post or get involved over at MMO-C (it can be hard work sometimes with trolls), there is still a wealth of information to be gleaned from it.

 

I certainly learned a ton of stuff there that I didn't find here, and I think it's nice to have that balance.

Oh, I browse there for news and stuff.  I sometimes I go to read up on stuff, but most of the time, you or others bring that info here.  I just consider you guys my ambassadors who bring the good and leave the bad.

[Janglybits 1]

I love Icy Veins, but even if you don't post or get involved over at MMO-C (it can be hard work sometimes with trolls), there is still a wealth of information to be gleaned from it.

 

I certainly learned a ton of stuff there that I didn't find here, and I think it's nice to have that balance.

I like visiting both, although I'm selective about what I read over there, whereas I read everything in the Lock forum here.  I really appreciate Zinnin's Demo posts and Brusalk's stuff on Destro.  I wish we could get them to head over this way.

[Zilthy 36]

I like MMO-Champion too, although I am not active there, I do read now and then.  My biggest issue with the bnet forums is actually the far too many caustic and toxic elements there.

 

I know remember Zag warning about a log review being brutally honest, and true to his word:  70% uptime on Doom?  Horrible!

 

But, there is a world of difference between that, and the type of stuff that goes on in the bnet forums.  I have yet to see anyone here refer to someone else as incompetent, loser or baddie (that one is a pet peeve of mine.  are we 4 years old?) or anything of the like.

[Sifon 25]

I also visit MMO-Champ forums but I almost never post there. Issue with bnet and mmo-c forums is simply more people, it is like a cozy small house in here where other forums are huge convention centers where everybody speaks and mourns and argues about stuff. Also more people speaking means less refined content.

 

Although I don't have beta access yet(killed garrosh just after last wave of invites :/), I really want something to do while moving as destro. I don't mind going meta and spending some fury as demo or even recasting my dots as affli but you cannot cast anything unless you save conflag charges for conditional movement.

[Alphric 7]

I like MMO-Champ's warlock transmog thread.

[vaeevictiss 17]

I think the general consensus here is....

 

[Zagam 1,982]

It's a natural human reaction to be resistant to any change until experience of the change has been gained.  The profession I work in involves improving processes and cutting waste out when possible.  One of my internships involved going down into a coal mine and looking at how coal miners did their job.  When I found out 6 of them could do the job 11 were currently doing, let's just say that news wasn't well received.  Even worse was when I told them I found them a faster route in the mine so they could get to work faster and leave the job site later within their shift.  Sometimes, you found a process that would make someone's life easier.  Try telling a guy who's been doing something for 20-30 years how to do it better and he'll tell you where to shove your analysis. 

 

Point is - people resist change, even if it's a positive effect.  Once everything gets put into action, the chatter will slow down, the theoreticals become actuals, and we will all be ok.