wow Jailer Attack Cutscene Showcases More of His Brilliance

[Liebanana 4]

3 hours ago, Logarithm said:

And some of us are tired of having that BS pushed down our throats at every turn. Stop letting 0.1% of the population control the narrative of everything.

u are bald

[Swarf 110]

Danuser should be reassigned to janitorial duties and replaced with someone worthy of the position who recognizes the damage this atrociously awful writing has done to the game. 

It's maddening that this company, for all its wealth and resources, seemingly refuses to recognize the importance of good writing.  It's disheartening and at times just infuriating.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Swarf

[Pandabuffel 184]

9 minutes ago, Liebanana said:

u are bald

W...what? What's going on here?

 

[Liebanana 4]

3 hours ago, Halock said:

I thought Pelagos' trans thing was done well. I liked it. I liked it because it was subtle. It almost worked within the setting. I didn't relate to it, but I was pleased for some people I know who I thought might.

But I dislike the fact he has become the arbiter. It's too massive a coincidence. It's too central a post. It moves it from subtle to wildly unsubtle. 

 

I am just to tired of u all proving my point trying to justify why dont u like pelagos as the arbiter bc it does not make sense with the lore bla bla, wich I can agree with u all. The point here my guy is what u just wrote, u expect minorities to be subtle, u can tolerate that, the problem is when it moves from subtle to wildly unsubtle then it bothers u... Probably pelagos does not fit the role of the arbiter lorewise, u can have that opinion and u might be right tbh I dont care, the thing is that ppl are using super inteligent argumentations about lore good writing, good story telling, etc...  just to hide the thing that they dont like a minority playing an important role, its just sad to see. 

Man I love Wow but I hate how the comunity can be super respectful in game like 0 toxicity compared to other games nowdays and then being autentic a* when it comes to include representation of different ppl that I know that u hate to hear it but they exist :0

Im not arguing anymore with any of u, from now on its all gonna be personal insults. Take care!!

 

[Teufel 331]

1 hour ago, FelPlagued said:

no one goes directly to the maw, so the arbiter did not make a mistake. anyone evil goes to revendreth, there they are given 1 final chance for redemption. so no it was not the arbiter messing up.

I might need your source on this, because I double-checked the wiki and it states very few souls are sent into the Maw right away, but there are some.

Regardless, what I meant is during the SoD encounter Garrosh is unrepentant as ever, even after some time in Venthyr custody. Personally, while Garrosh has his share of atrocities, some of the reasons for them are somewhat noble in nature, rather than just desire to kill, kill and kill, I think Revendreth suits him.

[Teufel 331]

1 hour ago, Liebanana said:

Man I love Wow but I hate how the comunity can be super respectful in game like 0 toxicity compared to other games nowdays and then being autentic a* when it comes to include representation of different ppl that I know that u hate to hear it but they exist :0

Let me blow your mind then, since you don't seem to consider this possibility, which I honestly find amusing among the "woke" crowd.

I do get "represented" myself in the majority of media as a minority, and ~80% of the time I see it, I wish I did not, because those are nothing more but bland token characters who are narratively built exclusively around their minority status, rather than about the characters they are. These kind of "representations" exist only to fill in the checklist of the creators, regardless of how absurd it may look (i.e. 7-ppl main cast in a normal American everyday work environment, of whom only one does not belong in any kind of minority. What are the effin odds?)

And I'm FAR from being alone in this. Representation such as Dorian Pavus from DA:I is more than good, even if it takes some thinking in to realize why, representation such as Pelagos? They can just F off and make Kevin the Arbiter, at least he'll be fed.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Teufel

[Logarithm 40]

2 hours ago, Liebanana said:

u are bald

And your point on that is....? I did not attack any part of you or your appearance. Want me to start? A lot there to unpack.

[Logarithm 40]

2 hours ago, Pandabuffel said:

W...what? What's going on here?

 

A totally mentally stable person, obviously.

[FelPlagued 13]

1 hour ago, Teufel said:

I might need your source on this, because I double-checked the wiki and it states very few souls are sent into the Maw right away, but there are some.

Regardless, what I meant is during the SoD encounter Garrosh is unrepentant as ever, even after some time in Venthyr custody. Personally, while Garrosh has his share of atrocities, some of the reasons for them are somewhat noble in nature, rather than just desire to kill, kill and kill, I think Revendreth suits him.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Absolution_of_Souls
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ritual_of_Judgment
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ritual_of_Absolution

All souls are given one final chance at redemption within revendreth, if not they are sent to the maw. no one goes directly to the maw, all of them go to revendreth for one final chance, and if they don't they are sent to the maw. even said by deanthrius himself.
"It is through your faithful work

that even the most evil and prideful beings

may ultimately be spared an eternity in the Maw."
They are given 1 final chance, because sending people to an eternity of torment with no warning is harsh, so the shadowlands gives them a final chance to attone for their sins, and if they really knowing what is coming for them, still cannot and will not, then in they go.

 

[FelPlagued 13]

5 hours ago, Halock said:

Firstly, my old chap, you want to cut down the personal attacks. Arguing for goodness while using bitter words will undermine you. 

But your point --

Had I written the story, Pelagos nor anybody else would be trans. I am therefore probably a good, if more realistic, version of whoever you mean by republican grandpas.

I thought Pelagos' trans thing was done well. I liked it. I liked it because it was subtle. It almost worked within the setting. I didn't relate to it, but I was pleased for some people I know who I thought might.

But I dislike the fact he has become the arbiter. It's too massive a coincidence. It's too central a post. It moves it from subtle to wildly unsubtle. 

Meanwhile, although the base logic for it as a conclusion to his story work... It doesn't work excellently. It doesn't make me feel anything. It's kinda humdrum. And I think that magnifies the issue.

Had it been told really well I could have swallowed the extremely fortuitous coincidence that our first trans character has also happened to replace one of the central icons of SL, the lore-wise center. 

But it wasn't. So I struggle. Not because of any wild political reasons but just because it feels terribly suspiciously like outside motivations (and I don't care what they are!) have invaded the game's storytelling. 

And mushed an okay character in the process.

literally the ONLY reason its unsubtle is because people like you are making a MASSIVE deal out of it, blizzard themselves literally left it as an extremely offhanded comment, they dont make this big shpeel about how oh a trans character is becoming this and that and all that!' it literally is only mentioned once, in an extremely offhanded mention, to the point unless people like you were not making a big deal out of it, no one would know or care.

 

a character who is trans that is simply a side character is becoming a main focus for... 5 minutes. and that to you is some big "OH THEY PUSHING TRANS SUPERIOTIY" THING.

THE PERFECT EXAMPLE of how you let your true colours shine is how you say almost word for word "trans people holding places of importance is stupid"

[Starym 3,800]

6 hours ago, Grumar said:

Pelagos is actually a terrible choice, it reminds me of all the the end of Cats where the one cat who just wanted to belong and have friends got what she wanted just to be sent off and die.  Pelagic just went through a journey of self discovery (not that majority of player base would know that since his story was locked behind covs) just to be striped of who he was to become the Arbiter. Talk about a shaggy dog story. 

Also side note not sure why people keep calling him trans. He's a male character who thinks they are male. Past lives amount to nothing, I promise you Hindus and other religions do not consider themselves all trans based on past lives. 

Why would he be stripped of who he was? Did you see the curscene? He's very much himself and will imbue his personality and spirit into all the decisions on which soul goes where. You may not like the job (I sure don't either 😄 ) but he does and finds purpose in it, doesn't really matter what we want for him.

4 hours ago, Teufel said:

Wasn't it?

The only time the machine Arbiter made a mistake was Garrosh, who doesn't feel repentant even after all his time in Revendreth, which would mean his destination was the Maw. And even then older Venthyr claim that soul being absolved of their sins takes eons, so they might just have not get a proper go at him. You are also shown, which is the case with Mograine, that the machine Arbiter is capable of nuanced approach.

All the "messed up afterlives" you've mentioned are also the result of Zovaal's and Denathrius' machinations which followed the Arbiter breaking because suddenly it was forced to process a soul of a Titan, which not only had no place in the Shadowlands, but the Arbiter wasn't built for it in the first place.

But it's intended job? It was doing just fine for millenia, and it never had a chance of suffering a mental breakdown... which Pelagos has, for he does not show the qualities of being willful and impartial, to add to his lack of understanding of the Shadowlands' many worlds, which are essential for what Arbiter should be doing.

Ps: for the record, even Lady Moonberry in a chapter of 9.1 had a better go of being an actual Venthyr, which just further diminishes Pelagos' interaction with other covenants.

Disagree there. The Anima drought just showed the underlying problems that were there the whole time. The Kyrian wiping out memories isn't anything new, the drought just gave motivation to the disenfranchised (and Uther's arrival for Devos), all the problems were there for millenia - the Jailer would not have gotten allies if they weren't. And to me that shows that the entire system was flawed and the Arbiter was part of it, which when you think about it makes sense - it was NEVER meant to be the one that selects souls, it was supposed to be Zovaal who the Eternal ones (who we know for a fact are fallible - see Kyrestia and Denathrius AND the Winter Queen AND the Primus' actions before and during Shadowlands) just stripped of his First Ones-given position and orb thingy.

Whether you think Pelagos was the right choice or not, it's 100% clear the Arbiter was NOT working well, it simply was never part of the plan or "purpose", when Zovaal was put in shackles it all went to hell. And now that I write this I'm even MORE MAD at how good the fucking story could have been................................... DDAAAAAMMMNN YOOOUUUU for reminding me :d

[Teufel 331]

1 hour ago, FelPlagued said:

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Absolution_of_Souls
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ritual_of_Judgment
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ritual_of_Absolution

All souls are given one final chance at redemption within revendreth, if not they are sent to the maw. no one goes directly to the maw, all of them go to revendreth for one final chance, and if they don't they are sent to the maw. even said by deanthrius himself.
"It is through your faithful work

that even the most evil and prideful beings

may ultimately be spared an eternity in the Maw."
They are given 1 final chance, because sending people to an eternity of torment with no warning is harsh, so the shadowlands gives them a final chance to attone for their sins, and if they really knowing what is coming for them, still cannot and will not, then in they go.

 

Hm... Far from being solid proof, since the only thing supporting this claim is Denathrius' speech, and he is quite eloquent in that, but... possible, even if unlikely, to be the case. Thanks for your effort.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Teufel

[Teufel 331]

25 minutes ago, Starym said:

Disagree there. The Anima drought just showed the underlying problems that were there the whole time. The Kyrian wiping out memories isn't anything new, the drought just gave motivation to the disenfranchised (and Uther's arrival for Devos), all the problems were there for millenia - the Jailer would not have gotten allies if they weren't. And to me that shows that the entire system was flawed and the Arbiter was part of it, which when you think about it makes sense - it was NEVER meant to be the one that selects souls, it was supposed to be Zovaal who the Eternal ones (who we know for a fact are fallible - see Kyrestia and Denathrius AND the Winter Queen AND the Primus' actions before and during Shadowlands) just stripped of his First Ones-given position and orb thingy.

Whether you think Pelagos was the right choice or not, it's 100% clear the Arbiter was NOT working well, it simply was never part of the plan or "purpose", when Zovaal was put in shackles it all went to hell. And now that I write this I'm even MORE MAD at how good the *filtered* story could have been................................... DDAAAAAMMMNN YOOOUUUU for reminding me :d

While there is plenty of truth here, we're talking specifically about the Arbiter. Their purpose is distributing souls, and if the FOs put Zovaal on the job, only for him to go mad down the road, that doesn't nessecerily (spelling?) mean the entire thing is flawed, it might as well be Zovaal's inability to be impartial and casting his judgement on the FOs himself. Basically, having an opinion.

So is putting an impartial Arbiter incapable of misjudgement and simply doing their job... an improvement of the system FO intended by the hands of the Eternals? Especially since prototypes exist that are supposedly even more strict and extreme in what they represent, and possibly would be closer to how FOs originally intended Shadowlands to be?

Basically what I'm saying the change of the flawed system might have happened already, when the created evolved beyond their creators' design.

And well, Kyrian is more or less the only example of a change in the Covenants' purpose, even if it is not a major one in the long run. Maldraxxi just got reunited, WQ renewed her bond with Elune, Venthyr decided to lessen their chances of being overwhelmed by sin like the Sire was by splitting his duty among many. And I don't see how reinstallimg the mechanical Arbiter would not work just as good, if not better than probability of history repeating itself.

PS: Feel ya with all the wasted pontential and philosophical narrative we could have gotten.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Teufel

[Starym 3,800]

14 minutes ago, Teufel said:

While there is plenty of truth here, we're talking specifically about the Arbiter. Their purpose is distributing souls, and if the FOs put Zovaal on the job, only for him to go mad down the road, that doesn't nessecerily (spelling?) mean the entire thing is flawed, it might as well be Zovaal's inability to be impartial and casting his judgement on the FOs himself. Basically, having an opinion.

So is putting an impartial Arbiter incapable of misjudgement and simply doing their job... an improvement of the system FO intended by the hands of the Eternals? Especially since prototypes exist that are supposedly even more strict and extreme in what they represent, and possibly would be closer to how FOs originally intended Shadowlands to be?

Basically what I'm saying the change of the flawed system might have happened already, when the created evolved beyond their creators' design.

And well, Kyrian is more or less the only example of a change in the Covenants' purpose, even if it is not a major one in the long run. Maldraxxi just got reunited, WQ renewed her bond with Elune, Venthyr decided to lessen their chances of being overwhelmed by sin like the Sire was by splitting his duty among many. And I don't see how reinstallimg the mechanical Arbiter would not work just as good, if not better than probability of history repeating itself.

PS: Feel ya with all the wasted pontential and philosophical narrative we could have gotten.

I guess it's all a little up in the air vis-a-vis WHEN it all started going to hell. We don't really know if Zovaal was a good Arbiter either I guess, so it's a little moot for me to say the mechanical one started the problems (but it is presented that way at least a little). It's just logical to me that the distribution of souls was messed up if the Covenants kept stale and broken until Zovaal created the drought and pushed all their problems to the forefront. Meaning if the right souls were sent to the Kyrian, Venthyr and Night Fae, these issues would have been brought up earlier (like what ALMOST happens with Devos, except she was also too weak to push back against the Archon).

Again, this is all REALLY interesting to me and just makes me more and more mad at what we got instead, armor boy breaking all the toys so he can play with them in his way... SIGH.

[Calorat 78]

Amazing how free-to-play mobile games like Genshin Impact have better and deeper writing than a (former) Juggernaut like Blizzard.  How the mighty have fallen.

[Solonar 2]

5 hours ago, Calorat said:

Amazing how free-to-play mobile games like Genshin Impact have better and deeper writing than a (former) Juggernaut like Blizzard.  How the mighty have fallen.

Blizzard was never good at writing. Warcraft always had holes in its armor.

[Borgoff33 101]

in the next xpac they will reveal the REAL mastermind behind all of this and IT WILL BE THE MOST HORRID CREATURE OF ALL!! ...a bunny.. and thats what you should expect from the *filtered* writer team they have now my gods its sooo bad

[Arcling 898]

15 hours ago, Solonar said:

Blizzard was never good at writing. Warcraft always had holes in its armor.

It worked well enough when most stories were rather simple. But once they started adding villains and events that weren't originally there, they created many plot holes (like in The Frozen Throne campaign, Dreadlords fighting Kel'Thuzad now make little sense, since they were all "revealed" to be working for Jailer all this time).

Edited January 7, 2022 by Arcling

[FelPlagued 13]

On 1/6/2022 at 5:17 AM, Andser said:

Mograine? Draka? Ka'el? Some random goat from Ardenweald? or even Uther?

All of those charecters have their bias's pelagos does not.

[Andser 34]

On 2/16/2022 at 6:47 AM, FelPlagued said:

All of those charecters have their bias's pelagos does not.

implying the tabula rasa philosophy is real