Heroic Garrosh - Havoc Fail

[Gnar 26]

Been a while since I last wrote but new job has been pretty intense.  Guild finally made it to Heroic Garrosh.

 

I have a problem though and logs to back it up.  I'm using glyphed Havoc on Garrosh and then shitting on the first wave of adds with Shadowburn when they are close to dying.  Look up at my auras, 6 charges left on Havoc.  DA FUQ...

 

Huge damage losses and repeated testing showed it wasn't just a one fight glitch. I'd like to know if any others have had this issue.  I have already submitted a ticket as well but if you have similar problems, please submit as well.

[Lockybalboa 618]

Using a macro for it and it failing is a known bug. Outside of that idk.

[Zagam 1,982]

Been a while since I last wrote but new job has been pretty intense.  Guild finally made it to Heroic Garrosh.

 

I have a problem though and logs to back it up.  I'm using glyphed Havoc on Garrosh and then shitting on the first wave of adds with Shadowburn when they are close to dying.  Look up at my auras, 6 charges left on Havoc.  DA FUQ...

 

Huge damage losses and repeated testing showed it wasn't just a one fight glitch. I'd like to know if any others have had this issue.  I have already submitted a ticket as well but if you have similar problems, please submit as well.

Not really sure I'm identifying what you're trying to explain.  You're using Shadowburn with Havoc up and claiming to have used charges, but the Aura remained with all 6 charges?  How exactly are you seeing the number of charges remaining in the logs?  I'm very curious to see that. 

 

I've never once had an issue with the Glyph not giving and consuming all 6 charges on any fight, especially Heroic Garrosh where I get two Chaos Bolts off with it, 2 hitting the engineer and 2 hitting Garrosh. 

 

Before you ask others to submit bugs and claim you have logs to prove it, please provide such logs so they can be analyzed.

[Liquidsteel 279]

It's a known bug that's been around for over a year.

 

It occurs when you Havoc your target, and use a mouseover shadowburn macro on other adds. It will fail to copy the shadowburns across.

 

Below is the macro which will fix this for you. Note that whilst it includes /cleartarget, nothing is ever actually deselected on on your UI, so there are no target loss issues you might think you need to worry about. Just carry on as normal.

 

#showtooltip

/stopcasting

/cleartarget [@mouseover,harm,nodead]

/use [@mouseover,harm,nodead][] Shadowburn

/targetlasttarget [@mouseover,harm,nodead]

[Gnar 26]

At work now so I can't test this but it seems to fit properly. I recently swapped to mouseover SB because it's getting harder and harder to snipe. Didn't know about the bug so thanks for the info and solution. I thought I noticed it bugging on other fights but it was much more apparent on progression than farm. Thanks again.

[Zagam 1,982]

I never experienced this because I don't use mouseover.  How is mouseover a benefit for you guys using it over binding it?  Mine is bound to mouse-5 which is where my thumb rests on my mouse - so it's left click mob, press thumb for Shadowburn.  Does a mouseover prevent you from having to target something similar to healing?

[Gnar 26]

Yeppers, you just aim and fire just like healing. I have it on Naga 3. You have to turn on nameplates if for some reason you don't use them and have a good feel for where 20% is. It can be helpful for Shadowburn and Havoc in particular. The advantage is that you have to do one less thing before you cast. Basically, you lose time when you are required to target first and then hit your attack. It's not a lot of time in most cases (<1sec) but its still time. Also, it's one less moving part. There is also no drawback because if by chance you put your cursor in the wrong spot, you are no worse off because a "targeter" would have failed to target all the same. And mouseover Havoc is just a given since you rarely want to target you Havoc'd target right after you Havoc. All a preference thing.

[Zagam 1,982]

I don't think it's any time if you are pre-emptive about it and switch targets while finishing a cast on previous target since this doesn't interrupt it.  I'd actually argue that I lose zero time finding targets to Shadowburn.

[Gnar 26]

It's a preference and again it's less than a second in most cases and even less than that with a good player. For me I see the advantage as not having to do something preemptively. If I pick an add on Garrosh for example, it might be the last add to hit 20% and I could lose time or charges there if I don't switch beforehand. Using mouseover, I can stay on Garrosh to cleave without him dying and my cast failing, and I can immediately hit whatever add I see low. Best part is that even if mouseover gets me the wrong target, I'm not stuck figuring it out later and worrying about targeting, I can just spam one button until I hit the mob.

[Zagam 1,982]

Yeah, I can see your side.  So the issue comes from the mouseover...I wonder why that doesn't activate it.  I never knew it existed.

[Gnar 26]

Haven't made sure thats the problem but it seems to fit the case well. I should have noticed much sooner when Noru Havoc'd adds didn't refund me embers. Bugs are bugs and I'm glad I brought it to this forum to find a work around.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Depends how many there are. On something like Garrosh, all i need to do is wave my mousearound furiously and I will ping off shadowburns on anything that is under 20%. When you have less than 3 seconds before all mobs are dead, it's invaluable.

 

Similarly, if you switch to say shadowburn an add on spoils behind you, and your previous target is dragged off screen, it can be a pain.

[Kazistrasz 216]

I've honestly never seen that issue, and I use Shadowburn on mouseover all the time. Hell, that's part of why my Thok parses are as high as they are: Havoc the big jerk and start Shadowburning all the bats using said mouseover.

 

Also, I like mouseover because it's more efficient. One input to do the job of two is more comfortable on the hands on a long day or night. Also, I just react quicker with it when a mob's health plummets faster than expected (especially in 10man where one person's proc is a huge swing) and I don't have to worry about getting the click in to target first.

 

Edit: Also, being able to just wave the mouse around spamming the button rather than finding and clicking them does make it a little more carefree, especially if you just don't care which add you kill cause you're trying to kill them all.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Yeah but you are most likely targetting the bats for FnB spam and Havocing the boss.

 

The bug occurs when you havoc your current target and mouseover shadowburn different targets. At least that's what I recall.

 

Honestly it's been over a year since I encountered it because I switched to the aforementioned macro once it was revealed by Brusalk over at MMO-C, so my memory is a little rusty, but I haven't encountered it since.

[Zagam 1,982]

You guys ever hear of a focus macro?  Set Thok as focus and make the following...

 

/tar Focus

/cast Havoc

/targetlasttarget

 

Any time you use Havoc, boom, right on your focus target.  Set Thok as Focus and you remove the need to even worry about moving your mouse at all.

[JvChequer 43]

Btw, if u are not doing just u plus a tank an add pack with average gear, u don't need Havoc glyphed, it's an dps loss on phase 2 and 3 - where dmg really matters.

Edited July 11, 2014 by JvChequer

[Liquidsteel 279]

You guys ever hear of a focus macro?  Set Thok as focus and make the following...

 

/tar Focus

/cast Havoc

/targetlasttarget

 

Any time you use Havoc, boom, right on your focus target.  Set Thok as Focus and you remove the need to even worry about moving your mouse at all.

Yeah of course we use that. That's how when you're AoEing the bats, you hit your Havoc macro and it puts it on the boss, then you wave your mouse around the bats and shadowburn them all.

 

 

Btw, if u are not doing just u plus a tank an add pack with average gear, u don't need Havoc glyphed, it's an dps loss on phase 2 and 3 - where dmg really matters.

Yeah I stopped using the glyph once we moved to 25 man.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Liquidsteel

[Gnar 26]

Haven't gotten to P2 yet and this helps ensure we get to see the transition for now but regardless I would use unglyphed Havoc the same way. Also, my mouseover Havoc has a focus shift mod or you can just mouseover the boss frame if you use boss frames.

[Zagam 1,982]

Btw, if u are not doing just u plus a tank an add pack with average gear, u don't need Havoc glyphed, it's an dps loss on phase 2 and 3 - where dmg really matters.

How so?  You can use a glyphed version to generate extra embers every 60 seconds which often lines up with other CDs.  I keep Havoc glyphed on every fight.  I don't think it could ever be perceived as an actual DPS loss if you know how to set up and utilize 6 stacks instead of 3.

[Liquidsteel 279]

How so?  You can use a glyphed version to generate extra embers every 60 seconds which often lines up with other CDs.  I keep Havoc glyphed on every fight.  I don't think it could ever be perceived as an actual DPS loss if you know how to set up and utilize 6 stacks instead of 3.

If you Glyph it then you kinda have to save it for intermission one, and I doubt you get off 6 shadowburns on the first pack unless your raid lets you.

 

Unglyphed it comes up for the wolf rider, allowing you to copy 3 shadowburns to the boss, and is up again for intermission.

 

You can then use it on cooldown to fuel ember generation throughout the fight, and you lose uptime with the glyph as the cooldown is more than double.

[Zagam 1,982]

To counter your points...

 

1 - don't need 6 Shadowburns for Intermission 1. 

2 - our Wolf Rider dies without me even touching it.  I can MAYBE sneak in a Shadowburn, but there's no way I'm getting 2 or even 3.

3. You're only losing 10 seconds every minute in terms of utilization with Havoc.  Desecrates come often enough that you can time it with either - so the only way you're ACTUALLY losing is if you get an entire extra Havoc during a proc than you would not have.  It's completely worthless in P4 and VERY spotty in P3. 

 

I actually don't think it's a measureable DPS loss like most say.  What, maybe 1k?  Relative to what we push, it's absolutely under 1%. 

 

TL;DR - Glyphing or not glyphing won't make a measureable difference in your DPS.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Oops I meant I doubt you get 6 shadowburns off on the first pack of Warbringers, so it's wasted there, and even one extra shadowburn copied across is decent. You can always include 2 incinerates as well.

 

Are you copying Chaos Bolts or just using it for embers.

 

If Chaos Bolts, then I guess having cooldowns up and timing it would be beneficial, but our strategy means we don't kill weapons. In fact we don't even need to shrink them based on how me move, so all I use Havoc for is a constant stream of embers, and I find unglyphed to be best suited to that.

 

Like you said, it's minor though.

[Gnar 26]

So far, my testing up to p1 gives me time to SB at least four times on first pack with Havoc up and you Havoc like 20 sec into fight maybe for first pack so you only really lose one unglyphed cast if you are saving it for intermission. I'd say its way worth it to use for its SB usage and mega burst in the intermission.

[Liquidsteel 279]

On progress I used the glyph. I could get 3 shadowburns or more on the first pack, and definitely managed the full 6 once or twice, also I felt the burst in intermission one was necessary.

 

Im 15 ilevels higher now than I was when I first killed this boss, as is my raid. Those adds melt in about 5 GCD's for us. Nochance of getting more than 3.

 

I also Havoc the boss 10 seconds in, before the adds come. Switch to FnB and do a bit of that, followed by shadowburn clean up. If you Havoc when adds hit 20% your wasting a bit of time and damage, as the adds will be long dead before the Havoc debuff falls off the boss. Doing it this way can gain you an extra FnB Incinerate or Shadowburn more than if you used Havoc later.

 

It's kind of a moot point because the gains are largely impossible to quantify with glyph vs unglyph, but regardless of your choice, the above tip should help you score some extra damage.

 

I've peaked at over 2M at this phase, going into the intermission at over 1M DPS.

[Zagam 1,982]

Yeah, I keep forgetting for relevancy to what phase you're progressing on.  I used to FnB on my way over to the Engineer, but I can't do that anymore because my guys kill the adds before I can get 5 spells in.  We're VERY close to beating the 2nd Engineer.  And we're using 2 tanks and 2 healers still!