Concern about the state of warlocks in WoD

[Lockybalboa 618]

I'm really starting to get worried.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This happens EVERY Xpack to at least one class. They still haven't done the major numbers fix and they still haven't finished testing. The sky isn't falling. We still have MONTHS before release.

[chrisdux 0]

 

 

 

 

This happens EVERY Xpack to at least one class. They still haven't done the major numbers fix and they still haven't finished testing. The sky isn't falling. We still have MONTHS before release.

 

I'm not so sure even knowing the question would help us in this case. Though we all know the answer is 42...

[Zilthy 36]

I'm not so sure even knowing the question would help us in this case. Though we all know the answer is 42...

 

All I can say is that I have my towel handy.

[Soulzar 42]

Well, Apparently next build features changes to us and Druids....  Brace yourselves!

[Zagam 1,982]

New beta patch has hit the test servers, but still not hint of anything to ease our concerns. Nothing new about affliction spec, mobility issues, fel flame or talents in T90 / T100. I'm really starting to get worried.

I think you have some mild anxiety issues.  Rest assured - Blizz has been doing this a long time.  It's VERY easy to complain about what they're doing - I'm guilty of it as well.  But things will be ok.  Even if we're not at the top, which is ok, we'll still be good.  Adaptation and evolution of Warlocks will be required to handle new styles.  Stay on top of it and you'll be ok. 

[chrisdux 0]

I think you have some mild anxiety issues.  Rest assured - Blizz has been doing this a long time.  It's VERY easy to complain about what they're doing - I'm guilty of it as well.  But things will be ok.  Even if we're not at the top, which is ok, we'll still be good.  Adaptation and evolution of Warlocks will be required to handle new styles.  Stay on top of it and you'll be ok. 

I really don't care about the meters. Of course I'd rather be closer to the top than at the bottom. I just wish for the warlock to continue to be fun in raids. The problem is, at least in my view, that making spec fun to play is much harder than making it do ok dps.

 

However, there's been some Tweet from Rygarius that he's finishing some new patch notes that are bound to be interresting to warlocks. Let us all hope it'll be some good news. Like Fel Flame back and KJC talent changed to something that actually makes sense

Edited August 8, 2014 by chrisdux

[chrisdux 0]

And T100 reworked.

 

Oh, and Affliciton with Shadow Bolt again. That'd be cool as well.

[Zagam 1,982]

Affliction won't get Shadowbolt - don't get your hopes up.  They already removed MG to weave in Drain Soul.  That spec is relatively finished in terms of mechanical play.

 

T100 will be reworked, no doubt.  It's clumsy as shit now.

 

If Fel Flame comes back, that'll put me at 4/4 on saying things removed should come back.  I just wish KJC went away, get a new talent, and KJC became baseline like Spiritwalker's Grace for Shamans.  Give it to Spriests, get rid of that stupid Aspect of the Fox garbage, and call it a day.  All casters would get temporary movement while casting, Hunters wouldn't control it, and we'd have our totem killing, movement spell back.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Make Fel Flame a talent to replace KJC.

 

Make it slightly stronger than it is on live by reducing the mana cost and we're good. Don't tune it to be better than current fillers, but still allow it to interact with Fury/Embers. Maybe even give it a short DoT extension like it used to have.

[chrisdux 0]

Affliction won't get Shadowbolt - don't get your hopes up.

 

Well, if I don't get my hopes up, who is gonna do it for me?

[chrisdux 0]

Ok, so the exciting news for warlocks was that we got drain life removed from Destruction and got Flames of Xoroth back in return. If we keep getting these exciting news any longer, I'm not sure if I can take it... :'(

[Nalar 0]

Ok 1st thing 1st, no matter what people don't like change ..... Period!

We just have to endeavour and get used to the changes, or go play another class!.

For me I'm excited about WoD , some good changes some not so good.

I'm playing demo at the moment without KJC (and why would you in demo spec anyway ).

On paper demonic servitude looks good but realistic practicality , is it good or bad!!.

Time will tell whether blizz have buggered up the class or not, it's still too early to tell methinks.

[Soulzar 42]

Ok, so the exciting news for warlocks was that we got drain life removed from Destruction and got Flames of Xoroth back in return. If we keep getting these exciting news any longer, I'm not sure if I can take it... :'(

 

Yep!  The amazing news was that they gave us a new overpowered lvl 15 ability.. that they will later need to nerf.  

 

Its bugged currently.  50% ember reduction is working, but not the 50% extra heal.  That said, glyphing it produces the normal 100% ember tap heal + The normal glyphed dot version, so healing more than twice as much as it should. 

 

Half an ember giving back almost 130k HP over 10 seconds with half that an upfront direct heal.. yep bit broken.

 

I have a been a huge fan of Ember tap, really hoping this doesn't cause it to get gutted to uselessness.

[chrisdux 0]

Yep!  The amazing news was that they gave us a new overpowered lvl 15 ability.. that they will later need to nerf.  

 

II can imagine with charred remains talent this could be a serious problem.

 

But more to the point, I think there are much more serious concerns with warlocks Blizzard should be focusing on at the moment. Replacing Drain Life for Destruction they can leave for later on.

[vaeevictiss 17]

We, too, have things to cast on the move.  Destruction has Conflagrate, Rain of Fire, and Shadowburn if within execute phase.  Demonology has the lead with Doom, Corruption, Life Tap, and Touch of Chaos while in Meta.  Affliction has Corruption, Life Tap, and Soul Swap.  I'm not sure what you mean when you say you move around with nothing to cast...

 

KJC has been more of a comfort food this expansion as we've gotten comfortable being incredibly mobile which is overpowered as all hell.  KJC NEEDED nerfed.  Skilled Warlocks will learn to save charges of Conflagrate or use Life Tap during periods of movement which should equate to no DPS lost while moving.  Even if there is some loss in movement, that's to be expected.  EVERY class has something to cast while moving.  The skilled players will find opportune times to use these abilities in order to boost their DPS while others flail trying to get reacclimated to not being able to freely cast and move.

 

The toolkit you describe should include DBM and your brain.  Every single Warlock has the same 'toolkit' in terms of abilties to use.  Where Warlocks differ is HOW they use their toolkit.  Warlocks who also think ahead, plan their movement, and time certain abilities for maximum effect are the Warlocks who stand out.  "Turret" mode isn't the most accurate way to describe what we will be in WoD.  Partially mobile weapons of mass destruction has a nicer ring to it.

 

My only beef with this right now is the spells you mention for destro. Conflag has two shots then you are on CD, SB only works under 20% and you only have 4 shots max before needing to recharge, and RoF is very situational. If we got fel flame back id be completely happy.

 

I was really upset at a lot of the changes too, i even posted here that i was. First time since vanilla i was actually pissed about the changes. But after actually playing the beta im pretty happy with the way things are going (granted, ive only been playing destro on beta). Give us fel flame back and the obvious inevitable tuning that needs to happen to balance us (however when i say balance, i dont feel hybrid classes should be able to out DPS any of our specs). 

 

My general idea, is that we should progress with the lore. I should feel more powerful as i reach that next level cap. I think this is the main reason people are pissed. Blizzard gave us a lot. Especially in regard to KJC. KJC made us gods. When it was nerfed...we were still like Hercules lol. Now, taking that away is what makes it feel like such a loss, but it was something we never should have gotten to begin with. However, i still feel all ranged should be able to do their filler while moving. Make this a change across the board and it wont seem like a huge buff.

 

Im with you also on just getting rid of it and giving us something cool.

Edited August 12, 2014 by vaeevictiss

[Deamux 4]

I dont feel every DPS class should have their filler availible on the move. I do think every class needs a replacement (bit weaker) ability to replace the filler on the move.

 

I dont have beta, so QQ. Looks pretty good, in the end if demo/destro is viable its fine for me :). Dont really like the current affli and the new one doesn't seem any better to me, but we'll see.

[vaeevictiss 17]

It does suck what affliction has become. It has been my favorite spec since I started playing (if my sig didnt give that away lol). But alas, mechanics and tuning obviously has forced me away from it to play the strongest spec. I still use aff on Thok and Prots tho. 

 

I hate...hate...hate demo...always have lol. Maybe ill give it yet again, another shot and see how it plays if it is that good.

[chrisdux 0]

I think the history might be repeating itself since the devs do not seem to take player feedback into account.

We might have to face the fact that adding talents like Cataclysm could mean a Warlock Cataclysm - again.

[vaeevictiss 17]

Because they are not taking your feedback, doesnt mean they are not taking feedback.

 

in other news...my god damn character is missing from the Beta again...so done with it if i have to level another unless they give another 100...with no quests completed.../sigh

Edited August 12, 2014 by vaeevictiss

[Zagam 1,982]

Usually, the pro Warlocks never have any trouble finding their way to the top of the charts, even when the majority of Warlocks claim they are 'bad.'  Lots of people claim Balance Druids are in a bad place - I've personally played with one who kept up with me when I did a 25H Iron Juggernaut.  I finished at 523k and he was at 519k.  Skilled players will always find a way to play a class well.  Warlocks were just too easy to play in this tier.  Destruction is one of the simplest specs.  Everyone thinks its amazing when I find mistakes in players' logs but it always comes down to Immolate and Chaos Bolt.  If you know how to use these, you're 95% of the way there.  Demo is complex, and this is exactly why people claim it's "bad" when it's not.  It's perfectly fine and is capable of destroying the meters.  Affliction has that burst but it's also moderately complex.  Destruction just makes Warlocks look overpowered.  We won't be bad in WoD.  Even if we are "bad," some of us will find ways to look just fine.

[chrisdux 0]

Because they are not taking your feedback, doesnt mean they are not taking feedback.

 

I'm not that egocentric to think that if my Tweet doesn't get a reply that developers are not listening. Please, prove me wrong. Show me some warlock player pointing out something on the Beta and then some Blue reply saying "You might actually be right, we will look into that". I haven't seen single one reply like that in a very long while.

[chrisdux 0]

Usually, the pro Warlocks never have any trouble finding their way to the top of the charts, even when the majority of Warlocks claim they are 'bad.'  Lots of people claim Balance Druids are in a bad place - I've personally played with one who kept up with me when I did a 25H Iron Juggernaut.  I finished at 523k and he was at 519k.  Skilled players will always find a way to play a class well.  Warlocks were just too easy to play in this tier.  Destruction is one of the simplest specs.  Everyone thinks its amazing when I find mistakes in players' logs but it always comes down to Immolate and Chaos Bolt.  If you know how to use these, you're 95% of the way there.  Demo is complex, and this is exactly why people claim it's "bad" when it's not.  It's perfectly fine and is capable of destroying the meters.  Affliction has that burst but it's also moderately complex.  Destruction just makes Warlocks look overpowered.  We won't be bad in WoD.  Even if we are "bad," some of us will find ways to look just fine.

 

I guess I'm one of those pro players since I seem to rank in the top 100 on a regular basis. I don't have trouble playing my class to the limit. I'm not worried about the numbers. I'm not worried I wouldn't be able to play my warlock when they make the class mechanics more complex.

 

I'm worried it won't be fun anymore. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

The problem is that fun has little to do with the dps output. But it has a lot to do with the little things like:

- being able to cast on the move when needed

- being able to quickly finish small adds or destroy a totem-like spawn

- kite stronger adds around, get fast from danger

- cool stuff like Carrion Swarm or Dark Apothesis

- have a nice raid utility cooldown

 

Let's face facts. Right now, Blizzard is not doing its job very well. Not because they are making changes or because there are some bugs on the Beta, but because they don't listen to their players, their sponsors. Because they live in the world "We know what is best for you better than you do" and "You will like it and that's an order". Instead of modesty and interrest in their playerbase, I see only arrogance in defending obvious mistakes as good design, removal of content from the expanstion marked as "planned from start" and some of the more controversial changes being announced only via Twitter and not on the forums. This kind of relationship can never work out.

[Lockybalboa 618]

I'm not that egocentric to think that if my Tweet doesn't get a reply that developers are not listening. Please, prove me wrong. Show me some warlock player pointing out something on the Beta and then some Blue reply saying "You might actually be right, we will look into that". I haven't seen single one reply like that in a very long while.

 

 

They just about never do. But they DO make changes based on feedback. MG/SoulDrain and SoulShatter was based on feedback given to Blizz (that Blizz ASKED for) from Zag, Spark, and Evrila. 

 

During T14/ToT I was with <Gag Reflex> #1 USA ten man guild. During ToT PTR we almost always had a GM watching us test and taking/giving feed back. Granted this wasn't class based, but it did cause major changes to a few of the ToT fights. This is a common happening with top 5-ish guilds.

 

 

I'm worried it won't be fun anymore. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

"Fun" is tbh the silliest thing to try and make class changes on. What is "fun" to you, does not have wide reaching implications. 

 

 

The problem is that fun has little to do with the dps output. But it has a lot to do with the little things like:

- being able to cast on the move when needed

- being able to quickly finish small adds or destroy a totem-like spawn

- kite stronger adds around, get fast from danger

- cool stuff like Carrion Swarm or Dark Apothesis

- have a nice raid utility cooldown

 

• Casting on the move means nothing to me.
• Being able to do bitch work annoys me because I get stuck doing it.
• I don't want to kite, I want to stun/fear and kill.
• Dark Apoc just made my life harder because I had to answer peoples questions about it and shoot down bad ideas like tanking warlocks.
• Screw the raid, leave raid CDs to the support kiddies like Shamans, Paladins, and Druids. I want to be a lean, mean, green, killing god.

 

What makes your "fun" more important then mine? Since our "fun" conflicts on most points, who does Blizz listen too? If they listen to me, why do you deserve to get screwed? If they listen to you, why do I deserve to get screwed?

 

Ya, a game is meant to be "fun" but you can't build a MMO based only on "Hey, this is badass. Lets do this." Armor Pen was fun, but it broke the game. Always growing 200% DPS with each tier is FUN, but it breaks the game. Having 500 imps as Demo with UVLS is crazy mad fun, but it broke the game.

 

 

Go with the flow, try the change, lean more on trying to find new ways to have fun rather then holding on to the old ways. Change is coming. You can't turn away the sea with a broom anymore then you can stop the next wave of patch notes.

[chrisdux 0]

What makes your "fun" more important then mine? Since our "fun" conflicts on most points, who does Blizz listen too? If they listen to me, why do you deserve to get screwed? If they listen to you, why do I deserve to get screwed?

 

Ya, a game is meant to be "fun" but you can't build a MMO based only on "Hey, this is badass. Lets do this." Armor Pen was fun, but it broke the game. Always growing 200% DPS with each tier is FUN, but it breaks the game. Having 500 imps as Demo with UVLS is crazy mad fun, but it broke the game.

 

 

Go with the flow, try the change, lean more on trying to find new ways to have fun rather then holding on to the old ways. Change is coming. You can't turn away the sea with a broom anymore then you can stop the next wave of patch notes.

 

So you are saying that things that are fun for me, like Dark Apothesis or abilities to kite adds would break the game? If warlock had some abilities you don't usually use, would it ruin the game for you?

If not, why remove something that was in the game already?

Again, I'm not talking any numbers. If something was really broken, it was Snapshotting + SS combo. There's no snapshotting anymore. So why the sudden need to swipe half of our abilites with it?

Edited August 12, 2014 by chrisdux

[chrisdux 0]

Btw. I strongly belive I'm not the only one who's got issues with the state of Warlocks in WoD.

 

See what Sparkuggz thinks.