wow Inclusivity Updates in Dragonflight

[Starseed 113]

30 minutes ago, Prophet001 said:

You're right. Attempting to normalize it is the goal. The problem is it's not normal. So what you're *actually doing* is tearing down the pillars of society and our understanding of humanity for the sake of some few, frankly confused, people.

oh believe me honey it is normal.

and im not even arguing that there are only two genders when you view it from a biologic point (well four since it can happen that you get born without a gender or with both but thats a rare thing) but we arent talking about a pureley biological standpoint. people grow up and realize they arent really happy with the gender there body has and feel much better living a live a s the oposite or even in a more fluid way and they arent hurting anyone. but the rest of the world is just sitting here and acts agressive people get attackt and bullied. people get fired from there jobs and thats not fair and we need to represent it as often as we can so over time people start just accepting us.we dont want a better treatment then the "normal" people. we want the same.

i can speak from my personal expirience. im a men. i was born a men and tryed to fit into the role the world has formed for men but i always struggelt. today i accepted that im non binary i still see myself mostly as a men but i very flamboyant and dont fit into that male role and behavior and thats what makes me happy i am hurting no one i cost no one any money or anything but i get hate when i go shopping or take the bus and thats not oke 

[Teufel 331]

4 hours ago, Starseed said:

but  inclusion and representation is so freaking important because if we get included in more things the more it gets normal for people. we are part of the world and we wont go away and we deserve the same respect and the same rights as every one else and we need the representation so some day hopefully less and less people say stuff like "gender-confused chinchilla" or like another guy here that called us mantally deranged.

You, like every 'wokester' out there, confuse "respect and rights" with "bowing to idiotic whims". Whims that rooted in quite literally nothing but your own belief that you're a "gender-confused chinchilla". You want to think that? Fine. The whole world needs to adjust to one idiot thinking that? No, it does not. Minority adjust to majority, that's the only way it works. And likes of you choose to cry and whine about not being 'represented and included', rather than just dealing with it like an adult and realizing, as the guy above me noted  - you're not 'excluded' in the first place. 

And every time you say "rEpREsEnTatIoN", rember that this nonbinary circus is a minority within a minority, much like LGBT is, yet your woke crowd demand they been shoved literally everywhere to the point the media starts painting straight binary people as a minority despite being effin 90% of the world's population, just not to butthurt a few childish entitled nonbinary Karens who wants to be 'represented' everywhere. To the point of a growing pile of cases of people getting roles and jobs solely for their minority status and 'representation' purposes, Blizzard included. Who would've guessed, discrimination in reverse, that's what you stand for isn't it, you woke equality fighters? 

F*cking hypocrites.

[Starseed 113]

6 minutes ago, Teufel said:

You, like every 'wokester' out there, confuse "respect and rights" with "bowing to idiotic whims". Whims that rooted in quite literally nothing but your own belief that you're a . You want to think that? Fine. The whole world needs to adjust to one idiot thinking that? No, it does not. Minority adjust to majority, that's the only way it works. And likes of you choose to cry and whine about not being 'represented and included', rather than just dealing with it like an adult and realizing, as the guy above me noted  - you're not 'excluded' in the first place. 

And every time you say "rEpREsEnTatIoN", rember that this nonbinary circus is a minority within a minority, much like LGBT is, yet your woke crowd demand they been shoved literally everywhere to the point the media starts painting straight binary people as a minority despite being effin 90% of the world's population, just not to butthurt a few childish entitled nonbinary Karens who wants to be 'represented' everywhere. To the point of a growing pile of cases of people getting roles and jobs solely for their minority status and 'representation' purposes, Blizzard included. Who would've guessed, discrimination in reverse, that's what you stand for isn't it, you woke equality fighters? 

F*cking hypocrites.

i dont see how thats reverse discrimination but you are free to think that. i would be even fine with guys like you just saying: man i think that dumb because i have other views of the world but funny enough people like you always try to use being woke as something bad and use terms like "gender-confused chinchilla" and other degrading terms to put ureself on a high horse. why cant you guys just share your opinion in a civil way? sure every group has some rude loude a holes but do you want to be one of them?

[Q 200]

58 minutes ago, Starseed said:

i can speak from my personal expirience. im a men. i was born a men and tryed to fit into the role the world has formed for men but i always struggelt. today i accepted that im non binary i still see myself mostly as a men but i very flamboyant and dont fit into that male role and behavior and thats what makes me happy i am hurting no one i cost no one any money or anything but i get hate when i go shopping or take the bus and thats not oke 

There's nothing wrong with being a flamboyant man or a masculine woman, the problem is when people are rejecting basic facts and logic to make themselves feel better while also trying to force others to do the same when, in reality, it does nothing but ostracize themselves further, leading to even more misery for themselves. If you see yourself as mostly a man and maintain male anatomy then you're still a man, gender neutral pronouns and claiming to be non-binary won't change simple facts of life like that.

[Starseed 113]

16 minutes ago, Q said:

There's nothing wrong with being a flamboyant man or a masculine woman, the problem is when people are rejecting basic facts and logic to make themselves feel better while also trying to force others to do the same when, in reality, it does nothing but ostracize themselves further, leading to even more misery for themselves. If you see yourself as mostly a man and maintain male anatomy then you're still a man, gender neutral pronouns and claiming to be non-binary won't change simple facts of life like that.

You are 200% right it doesn't change the fact that I am biologically a men and I am cool with that cause I am not trans that would be a whole other thing I would btw be fine waking up as a woman tomorrow. Being non binary is my gender identity wich has nothing to do with my actual gender.

I think we are above the mindset of the old times and in the end we are talking about I very minor change in a mmo that is a nice thing for certain group and isn't affecting the other players but the real problem is how the people react to that news. People act like it's the end of the world when in reality we can change the gender of our chars at every barber. I even change then depending on transmog because some sets are lokking better on male undeads. 

 

BTW I appreciate that you make your point clear without resorting to degrading terms

[Q 200]

23 minutes ago, Starseed said:

I think we are above the mindset of the old times and in the end we are talking about I very minor change in a mmo that is a nice thing for certain group and isn't affecting the other players but the real problem is how the people react to that news. People act like it's the end of the world when in reality we can change the gender of our chars at every barber. I even change then depending on transmog because some sets are lokking better on male undeads. 

 

BTW I appreciate that you make your point clear without resorting to degrading terms

I can't claim to know the reasoning for anyone else's response to this type of news but for me, it's a matter of feeling like I'm becoming unwanted because I am a relatively typical white male, who many rallying of such changes claim to be evil incarnate. Some people who are for such changes are quite hostile, as seen with some of the posts on this thread, but the same can be said of both sides. Using degrading terms doesn't make either side's point any more solid if anything, it only weakens it because it shows a disconnect to logical thought and their choice to go with a knee *filtered* reaction rather than a well thought out rebuttal to the news.

[Starseed 113]

13 minutes ago, Q said:

I can't claim to know the reasoning for anyone else's response to this type of news but for me, it's a matter of feeling like I'm becoming unwanted because I am a relatively typical white male, who many rallying of such changes claim to be evil incarnate. Some people who are for such changes are quite hostile, as seen with some of the posts on this thread, but the same can be said of both sides. Using degrading terms doesn't make either side's point any more solid if anything, it only weakens it because it shows a disconnect to logical thought and their choice to go with a knee *filtered* reaction rather than a well thought out rebuttal to the news.

Yeah I know what you mean. Both sides have people that like to fall back on disgusting terms when they face opposition. And sadly many people that are part of the lgbtq community act as if white straight men are oure sworn enemies just because oure biggest enemies are just that. Even people like me that are part of the community regularly get hate because we are "not really" a part because I am straight so I am just a typical men. 

[Migol 433]

...Am I the only one to react "Meh" to this?

Yes, there are a very small number of people who are born with both or neither gender, reflected in chromsome, organs, etc.    Those people should be protected and given respect.  

However I also agree that it is not healthy to "believe" oneself to be a different gender or want to identify as one without any biological reason.    There's no real harm in playing out such fantasies or such, but forcing others to also identify you as something other than reality is again, unhealthy and creates conflict.

...at the same time...this is the most low-key change I can ever imagine.   Literally the only person who sees this is the player themselves in quest text.    The voice thing if implemented will probably be used by a lot of people for lols, and similarly doesn't really impact anyone.

 

 

[Arcling 898]

8 hours ago, Borgoff33 said:

yeah this proves you have never watched him at all and are just spouting the bullshit left lies. let me guess Biden is doing a great job huh?

Quartering is a grifter, he doesn't care about most stuff he is talking about. Or do you think he seriously cares about some celebrity drama? He is just fishing for views and these low effort takes are enough for his audience. He never says anything nuanced, just regurgitating what is popular among certain groups (them being "right" wing gamers).

[Arcling 898]

26 minutes ago, Migol said:

...Am I the only one to react "Meh" to this?

Yes, there are a very small number of people who are born with both or neither gender, reflected in chromsome, organs, etc.    Those people should be protected and given respect.  

However I also agree that it is not healthy to "believe" oneself to be a different gender or want to identify as one without any biological reason.    There's no real harm in playing out such fantasies or such, but forcing others to also identify you as something other than reality is again, unhealthy and creates conflict.

Gender as an identity is a social construct, everyone has a different idea. Depending on culture and time, there are different ideas what it means to be a "true man/woman" (and some cultures even had a concept of another gender long time ago). You confuse it with biological *filtered*, which isn't as straightforward as you might think (intersex people exist after all). I would recommend reading more about these topics. Also misgendering someone on purpose just makes you look stupid.

However, one thing I can agree with is that this change is very low effort and doesn't really affect anything, besides adding different pronouns to choose from.

Edit: weird censorship.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Arcling

[Devylknyght 83]

Not a reason for me to quit (already did), but definitely another reason for me not to come back. And to slowly stop keeping an eye on the news for wow here on IV. I want to want to come back. But the game is just made for someone else now. I hope they enjoy it.

[Migol 433]

1 hour ago, Arcling said:

Gender as an identity is a social construct, everyone has a different idea. Depending on culture and time, there are different ideas what it means to be a "true man/woman" (and some cultures even had a concept of another gender long time ago). You confuse it with biological *filtered*, which isn't as straightforward as you might think (intersex people exist after all). I would recommend reading more about these topics. Also misgendering someone on purpose just makes you look stupid.

I agree it's a social construct, and honestly IMO we should just ignore it.     Women should have equal pay to men, Men should not feel shamed for being sensitive, etc etc.     Perfect world, this is not.

And I agree (and mentioned in my first portion) that Intersex, IE biologically undefined, people do exist and they should be treated with respect and dignity.

The part I have a problem with is that we're placing too much on the "gender" idea.    Gender as a form of self identification is given way too much power, really it's just which organs you have at your waist and which hormones are prevalent, everything else is cultural like pink being for girls, blue for boys, dress, choice in toys and so on.     All of that is nonsense that our culture assigned for one reason or another.

Like I say above, a sensitive man who cries at sad films and loves the color pink should embrace those characteristics, that's part of what makes them, them.    However, someone saying that, in the face of all facts, they identify as an opposite gender and want to have us help support that identity, is asking us to support fiction.    It's fine if a you want to crossdress for fun, it's fine if you imagine yourself as the opposite gender in other ways for fun.    But actively saying that you wanted to be treated as a factual member of that gender and asking for concessions (IE bathroom use, sports participation, etc) that creates discomfort, conflict and whatnot is going too far.

edit: changed s e x into gender because filter

Edited July 18, 2022 by Migol
text

[synack 6]

What the heck is wrong with everyone?  How is allowing players to better express who they are a bad thing?

You believe that *filtered* and gender are the same thing?  Cool, pick Body 1, a male voice, and choose He/Him pronouns (or Body 2, a woman voice, and She/Her).  There's literally nothing wrong with de-coupling these choices, and frankly I've been disgusted by the level of discourse from those who are somehow offended by the mere choice.

[Starseed 113]

10 minutes ago, Migol said:

I agree it's a social construct, and honestly IMO we should just ignore it.     Women should have equal pay to men, Men should not feel shamed for being sensitive, etc etc.     Perfect world, this is not.

And I agree (and mentioned in my first portion) that Intersex, IE biologically undefined, people do exist and they should be treated with respect and dignity.

The part I have a problem with is that we're placing too much on the "gender" idea.    Gender as a form of self identification is given way too much power, really it's just which organs you have at your waist and which hormones are prevalent, everything else is cultural like pink being for girls, blue for boys, dress, choice in toys and so on.     All of that is nonsense that our culture assigned for one reason or another.

Like I say above, a sensitive man who cries at sad films and loves the color pink should embrace those characteristics, that's part of what makes them, them.    However, someone saying that, in the face of all facts, they identify as an opposite gender and want to have us help support that identity, is asking us to support fiction.    It's fine if a you want to crossdress for fun, it's fine if you imagine yourself as the opposite gender in other ways for fun.    But actively saying that you wanted to be treated as a factual member of that gender and asking for concessions (IE bathroom use, sports participation, etc) that creates discomfort, conflict and whatnot is going too far.

edit: changed s e x into gender because filter

Oke for people like me that are non binary i would say we can argue about how important it really is and I am pretty sure if we would stop labeling toys colors cloth and so on as girls or boys stuff we wouldn't have such a big gender identity thing going on. The last point is something completely different. If someone is actually trans they should be treated as a member of the other *filtered* when they officially started the transition. And that isn't something you can just do so easy because atleast from what I know to be in official transition you need to see a therapist that talks with you before you can start taking hormones and stuff like using the other genders bathroom or joining a gender specific team is still very hard and only allowed after certain progress in your transition to hinder people to exploit this to peep in the women showers for example

[synack 6]

19 hours ago, Arcling said:

This is like one of the worst channels to link.

Not surprised WoWhead locked their comments, they often do under similar news. It doesn't change much besides renaming in character customization and adding they/them as an option, which is pretty low effort to be honest. And it looks like Dracthyr will be the only ones to have more body types, adding more body types for other races would actually be good.

It looks like they might be setting themselves up to have extra body types for the other races in the future.  That's why they didn't label them "masculine" and "feminine", because they're going to be adding other body types over time.

[Starseed 113]

3 minutes ago, synack said:

What the heck is wrong with everyone?  How is allowing players to better express who they are a bad thing?

You believe that *filtered* and gender are the same thing?  Cool, pick Body 1, a male voice, and choose He/Him pronouns (or Body 2, a woman voice, and She/Her).  There's literally nothing wrong with de-coupling these choices, and frankly I've been disgusted by the level of discourse from those who are somehow offended by the mere choice.

Right. Choice isn't something bad it's good. You don't want to change anything? Cool dude nobody is forcing you. It's not like your mighty orc warrior needs to use the female voice suddenly and can only wear pink dresses

[dlhak 30]

6 hours ago, Prophet001 said:

My guy this isn't inclusive it excludes the 99.999999% of people on this planet that know there's only 2 genders.

This is a completely nuts change.

Edit: Also, nobody was being excluded in the first place. You act like there's people that can't play the game because there's a gender choice. Stop it. Get some help.

The crazy thing os that the people who change their *filtered* chose to become either male or female, so technically there are no more than 2 genders. but this is business, companies want to be seen modern and "inclusive" they create problems and they pretend they have solutions for them. just like any politics in any part of the world.

[Migol 433]

8 minutes ago, Starseed said:

The last point is something completely different. If someone is actually trans they should be treated as a member of the other *filtered* when they officially started the transition. And that isn't something you can just do so easy because atleast from what I know to be in official transition you need to see a therapist that talks with you before you can start taking hormones and stuff like using the other genders bathroom or joining a gender specific team is still very hard and only allowed after certain progress in your transition to hinder people to exploit this to peep in the women showers for example

I'm not saying that it's being used on purpose as an exploit.    It would indeed be a sad person who goes to all that effort to "win" at sports.   

What I'm saying is we shouldn't be paying that therapist for that service or prescribing hormones without a good medical reason.    Again, if they have such a reason (and though rare such people do exist), yes by all means.      But if it's not demonstrably a biological reason, then that person should not be taking those hormones or seeing that therapist.     Those people are again, prescribing too much power to gender as a part of their identity.   They are who they are, whatever organs are on their waist doesn't affect that.    If they're enamored with things our fallible culture prescribes to the other gender, let them have fun with those things, sure.    But actually trying to say that against all evidence they actually are that other gender...that's again too far.      It's trying to assert a physical fact (and gender is purely physical, everything in our heads is again cultural constructs) that does not exist.

[Starseed 113]

5 minutes ago, Migol said:

I'm not saying that it's being used on purpose as an exploit.    It would indeed be a sad person who goes to all that effort to "win" at sports.   

What I'm saying is we shouldn't be paying that therapist for that service or prescribing hormones without a good medical reason.    Again, if they have such a reason (and though rare such people do exist), yes by all means.      But if it's not demonstrably a biological reason, then that person should not be taking those hormones or seeing that therapist.     Those people are again, prescribing too much power to gender as a part of their identity.   They are who they are, whatever organs are on their waist doesn't affect that.    If they're enamored with things our fallible culture prescribes to the other gender, let them have fun with those things, sure.    But actually trying to say that against all evidence they actually are that other gender...that's again too far.      It's trying to assert a physical fact (and gender is purely physical, everything in our heads is again cultural constructs) that does not exist.

i mean people that really do a transition have a real medical reason. im from germany we have a really good healthcare system and basicly every one pays for everybody wich works out great and these people can either see a therapist and if they really are transgender make a transition or we say you need to pay that yourself wich nearly no one can and then the system pays for a therapist because they develop serious mental health problems

[Arcling 898]

1 minute ago, Migol said:

 What I'm saying is we shouldn't be paying that therapist for that service or prescribing hormones without a good medical reason.    Again, if they have such a reason (and though rare such people do exist), yes by all means.      But if it's not demonstrably a biological reason, then that person should not be taking those hormones or seeing that therapist. 

This is simply wrong. This is the same rhetoric people used to say about gay people that they are just "sick" and need "conversion therapy". Science actually says different things about gender, but that would take too long to explain here. I would rather just recommend reading more on the subject, since you are clearly uniformed, and all you said is just based on prejudice and stereotypes. You even compared "crossdressing for fun" to transgender (which isn't even the same, crossdresser might not identify as trans).

 

[Migol 433]

7 minutes ago, Arcling said:

This is simply wrong. This is the same rhetoric people used to say about gay people that they are just "sick" and need "conversion therapy". Science actually says different things about gender, but that would take too long to explain here. I would rather just recommend reading more on the subject, since you are clearly uniformed, and all you said is just based on prejudice and stereotypes. You even compared "crossdressing for fun" to transgender (which isn't even the same, crossdresser might not identify as trans).

 

*shrug*

Do you have a link to someone who breaks down why, scientifically, there is a reason to encourage someone to take these steps if there is no biological reason to do so?    Just hand waving "you need to read more" is not good enough.    Again, totally understandable if they're actually part of the group that was born with a condition at the chromosome level or similar circumstances.     But I just don't see justification for something that has no medical basis.

[BravoWhiskey1716 1]

5 hours ago, Starseed said:

i dont see how thats reverse discrimination but you are free to think that. i would be even fine with guys like you just saying: man i think that dumb because i have other views of the world but funny enough people like you always try to use being woke as something bad and use terms like "gender-confused chinchilla" and other degrading terms to put ureself on a high horse. why cant you guys just share your opinion in a civil way? sure every group has some rude loude a holes but do you want to be one of them?

I don't see how a choice is a discrimination in any way. I figured I'd throw my two cents in after reading this topic's posts. I am a cisgender male, I am considered by most to be a conservative, and IRL, I am retired and keeping busy with several projects and enjoying a RPG game. I have to tell a story from my experience IRL however. I was very saddened one day (during my career) when a gay coworker felt it necessary to ask if I was aware that he was gay... simply because I was friendly to him and non-judgmental in my dealings with him.

Is that what we've all become? Are we all 'right fighters' that have to have everyone agree with our point of view, and if they don't, they're the enemy?! I choose for myself. I don't need to agree with your choices, and you don't need my approval for yours.

In game, I run both male and female toons, I think this is a role-playing game, and that it isn't anything more than enjoying a fantasy.

Our real-life dealings are more important though. The fact there are those who invoke 'morality' as their purview goes against everything that the US constitution stands for. Just think... to discriminate and seek vengence, you first have to Judge someone guilty... That only happens when someone breaks a law (especially when effects another person's rights or safety). Don't force your views on me, and I'll refrain from forcing mine on you. 

How about just having fun in game?

[Andser 34]

12 hours ago, Starseed said:

but  inclusion and representation is so freaking important because if we get included in more things the more it gets normal for people. we are part of the world and we wont go away and we deserve the same respect and the same rights as every one else and we need the representation so some day hopefully less and less people say stuff like "gender-confused chinchilla" or like another guy here that called us mantally deranged.

I keep seeing the same argument over and over again of "give us the same rights". What rights? Right to vote? Right to exist? Right to pay taxes? Right to assemble? Discrimination has been outlawed for many years now, but even then, tighter groups with common interests hold together better, find your niche, find your friends, don't get wet the moment a corporation attempts to virtue signal to your cause, they don't have your best interest in mind at all.

So if someone were to invade your social circle and force you to wear praise their symbols and use some made sha/shoo pronoun in communication instead of what you prefer, you will get mad, just as the old WoW playerbase got mad when they got this stuff forced down their throats.

The scaling up of games, hobbies and other stuff involving social interaction has never worked out, you will never satisfy anyone, only wreak havoc and incite violence in your audiences, to name some examples - Games Workshop, Magic the Gathering

[Starseed 113]

26 minutes ago, Andser said:

I keep seeing the same argument over and over again of "give us the same rights". What rights? Right to vote? Right to exist? Right to pay taxes? Right to assemble? Discrimination has been outlawed for many years now, but even then, tighter groups with common interests hold together better, find your niche, find your friends, don't get wet the moment a corporation attempts to virtue signal to your cause, they don't have your best interest in mind at all.

So if someone were to invade your social circle and force you to wear praise their symbols and use some made sha/shoo pronoun in communication instead of what you prefer, you will get mad, just as the old WoW playerbase got mad when they got this stuff forced down their throats.

The scaling up of games, hobbies and other stuff involving social interaction has never worked out, you will never satisfy anyone, only wreak havoc and incite violence in your audiences, to name some examples - Games Workshop, Magic the Gathering

yeah and how great does that work? sure its outlawed but no one freaking cares. we have still countries on the world where you need to fear the police fpr who you are and who you love. people get discriminated every day in every aspect of live because out there are still people that think it is ok to spew nothing but hatred against every one that isnt fitting in there narrow mindset. how often do you see lgbtq people screaming to a hetero couple in a bar they should burn in hell and they need to get treatment? i and so many others would just like to live oure lives the way we like to without hurting anyone but the representation matters so the newer generations grow up in a world where its normal to be who you are. why is it that every thing that is new or diffrent poses a threat to some people the world is constantly evolving and now we are in a time where people are no longer afraid to stand for who they are.

 

 

[Lithari 194]

1 hour ago, Starseed said:

yeah and how great does that work? sure its outlawed but no one freaking cares. we have still countries on the world where you need to fear the police fpr who you are and who you love. people get discriminated every day in every aspect of live because out there are still people that think it is ok to spew nothing but hatred against every one that isnt fitting in there narrow mindset. how often do you see lgbtq people screaming to a hetero couple in a bar they should burn in hell and they need to get treatment? i and so many others would just like to live oure lives the way we like to without hurting anyone but the representation matters so the newer generations grow up in a world where its normal to be who you are. why is it that every thing that is new or diffrent poses a threat to some people the world is constantly evolving and now we are in a time where people are no longer afraid to stand for who they are.

 

 

I personally don't care if you are gay or not, I just want to play the game and escape the craziness of the world.