wow Inclusivity Updates in Dragonflight

[darkgreenwax 412]

Wow, how did I miss this thread? I can't even get through it all.
 

I didn't think Icyveins had so many users that would lose their bowels over tiny changes that make them feel threatened over their narrowly-educated worldview.

 

Yet here we are.

 

Some of you really need to read a book. And be less hateful to something (or someone) you don't understand. If a news post like this causes you to start swearing, sounding paranoid of take-over, or insulting someone based on their identity: you're the problem.

 

 

[Andser 34]

14 minutes ago, TyZone said:

Wow, how did I miss this thread? I can't even get through it all.
 

I didn't think Icyveins had so many users that would lose their bowels over tiny changes that make them feel threatened over their narrowly-educated worldview.

 

Yet here we are.

 

Some of you really need to read a book. And be less hateful to something (or someone) you don't understand. If a news post like this causes you to start swearing, sounding paranoid of take-over, or insulting someone based on their identity: you're the problem.

 

 

Well, wowhead locking comments on these topics made a lot of users migrate to icy-veins for news. It's not really just a small part of the playerbase, they just want to play the game and be immersed instead of getting reminded of todays propaganda or new wrongthink.

[Andser 34]

9 hours ago, Starseed said:

yeah and how great does that work? sure its outlawed but no one freaking cares. we have still countries on the world where you need to fear the police fpr who you are and who you love. people get discriminated every day in every aspect of live because out there are still people that think it is ok to spew nothing but hatred against every one that isnt fitting in there narrow mindset. how often do you see lgbtq people screaming to a hetero couple in a bar they should burn in hell and they need to get treatment? i and so many others would just like to live oure lives the way we like to without hurting anyone but the representation matters so the newer generations grow up in a world where its normal to be who you are. why is it that every thing that is new or diffrent poses a threat to some people the world is constantly evolving and now we are in a time where people are no longer afraid to stand for who they are.

 

 

Those countries are of no interest to me, nor should they interest you, I do not care what happens in south america, africa, australia or china. If it comes down to states in the USA crying about how their neighbouring state has different laws, then that's a mental illness and obsession, that's why different countries exist, you can freely move around and pick your preferred one, it works in Europe, since we're not raised to pick a tent and get on with our daily hate minute towards the other side.

If you're planning on removing discrimination why not move to India to break down their caste system? or tell the people in Israel those palestinians deserve some land? or try travelling to south africa and set up a farm, see how that goes for you.

[Starseed 113]

14 hours ago, BravoWhiskey1716 said:

I don't see how a choice is a discrimination in any way. I figured I'd throw my two cents in after reading this topic's posts. I am a cisgender male, I am considered by most to be a conservative, and IRL, I am retired and keeping busy with several projects and enjoying a RPG game. I have to tell a story from my experience IRL however. I was very saddened one day (during my career) when a gay coworker felt it necessary to ask if I was aware that he was gay... simply because I was friendly to him and non-judgmental in my dealings with him.

Is that what we've all become? Are we all 'right fighters' that have to have everyone agree with our point of view, and if they don't, they're the enemy?! I choose for myself. I don't need to agree with your choices, and you don't need my approval for yours.

In game, I run both male and female toons, I think this is a role-playing game, and that it isn't anything more than enjoying a fantasy.

Our real-life dealings are more important though. The fact there are those who invoke 'morality' as their purview goes against everything that the US constitution stands for. Just think... to discriminate and seek vengence, you first have to Judge someone guilty... That only happens when someone breaks a law (especially when effects another person's rights or safety). Don't force your views on me, and I'll refrain from forcing mine on you. 

How about just having fun in game?

You are right in the end its a game and we all should have fun. 

I just dont see how this small change is forcing a view on anyone I would say it just makes room for more difrent views 

[synack 6]

16 hours ago, Andser said:

I keep seeing the same argument over and over again of "give us the same rights". What rights? Right to vote? Right to exist? Right to pay taxes? Right to assemble? Discrimination has been outlawed for many years now, but even then, tighter groups with common interests hold together better, find your niche, find your friends, don't get wet the moment a corporation attempts to virtue signal to your cause, they don't have your best interest in mind at all.

So if someone were to invade your social circle and force you to wear praise their symbols and use some made sha/shoo pronoun in communication instead of what you prefer, you will get mad, just as the old WoW playerbase got mad when they got this stuff forced down their throats.

The scaling up of games, hobbies and other stuff involving social interaction has never worked out, you will never satisfy anyone, only wreak havoc and incite violence in your audiences, to name some examples - Games Workshop, Magic the Gathering

I don’t think anyone says you have to be friends with, or associate with personally, with anyone you don’t want to associate with.  What is wanted is to be treated with the respect and dignity that everyone else gets by default.

This means not deadnaming or misgendering someone on purpose.

This means giving someone the same love and respect you would any other stranger.

This means not being discriminatory and pushing back against those who are doing so.

In some countries, you can literally be jailed or even executed for being LGBTQ.  Many are kicked out of their parents homes prematurely for being gay.

The reason why there’s such a push on this topic is because these things happen, and the only way you can fix it is exposing people to it so it becomes more normalized.  This is why pronouns are important, and why using someone’s current name is important.  When someone is deadnamed or misgendered intentionally, they’re being told that who they are isn’t important.

Small things like not repeating the ”joke” of “I identify as an Apache Attack Helicopter” goes a long way.  Removing gay slurs from your vocabulary is another small way to make a difference.  Treat others with the dignity and respect you would want from others.

This is something that needs to change at a cultural level, and that happens via activism and normalization.

Edited July 19, 2022 by synack

[Aberus 0]

Please don't lump orientation and "gender identity" together.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Aberus

[Arcling 898]

14 hours ago, Andser said:

Those countries are of no interest to me, nor should they interest you, I do not care what happens in south america, africa, australia or china.

This is such a narrow and stupid view, spoken like a stereotypical American. Just because something happens on the other side of the globe, doesn't mean you can't be affected by it. I do enjoy learning about what's happening in different countries, so this narrow way of thinking is alien to me, and boring! In many cases, people should be concerned, countries don't exist in a vacuum and there are many global challenges. If anything, we need more integration.

14 hours ago, Andser said:

If it comes down to states in the USA crying about how their neighbouring state has different laws, then that's a mental illness and obsession, that's why different countries exist, you can freely move around and pick your preferred one, it works in Europe, since we're not raised to pick a tent and get on with our daily hate minute towards the other side.

This is dumb as well, "you don't like it here, so move to another country". So you are basically denying democracy and ability to have discussion, changing laws etc. But we are going offtopic anyway, so best to stop here.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Arcling

[BravoWhiskey1716 1]

 

sorry, screwed up the attachment. see below!

Edited July 19, 2022 by BravoWhiskey1716

[BravoWhiskey1716 1]

1 hour ago, Arcling said:

This is such a narrow and stupid view, spoken like a stereotypical American. Just because something happens on the other side of the globe, doesn't mean you can't be affected by it. I do enjoy learning about what's happening in different countries, so this narrow way of thinking is alien to me, and boring! In many cases, people should be concerned, countries don't exist in a vacuum and there are many global challenges. If anything, we need more integration.

This is dumb as well, "you don't like it here, so move to another country". So you are basically denying democracy and ability to have discussion, changing laws etc. But we are going offtopic anyway, so best to stop here.

Again, everything I'm seeing here is examples of the argument that there needs to be pushback across the board. I don't think that is appropriate. The more militant on either side use anything said as an excuse to go on the warpath. I'll just say that I can accept your decisions for your life and actions, asl long as you can accept mine. Neither of has to agree on anything except respecting the other as free people.

As for paying attention to what happens outside our boarders, those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it! That doesn't excuse anyone from getting involved in another country's business. Nations are representative of their people, and that includes the respect I was just delineating in the previous paragraph! If it is between two nations we have no treaties with, and neither asks for our help, we should do no more than voice our opinions and state where we draw the line. Just remember, If you draw a line, there will be times the other will cross it out of sheer defiance! Be prepared to live to your word.....

Can we play now?

[Arcling 898]

39 minutes ago, BravoWhiskey1716 said:

Again, everything I'm seeing here is examples of the argument that there needs to be pushback across the board.

If some people are against certain groups voicing their opinion based on their gender or orientation, telling them they should just pretend they don't exist or in worst cases, they want them dead, then pushback is required. This is not a matter of simple difference of opinion.

Anyway, back to the topic, the best solution is to give everyone a choice (they chose the easy way here, since all they have done was renaming some body types, rather than introducing more), but it's obvious some people here don't want that.

 

39 minutes ago, BravoWhiskey1716 said:

Nations are representative of their people, and that includes the respect I was just delineating in the previous paragraph! If it is between two nations we have no treaties with, and neither asks for our help, we should do no more than voice our opinions and state where we draw the line.

I disagree, such isolationism never works well. Nation-states are dumb in the end, and they often don't represent their people (your country is a good example, where president can be elected without getting majority of votes or the issues with Supreme Court etc.). We need more cooperation to tackle many issues globally (some forms of larger federations for example, but no chance for them at this point).

Anyway, that's all from me, since this discussion seems to be going nowhere.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Arcling

[Raffinaddi 18]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:56 AM, Environment said:

If you leave because Blizz implements some additional inclusivity things, then good *filtered* riddance

But it's NOT inclusive. They crap all over us dysphoric people who want to ESCAPE the pronoun crap. I don't need more stuff that tells me I NEED to pick pronouns and such. Not to mention the devaluation of women to be "body 2". How the heck is that supposed to help my dysphoria!? Fixating over stuff is the complete opposite of escapism. Why is the pronoun people so obsessed with making us dysphoric's world worse than it is?

I want to escape that. Please let me. I don't want to be forced to be part of those crazies.

[Raffinaddi 18]

On 7/18/2022 at 7:33 PM, synack said:

What the heck is wrong with everyone?  How is allowing players to better express who they are a bad thing?

You believe that *filtered* and gender are the same thing?  Cool, pick Body 1, a male voice, and choose He/Him pronouns (or Body 2, a woman voice, and She/Her).  There's literally nothing wrong with de-coupling these choices, and frankly I've been disgusted by the level of discourse from those who are somehow offended by the mere choice.

But you're forcing other people into your beliefs. Why not make an addon where it shows your pronouns if that's the most important thing?

Why force everyone to choose? My pronouns are I/me/myself. It's up to everyone else to refer to me as they wish. I don't own their bodies and they should be free to do whatever sounds they wish.

My dysphoria will not go away by obsessing over gender and pronouns or calling women the second gender. It's the opposite. I do not want to be reminded of that. But you lot keep forcing me into your beliefs that hurt me.

[BravoWhiskey1716 1]

On 7/19/2022 at 5:57 PM, Arcling said:

If some people are against certain groups voicing their opinion based on their gender or orientation, telling them they should just pretend they don't exist or in worst cases, they want them dead, then pushback is required. This is not a matter of simple difference of opinion.

Anyway, back to the topic, the best solution is to give everyone a choice (they chose the easy way here, since all they have done was renaming some body types, rather than introducing more), but it's obvious some people here don't want that.

 

I disagree, such isolationism never works well. Nation-states are dumb in the end, and they often don't represent their people (your country is a good example, where president can be elected without getting majority of votes or the issues with Supreme Court etc.). We need more cooperation to tackle many issues globally (some forms of larger federations for example, but no chance for them at this point).

Anyway, that's all from me, since this discussion seems to be going nowhere.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, and maybe I should have been more plain. In the first part you answered, you only quoted the first sentence of what I said. I did delineate that I feel we need to respect other's views, whether we agree with them or not! the 'pushback' I was referring to is the very disrespect and name calling that was alluded to throughout this thread. Even more, the possibility that people would make threats. If someone says something you don't agree with, by all means voice your opinion.... Politely and respectfully. Nowhere in that was there a reference to pretending they don't exist! 

The second part goes in the lager scope of international relations but follows the same theme. I did not refer to any "Isolationism". And you're right! That is never a good idea. But if there's a disagreement between two other people that you have no relation to, and neither asked for your help, it is rather an intrusion to do more than voice an offer to help. You do need to pay attention, and as I said, if it seems to threaten you or those you do have a relationship with, then you need to draw a clear line that shouldn't be crossed. I wasn't saying that any of our governments necessarily always follow the will of their people, nor that they should bury their heads in the sand. But they should follow similar patterns as individuals and show each other respect.  As before the key is respect of others and willingness to help.

Sorry, I'm not lecturing, I just wanted you to know what I meant, in the spirit of cooperation.