Holy Paladin

[Sinzhu 5]

This thread is for questions, comments, and feedback on our Holy Paladin guide for Wrath of the Lich King Classic.

[brainlag 0]

These are in no specific order other than things that popped into my mind while reading the guide. I'll add more suggestions as i think of them!

in the guide it says to use glyph of seal of light, but seal of wisdom outperforms light by a lot
-reduced mana cost on your holy lights, also melee'ing between casts to get mana back is very strong
-increased healing outputs really aren't necessary from my experience, holy light will be hitting for 10k in t7 already

it also says that libram of tolerance is your t7 bis, however the heroism badge libram will outperform it.
-holy light has a long cast time and spellpower/raw output bonuses won't translate very well vs a reduced mana costs

this one is just my own personal rambling, but i think the BIS t7 necklace is actually the hit/haste sapph neck
-the hit isn't necessarily wasted on a holy paladin. missing a judgement can be huge 😛

it might be worth noting somewhere in the guide that if you end up with a greatness card you should try to juggle your divine plea usage during the greatness proc to snapshot the extra 300 intellect worth of mana (the only reason i think it's worth mentioning is because this is your BIS trinket for the whole expansion)

the guide also mentions to judge once a minute to keep up the casting speed buff, but you should be keeping up judgement of light on the boss/main target. the healing players receive from the debuff on the target counts towards your total healing done and can be a huge part of your healing done in a fight.

here is a divine sacrifice macro that will cancel the buff that causes you to take damage from raid damage, but will leave up the buff from divine guardian that just flat reduces raid damage by 20%. you have to double tap it unfortunately, even if you switch around the cancelaura and casts (i'm also not good at making macros, so maybe it can be altered to work with a single button mash!)
#showtooltip Divine Sacrifice
/cancelaura Divine Sacrifice
/cast Divine Sacrifice

Edited September 15, 2022 by brainlag

[lolmaru 0]

i'm confused because going through this and wowhead's paladin guide the author's list completely different stat priority. So, which one is it? Crit or Haste? I"m going to assume this guide is inaccurate because the paladin discord is basically saying crit is terrible as well as the icy veins guide.

Edited October 4, 2022 by lolmaru
added info

[Sellinz 14]

10 hours ago, lolmaru said:

i'm confused because going through this and wowhead's paladin guide the author's list completely different stat priority. So, which one is it? Crit or Haste? I"m going to assume this guide is inaccurate because the paladin discord is basically saying crit is terrible as well as the icy veins guide.

Hey lolmaru, I appreciate you checking out my guide and offering that feedback, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by your last little bit there, maybe you meant to refer to the WoWhead guide instead of Icy-veins? But I strongly believe in crit both as a throughput tool and a means for mana regen, Crits value is largely nerfed due to the changes to Absolution, 100% agree with that but I think with shorter fight lengths which we will undoubtedly see here soon I think its value only goes up though there really isn't a *bad* stat for Holy Paladin.

[Phunk 0]

Why is there no mention of Divine Plea on either the spell summary or the cooldown section?

Avenging Wrath only mentions the damage increase provided, but it provides both damage and healing increase.

[Sellinz 14]

6 hours ago, Phunk said:

Why is there no mention of Divine Plea on either the spell summary or the cooldown section?

Avenging Wrath only mentions the damage increase provided, but it provides both damage and healing increase.

Hey! These were oversights on my end and something I'll make sure to update the guide to reflect that.

[Ardellei 0]

At my current gear: With a base of 20% haste (prio) and 17% crit, unbuffed. My first cast of holy light is 1.9 seconds, my second goes down to 1.5, a full second shorter cast than baseline Holy light with no haste -- Meaning vs a "no haste" paladin, in 3 casts; I can cast a fourth. Effectively adding 17% chance to crit to my total 4 spells vs the 3. More casts are always better, the idea that 1 crit spell outperforms the ability to pump an entire additional holy light into a target in the same time frame is utterly ridiculous, Even if ALL three crit. (doubtful) you're only doing about 5k more healing on each heal. The 4 casts of Holy light from the haste paladin DO NOT NEED TO CRIT to do the same amount of healing, and if THEY DO CRIT (which you'll have a higher chance of at least 1 crit due to more casts)

*Time*
Time  (crit build) 2.5s + 2s +2s = 6.5s
Time (haste build) 1.93s + 1.54s + 1.54s + 1.54s = 6.55s

*Throughput*
(Crit build) 15k(crit)+15k(crit)+15k(crit)= 45k.
(Haste build, same seconds in duration of casts) 11k+11k+11k+11k (All noncrit) = 44k.

All with the chance of an additional crit on any cast, which makes the consistent noncrit non-rng healing 1k short of perfect RNG for a crit build, even with base stats of 4% crit as we assumed the crit build had 0 haste, we too much assume the haste build has 0 crit.

The idea that crit outweighs haste is silly and frankly misleading.

** Additionally, all of this math was done without judgements of the pure up -- with scales with an additional 15% haste of your base number, meaning the more haste you have base, the more haste you generate -- potentially even pushing out a FIFTH heal in the time the crit paladin does 3, even with both having judgements due to the lower starting co-efficient.

Maybe revise the guide.

[Sellinz 14]

23 hours ago, Ardellei said:

At my current gear: With a base of 20% haste (prio) and 17% crit, unbuffed. My first cast of holy light is 1.9 seconds, my second goes down to 1.5, a full second shorter cast than baseline Holy light with no haste -- Meaning vs a "no haste" paladin, in 3 casts; I can cast a fourth. Effectively adding 17% chance to crit to my total 4 spells vs the 3. More casts are always better, the idea that 1 crit spell outperforms the ability to pump an entire additional holy light into a target in the same time frame is utterly ridiculous, Even if ALL three crit. (doubtful) you're only doing about 5k more healing on each heal. The 4 casts of Holy light from the haste paladin DO NOT NEED TO CRIT to do the same amount of healing, and if THEY DO CRIT (which you'll have a higher chance of at least 1 crit due to more casts)

*Time*
Time  (crit build) 2.5s + 2s +2s = 6.5s
Time (haste build) 1.93s + 1.54s + 1.54s + 1.54s = 6.55s

*Throughput*
(Crit build) 15k(crit)+15k(crit)+15k(crit)= 45k.
(Haste build, same seconds in duration of casts) 11k+11k+11k+11k (All noncrit) = 44k.

All with the chance of an additional crit on any cast, which makes the consistent noncrit non-rng healing 1k short of perfect RNG for a crit build, even with base stats of 4% crit as we assumed the crit build had 0 haste, we too much assume the haste build has 0 crit.

The idea that crit outweighs haste is silly and frankly misleading.

** Additionally, all of this math was done without judgements of the pure up -- with scales with an additional 15% haste of your base number, meaning the more haste you have base, the more haste you generate -- potentially even pushing out a FIFTH heal in the time the crit paladin does 3, even with both having judgements due to the lower starting co-efficient.

Maybe revise the guide.

Hey Ardellei, first off let me say thank you for checking out my guide and putting so much effort into your post, there is a lot going on with what you posted and I do agree with a lot of it; I think as boss fights get shorter and shorter which is the trend with Wrath Classic specifically  I do agree Haste is becoming more and more valuable and a revision is due and will be posted in the next couple of days. I do think Crit is wildly undervalued though in a lot of places and as you stated in your post they're a lot closer than a lot of people seem to think, I don't think Crit is bad but in the context of Wrath Classic where bosses are dying in less than 2 minutes and with new tools available to Holy Paladin to regenerate Mana, Haste does look particularly strong.

[Ardellei 0]

With perfect RNG, they are close -- Yeah, but as stated above -- Assuming lets say a 30% crit chance, which is realistic in current gear only 1 of your 3 casts would crit! Meaning 11k+11k+ 15k, now you're 8k behind in healing in just 3 casts. Crit is a good stat, don't get me wrong and a lot of gear has both crit AND haste. (and obviously my example has extremes of both spectrums for brevity and ease of explanation.) That adds up, especially over the course of a 6 minute fight, the haste build can easily dump more than a million healing over the crit build.. Just multiply my first example by 100 for a 6.50 fight, and reduce the actual crit rate to a realistic 30%. But yes, in extremely short fights crit does stay closer -- but as we move into harder content, or challenge modes in Uldar -- Haste will make itself known the obvious choice.

(Not to mention heal sniping >.>)

[NemesisOmega 2]

Can we potentially get a list with the pre-hard mode BIS recommendations?  Plenty of people won't be doing hard modes for a few weeks and knowing which gear is recommended is helpful when filling out my loot wishlists.

[Sellinz 14]

15 hours ago, NemesisOmega said:

Can we potentially get a list with the pre-hard mode BIS recommendations?  Plenty of people won't be doing hard modes for a few weeks and knowing which gear is recommended is helpful when filling out my loot wishlists.

Hey! It's something to look into for sure, did you have any specific slots you were wondering about on the list? I will try to compile something for ya though here in a little bit even if we don't make a separate list.

[NemesisOmega 2]

I was interesting in alternatives for basically everything that was ilevel 252 or higher, including the weapon. It'd be helpful to know what's next best while waiting for the hardmode gear to drop.

I am also curious about the trinket, a 2% chance to proc on 800 mana saved sounds rather low, but I assume it must math out better than alternatives such as the JC trinket.

[Cincofone 1]

Quick question about Enchanted Tear for blue sockets:  What does the Enchanted Tear provide that the Dazzling Forest Emerald (8 intellect and 4 mana per 5 seconds) doesn't?  It seems that you get more out of the Dazzling Forest Emerald because it gives 2 more intelligence and 4 mana per 5 seconds which is your third best stat.

Thank you for the guide!

Edited January 20, 2023 by Cincofone

[Sellinz 14]

17 hours ago, NemesisOmega said:

I was interesting in alternatives for basically everything that was ilevel 252 or higher, including the weapon. It'd be helpful to know what's next best while waiting for the hardmode gear to drop.

I am also curious about the trinket, a 2% chance to proc on 800 mana saved sounds rather low, but I assume it must math out better than alternatives such as the JC trinket.

https://eightyupgrades.com/set/5u6QvDW4k5JaPbk1RYVvCF - this should be what you're looking for assuming 0 hardmodes in 25 man!

And Soul Preserver is so strong because of the amount of abilities you have to proc it which will basically cause it to proc on CD almost every time, the healing done by your splash from Holy Light, Beacon, etc, all have a chance to proc it. as a Holy Paladin your throughput will always be strong it's just a matter of maintaining mana.

[Sellinz 14]

17 hours ago, Cincofone said:

Quick question about Enchanted Tear for blue sockets:  What does the Enchanted Tear provide that the Dazzling Forest Emerald (8 intellect and 4 mana per 5 seconds) doesn't?  It seems that you get more out of the Dazzling Forest Emerald because it gives 2 more intelligence and 4 mana per 5 seconds which is your third best stat.

Thank you for the guide!

Hey! so the Intellect we lose ends up being a net SP/throughput loss as there aren't any set bonuses in the 'BiS' set up that offers any intellect for matching any bonuses. Intellect is by far king and losing out on what ends up being a 6 int loss for in a best case 11 sp and 8 MP5 isn't worth it.

[Cincofone 1]

On 1/20/2023 at 12:22 PM, Sellinz said:

Hey! so the Intellect we lose ends up being a net SP/throughput loss as there aren't any set bonuses in the 'BiS' set up that offers any intellect for matching any bonuses. Intellect is by far king and losing out on what ends up being a 6 int loss for in a best case 11 sp and 8 MP5 isn't worth it.

Oops, that my fault.  I definitely read that wrong.  That definitely makes sense now that I properly read it :).  Thanks again.

[NemesisOmega 2]

Awesome, thanks.  That answers my questions.  I do have another one, the buffs and glyph pages show Seal of Light & its glyph as the preferred choice, but the notes further down on the glyph page indicate that we should be using the Wisdom glyph.  Which of these is correct?

[Sellinz 14]

On 1/22/2023 at 1:57 AM, NemesisOmega said:

Awesome, thanks.  That answers my questions.  I do have another one, the buffs and glyph pages show Seal of Light & its glyph as the preferred choice, but the notes further down on the glyph page indicate that we should be using the Wisdom glyph.  Which of these is correct?

Hey, Wisdom is the correct choice right now, when we progress into later tiers and we have more access to strong regen trinkets we'll go for Light.

[Magneith 0]

Note you can use a guru's elixir + mighty thoughts and still get 65 intellect but also all other main stats by 20. And for some that might be a lot cheaper. I know on my realm the flasks are 70-80g ea.

[Eranise 0]

Why do we need Improved devotion aura? it doesnt stack with h-druids tree aura, so we are wasting points in raid situation. 

For 5-men without pala-tank - yes. For 25-men raids we can assume that we have a druid. So it should be 52/7/8 build (with 4 more free point).

Or am i missing something? Or is it just less specific build, suitable for every situation? 

[Sellinz 14]

On 4/3/2023 at 1:24 PM, Eranise said:

Why do we need Improved devotion aura? it doesnt stack with h-druids tree aura, so we are wasting points in raid situation. 

For 5-men without pala-tank - yes. For 25-men raids we can assume that we have a druid. So it should be 52/7/8 build (with 4 more free point).

Or am i missing something? Or is it just less specific build, suitable for every situation? 

Hey! It's more the guarantee of having it at all times, not every raid group is going to include a resto druid especially as groups are cutting more and more healers and typically Paladin will stay in their healing spec as Holy Paladin is typically a lot stronger than Resto druid in Wrath. There is also the chance that the Druid is out of range (on a fight like Thorim) or if the druid dies you're now missing the increased healing bonus for what are marginal benefits elsewhere. 

[Fransvds 0]

hi 

in the p3 bis list i would take 

pharos gloves over the tier gloves 

starshine circle over the lurid

boots of the courageous over the sabatons of tremoring earth 

bindings of winter gale over the bracers of the broken bond 

what do u guys think ? 

[NemesisOmega 2]

Hey, a couple of issues with the phase 4 gear guide.  You've linked the Revered ring from the Ashen Verdict, not the Exalted one. You've also recommended Corrupted Silverplate Leggings for the legs, indicating they drop from 25 man heroic, but they are apparently from 10 man heroic (according to AtlasLoot).

Edited October 9, 2023 by NemesisOmega
typo

[Sellinz 14]

9 hours ago, NemesisOmega said:

Hey, a couple of issues with the phase 4 gear guide.  You've linked the Revered ring from the Ashen Verdict, not the Exalted one. You've also recommended Corrupted Silverplate Leggings for the legs, indicating they drop from 25 man heroic, but they are apparently from 10 man heroic (according to AtlasLoot).

Hey, good catch on these. Will be fixed soon, thank you! 🙂

[NemesisOmega 2]

Also just noticed that you've listed the shield as coming from Ulduar.  Looks like you got the right boss but cited the wrong raid.