Heroic Garrosh Advice - Seeking

[Zilthy 36]

We have had a good full night on H-Garrosh last week, and are working on him fully now (so sad, missed a night this week with all of our tanks being gone on vacation or out of town working).

 

Now, for the questions:

 

On our first round of attempts, a mage and I were handling the Engineers.  That was entertaining.  Never had done that before, and learned fairly quickly that not only did I have to watch the timer and be there, but also not draw focus from Warbringers nor draw aggro from Wolfrider on way back.

 

After my learning curve, I think I should be able to reliably get the engineers down, and not need procs or cds to do so, provided I hit them with embers and conflag/backdraft charges available.  That would free up the mage to fully dish out damage on Garrosh and adds.  Does this make sense to do?  And am I correct in thinking that I should be able to down the engineers solo and reliably without procs or cds?  The mage cannot, that is why both of us were doing them.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I was soloing it in 578 quite comfortably so yes you can do it.

Set up your portal for the way there and gateway for the way back. You will only get one engineer anyway.

As soon as Desecrate is thrown you can begin running to the engineer. Make sure to drop RoF and spam FnB incinerate to cap embers. I also advise using one conflag and Havocing the boss.

At this point the engineer is about to spawn, so use your teleport and unleash 3 back to back chaos bolts. If you have a tricket proc up then 2 is enough for you to finish off with a SB. Otherwise play it safe and do 3x CB.

Simples.

[Lockybalboa 618]

I don't attack Garrosh until the adds come out so that my trinkets won't proc till then. DPSing adds/Garrosh as I move to the Eng procs my trinkets and gets me 2-3 embers to play with. Two CBs in to the Eng with trinkets total stomps the bastard.

 

Second Eng (when we got a second one, we don't anymore) I would do with DS. Again, two CBs maybe a SB on top rolls them.

 

Any warlock over about 575 should be able to solo 10man Engs with some practice and wisdom.

[Drafty53 17]

Just adding my 2 cents. I have been soloing engineers for our group since our early Garrosh progression (I was probably 575ish when I started soloing them). I set up my gateway and portal for optimal movement (I actually use my portal to get away from garrosh and to the engineer, and then use the gateway to get back).  I employ the Locky strat with a few minor differences...I wait to open on Garrosh until first set of adds get close, at which point I cast:

 

Cast 1x Incernate, Pop DS, 2x Conflag, Cast RoF, FnB Immo, Use Portal, Trinkets have "normally" procced at this point (DAMN YOU PBOI!) and I have time to usually cast 2x CBs into Garrosh, Glyphed Havoc Garrosh, short run to Engineer range from Portal location and Unload 2 CBs into Engineer + Garrosh. With DS + any other trinket proc, 2 CBs will melt engineer.

 

This allows me to get 4 CB's into Garrosh with DS + PBoI in the opener despite having to do engineer duties...assuming PboI procs of course =).

 

Now I know the FnB Immo may not be the most ideal part of that rotation but that + RoF gives me more then enough embers as I prefer to cast 2x CB Garrosh before I run to engineer as opposed to FnB Incernate Garrosh + Adds anyways.

 

Lastly, and we never get a second engineer anymore, but if you do on the regular, you will have to learn your output threshold. Saving 2x Conflags for use right before second engineer is definitely worth it for 2 fast CBs.  I know personally, early on in our first couple kills, I would use my second potion just to be safe on that second engineer.  If you have decent haste, the 3 CBs before the cast goes out is possible, but make sure you have 6 backdraft stacks and are at engineer when he spawns, being late really hurts on that second one.  Another alternate strat can be employed if your blessed with a disc priest as he/she can help on the second engineer.

 

TLDR: At 582 as a destro lock, you should be able to solo the engineers, whether its 1 or 2 that you get.

 

P.S. I noticed you were at 10% hit in your armory... Not sure if that's on purpose or not.

[Zilthy 36]

First of all, thank you so far on the replies.

 

I do have no worries about getting them if I have trinkets or Dark Soul up (especially the first one, where I would have both) but as mentioned, doing without cd's as I  was saving Dark Soul for intermission (would not always be back up for that).

 

From what it sounds like, as long as I make sure to have 3 embers (and even some backdraft) I should be able to pop the engineer down.  Currently my haste is 12,272k which puts my CB at a 2.33 sec cast normally and 1.6 sec cast with backdraft.

 

I did not want to get in to a whole haste vs crit thing though, but I am considering tweaking that a bit on this fight.  *shrug*

 

As far as the 10% hit, it's actually 15.01%.  Armory is being brain dead and not showing expertise as hit right now.

 

As far as movement, I had been using my Demonic Circle to get there.  My gateway was being funky though, guessing that could be my placement (getting hit by AOE and dying or out of range and going away) so I was just burning rush on way back.

 

The other thing I forgot to mention is that we are doing the not kill the weapon strat, so starting out standing on the throne (but, don't think that matters) but that led to the initial timing/movement issue at first of learning to avoid getting focused/hamstrung, but made it a bit further of a run. :D

Edited August 24, 2014 by Zilthy

[Liquidsteel 279]

The Warbringers fixate on the closest target, so you can drop a stun on them once they're stacked up.

 

With that much haste and at least 3 charges backdraft (really is advisable to have one chaos bolt hastened) you will have no issues getting it down in time.

 

Dropping the first weapon out seems daft as you have all trinkets and cooldowns up so there's no chance of dying to it, and just adds unnecessary movement. I'd fight to change this, but alas I don't know your raid leader to can't help there. My guild doesn't kill weapons either, but the first weapon is such a non factor that it can be cleaved down along with the first pack of adds.

[Zilthy 36]

I will bring up the part on the weapon, our RL is usually very open to suggestions.  So, all stack on garrosh, cleave first weapon down, then up on throne, drop 2nd there?

[Liquidsteel 279]

Yep.

[Gnar 26]

Because PBI hates me I can reliably open on Garrosh on the pull (...sigh) but I always only use one Conflag and no DS unless we have and extra crit banner in the intermission since I solo there as well. When adds come out, I make sure I'm at least at two embers and open depending on the 4pc with a precast mass Immo or precast mass Incin.  Then both charges of Conflag, Incin,Immolate to generate embers while I'm away for maybe 2 ticks each since those adds get slaughtered.  Obviously RoF is up the whole time before I leave.  To get to the engi I use a gateway and have the gateway on the engi's front door because of CB's travel time.  Havoc Garry, take gateway, dual to tri CB depending on procs, and then I run straight at Garry with Burning Rush and when in range take Circle to avoid aggroing the shaman and since it's just faster in general.  I find this way works best because if you do manage to aggro the shaman, you can drag him into the iron star path and port right out with Circle leaving him getting hit and not you.  If your reverse Circle and Gateway, you are limited on getting back by the Gateways position and you lose valuable AoE damage on adds that give the rest of your raid more Garry uptime.

 

Also, this is done with the described stack 1st, throne 2nd if you get it method.

[Liquidsteel 279]

If your reverse Circle and Gateway, you are limited on getting back by the Gateways position and you lose valuable AoE damage on adds that give the rest of your raid more Garry uptime.

You don't though.

 

You run with KJC and spam FnB spells until you're at max range of Garrosh. FnB Conflag, Havoc, and teleport in front of the engineer just as he appears. First pack of adds are dead around the time you Havoc Garrosh anyway.

[Zilthy 36]

Thank you everyone for your tips and suggestions.   Although I did end up having a couple of flubs during the night, it did work out and I started to get a lot smoother on the engineers.

 

Now to just get more comfortable and smoother on that part.

 

I am sure that I will end up having more questions on this fight though. :D

 

Although we are not killing the first weapon, I did end up standing with the melee, which also helped smooth out travel time to the engineer.

[Gnar 26]

You don't though.

 

You run with KJC and spam FnB spells until you're at max range of Garrosh. FnB Conflag, Havoc, and teleport in front of the engineer just as he appears. First pack of adds are dead around the time you Havoc Garrosh anyway.

I suppose you are right saying you don't lose DPS but you certainly don't gain any. A Gateway at max range is almost as instant (with minir glyph or stone) and Circle back still leaves you much more freedom getting back if you are repeatedly slow. You can port again to Garrosh's max range and porting has less chance to pull than Gateway since you "blink". And like I said, shit hits the fan you can pull the shaman into the star and port out. I think it really just comes down to preference but u will need to use both so fid a path that works for you repeatedly.

[Zagam 1,982]

Gateway is a better, safer alternative to the teleport for getting out of the way of the Iron Star.  It covers more distance, thus reduces your overall damage taken.  Use the port to get to the engineer and the Gateway to get away from the Iron Star.  I'm sure it can be done the other way around, so there's no wrong or right, but for a fight like Garrosh, maximizing damage while minimizing damage taken is always going to put you ahead.

[Liquidsteel 279]

Gateway on the return journey also wins you style points as you return to the stack point ahead of your Havoc'd Chaos Bolt.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Liquidsteel

[Gnar 26]

Gateway is a better, safer alternative to the teleport for getting out of the way of the Iron Star.  It covers more distance, thus reduces your overall damage taken.  Use the port to get to the engineer and the Gateway to get away from the Iron Star.  I'm sure it can be done the other way around, so there's no wrong or right, but for a fight like Garrosh, maximizing damage while minimizing damage taken is always going to put you ahead.

Well, SacPact nullifies everything regardless and still either way gives you enough time to get back to the stack but this style point stuff... I might have to flip it around now.

[Zilthy 36]

I have been using the Demonic Circle: Teleport to get to the engineer and the gateway to get back.  One thing that was throwing a wrench in things was getting fixated and hamstrung occasionally.   Still working out my positioning there, but also getting a Hand of Freedom helped that out too.

 

We did start switching to killing first weapon, and that went well, but caused a few issues (I think the same issues though as when not killing the weapon, which was movement of garrosh).

 

I hate missing on the engineers though, I should not.  Some were the hamstring (solved) others are making sure I move on time and making sure I have the resources:  Making sure that I have 3 embers and 2 backdraft up (In case i have no procs when getting there, which happens often enough).  Missing on any of those can cause a miss, and I do not like that.  I do not think anyone else in the raid likes it either.

 

I did find it amusing one the one time where I apparently fat fingered something, got to the engineer, and then noticed I only had about 7 emberbits.  The thought that came to mind was "Oh, this is not going to turn out well now, is it"  That only happened once.

 

*sigh*  I wish there was some way to practice this that did not involve raid wiping.

 

It was mostly frustrating when starting the first half of the night, and never missing, then the switching things around, and *gak*

 

My performance on this fight though (and the role of killing engineers) is so far, no where near what I would like it to be, and would welcome any help/feedback/assistance.

 

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/PTd4jr7azXHtGAM2

Edited August 26, 2014 by Zilthy

[Liquidsteel 279]

The way I did it (and this is not the be all and end all) was to start moving as soon as the desecrate landed. By this point the adds were all bunched up nicely around Garrosh. Yes, once or twice an add would chase me, but never did I get ham stringed. Helps if you run in a curve and not go near them. What we did was just have someone stun them once they were in range and you have plenty of time to run out. 

 

Below I'll link an old kill back on 10 man. I have to do 2 engineers and you can see how I approach it, plus how we deal with the weapon. I think we had a pretty good strategy overall.

 

 

Regarding the weapon, is your tank moving too much? He shouldn't move an inch until the weapon dies. I already know from countless pugs on alts that people either 1) stand too far out (EVERYONE should be literally inside the boss to facilitate the cleave), or 2) move the boss out of cleave range from the weapon (tanks fault).

[Zilthy 36]

As far as the weapon itself, that is fine.  It's the movement after that for positioning of second set of adds that was causing the issues there.

 

Thank you for the link, I will check that out.

 

I am curious, how many tries did it take you to become that smooth?

Edited August 26, 2014 by Zilthy

[Gnar 26]

Don't feel bad about fucking up the engi. Your group clearly trusts you to get it done and if they want the benefit they need to take the risk of wipes because of it. That being said, you will get it down to a science in no time. If you got this far, you know how to carefully plan your attacks. Also, if you have Burning rush you can nulify hamstrings which goes well with casting mass conflag after a mass incin to slow the group and fully shake them. Burning Rush is also nice for certain strats like mine where I place weapons coming out of the transition (when I usually want to get turret mode for a CB with procs) or P4 to kite/unclump. I'm not sure of the hamstring refresh rate but Unbound Will might also take it off long enough and if you get MC'd you can knock a million or so off your HP. Things to test to free up your Paladin for another offensive GCD. You have to take one of these talents anyway but as said previously to can just stay at range since they fixate closest targets first.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Gnar

[Liquidsteel 279]

As far as the weapon itself, that is fine.  It's the movement after that for positioning of second set of adds that was causing the issues there.

 

Thank you for the link, I will check that out.

 

I am curious, how many tries did it take you to become that smooth?

I probably fucked it up 10 times and it took us about 100 pulls, plus 20ish wipes over the following 2 weeks for second and third kills.

 

Having said that, fuck ups 5-10 were because I was trying to see how far I could push my DPS, and wasn't being a 100% team player. I stayed to AoE a few seconds too long some attempts, and once I tried to snipe Shadowburns from the first pack with Havoc and again was late by a couple seconds.

 

I eventually came to the following rule (at 578 ilvl)

 

• First Chaos Bolt must be under the effects of backdraft.
• If no trinket procs, cast 3 Chaos Bolts back to back.
• If KTT or PBI is still up, cast 2 Chaos Bolts and finish with a Shadowburn.
• For progress, make sure you are standing and waiting a second or two before he even appears, to really maximize every last mili second.

Also, be prepared to kill him but have the Iron Star still go off.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Liquidsteel

[Zagam 1,982]

Also, be prepared to kill him but have the Iron Star still go off.

Fuck. This. Happening.  Ugh, it was so frustrating when this happened.

[Zilthy 36]

I just want to say *thank you* *thank you* *thank you* to every one.  It took me a couple of nights, but finally was comfortable getting the engineers down reliably solo tonight.   In fact, I only had a couple of fails tonight:

 

Fail 1:  Had a wolf rider on me.  Warrior came to peel (I like our warrior, it's like having my own personal protector there) but he had a couple of wolf riders on him that time.  That did not turn out well.

 

Fail 2: One of those 'engineer dead, but went off'  awesome.

 

Fail 3: Had PBI procs up, fired off 2 chaos bolts and came back.  Saw that big ball of hate rolling out and was "Well, shucks.  Guess I should have stayed"

 

Now I am sure that I will have other questions, but I am pretty excited.  I am having fun with the engineers now, and starting to work on bringing up my dps while doing them, a big change from a couple of raid nights ago when my hands were shaking in panic from soloing them.

 

Oh wait, I do have another question (One that might seem completely noobish even) what do you do to speed up your recovery time between pulls?  I release, run back, using burning rush, grab any feather that has not been snarfed up by anyone else, but end up being one of the last one's back (I just cannot figure out how to run back any faster).   Or, if we have ressed, I am usually the last person ressed.

 

In either case, the group is waiting on me to finish up (putting out cookies, summoning/saccing demon, run over (with burning rush) putting down my circle, setting up gateway, run back).

 

My only response was "If you take all the feathers, or res me last, that is kind of how it is".  I think we decided tonight, that I no longer release, and am one of the first ressed, but does anyone have any tips on speeding this process up?  (Like I said, this probably sounds really dumb)

Edited August 29, 2014 by Zilthy

[Liquidsteel 279]

No you just have to suck it up and go through your 5 stage pre flight checks every damn pull. Garrosh really drags this out too with having to place gateway and portal.

[Zagam 1,982]

Fail 1 - not your fault.

Fail 2 - happens to us all.

Fail 3 - never leave the Engineer if you haven't WATCHED him croak.  One of my fails during progression, he lived with 2 HP because I didn't look back.  Now, even if I have two trinkets rolling and the first CB does 70% of his HP, I still send an Incinerate after the 2nd CB as insurance.

 

As for speedy recovery, if you're the only battle resser in the group, can't really do this, but I soulstone myself.  If we wipe, I immediately eat, drop cookies in the center, walk over to drop my teleport, put my gateway down, summon a pet out, sac it, and then press Dark Intent.  If you do run back, feel free to use your ember for an Ember Tap and chuck a Healthstone down to keep Burning Rush up as long as possible. 

[Liquidsteel 279]

To reiterate on the Fail 3 - You want to stay anyway because you can snipe the Shadowburn for the ember return.

 

Note, this was applicable in 578 ilvl because I haven't done 10 man in over 3 months, but in that scenario it was 2x Chaos Bolt - Shadowburn.

 

But yeah, never leave til he's done!