which Trinket to use (Destro)

[NoamNatan 1]

hey guys

last Sunday i finally got Kardris' Toxic Totem heroic version

i currently using Purified Bindings of Immerseus (heroic)

and Black Blood of Y'Shaarj (normal) can't decide which one should i keep

 

KTT or BBoY?

[Liquidsteel 279]

KTT no contest.

[NoamNatan 1]

I mean not only because its heroic version vs, normal which obvious

i mean BBoY's procs won't be still better then KTT's multistrike?

also BBoy has more potential high intellect

 

still KTT wins? :)

[Liquidsteel 279]

The fact that BBoY provides more intellect in this case is irrelevant, you still won't see a gain from using it over the KTT. Even at equal item levels, the decision between KTT and BBoY is down to personal preference. 

 

KTT still wins :)

[Soulzar 42]

The proc may end up much higher than KTT's proc... but it also starts out much lower.

 

You could cast 3 CB's at 14k int proc, or cast 3 CBs at 7k, 14k, 21k and average out around the same.  

 

BBoY requires more precise timing to snapshot the highest possible stacks.  KTT is just a flat 10s window which is more forgiving if you need to move or cancel a cast for any reason.

[Astynax 24]

The fact that BBoY provides more intellect in this case is irrelevant, you still won't see a gain from using it over the KTT. Even at equal item levels, the decision between KTT and BBoY is down to personal preference. 

 

KTT still wins

 ^^ Soooooorta......

 

 

 

 

 

KTT is RNG heavy, meaning it can beat BBoY, but requires good uptime and multistrike proccing to put it ahead, and it can actually fall behind BBoY without these two. BBoY is less RNG affected, but much harder to properly time Chaos Bolts for, and fucking that up makes it lose any potential gain.

 

Simple answer is KTT. Long answer is probably KTT. lol

[Liquidsteel 279]

I disagree. If you know how to use BBoY and can take advantage of the proc, you will see good (but not necessarily always better) results.

The problem is that many fights can screw you over with poorly timed procs, such as when you're running to drop bombs on Spoils or as you're going into a Garrosh intermission. Wasting a BBoY proc is far more punishing for your DPS than a missed KTT proc.

I like using BBoY because it's fun, but I think it's pretty telling that the majority of the highest ranked warlocks have stuck with KTT over the expansion rather than switching to BBoY.

[Astynax 24]

I disagree. If you know how to use BBoY and can take advantage of the proc, you will see good (but not necessarily always better) results.

The problem is that many fights can screw you over with poorly timed procs, such as when you're running to drop bombs on Spoils or as you're going into a Garrosh intermission. Wasting a BBoY proc is far more punishing for your DPS than a missed KTT proc.

I like using BBoY because it's fun, but I think it's pretty telling that the majority of the highest ranked warlocks have stuck with KTT over the expansion rather than switching to BBoY.

 

 

You're right, playing it at a game of averages. The issues I'm talking about are totally a "If you get a statistical anomaly". The fact that you get a BBoY/PBI proc going into a phase change or whatever is a thing, that happens sometimes... But It's also (generally) subject to randomness of a different type. It also helps that we can follow the rule of "Stacked buffs are better than bigger buffs" in that KTT may or may not line up with DS and PBI, which BBoY is almost guaranteed to do. The problem with KTT comes in either poor proc uptime, or poor multistrike proccing, proc rate, whatever. A multistrike chaos bolt is infinitely more powerful than a multistrike immolate, and if you just somehow happen to get a ton of the latter, and nearly none of the former, it's a lot of missed DPS. Generally, it will still outperform BBoY. It's just not as consistent in any way. That could be good or bad. It all just depends on randomness and things.

 

I guess I wasn't clear in my post, but essentially what I was attempting to say is "KTT is usually better, but BBoY is never bad, which KTT has the potential to be." 

[Liquidsteel 279]

I'm not really following, what do you mean by "KTT may or may not line up with DS and PBI, which BBoY is almost guaranteed to do"?

 

Both intellect procs are RPPM. They can both proc at poor moments and be wasted. The loss of missing two Chaos Bolts at 7+ stacks of BBoY is far greater than missing 2 Chaos Bolts during a KTT proc. 

 

Similarly, I feel like KTT is actually the much safer and reliable option. I've never really noticed huge swings in the damage which the multistrike offered. I think I've had as low as say 4.5%, with as much as 6%. If you're doing 100M damage over the course of a fight, that's still only 1.5M damage, not a huge amount. You'd probably lose a similar amount of damage from wasting high stacks of BBoY by having to move etc.

[Astynax 24]

I'm not really following, what do you mean by "KTT may or may not line up with DS and PBI, which BBoY is almost guaranteed to do"?

 

Both intellect procs are RPPM. They can both proc at poor moments and be wasted. The loss of missing two Chaos Bolts at 7+ stacks of BBoY is far greater than missing 2 Chaos Bolts during a KTT proc. 

Oh? For some reason I had it in my mind that BBoY was an ICD trinket like KTT? Either way, the fact that it's not confuses me about your first point? If they're both RPPM, and they both have the same RPPM (which they do)... I don't get how poorly timed procs is a problem with BBoY that is independent of KTT?

Similarly, I feel like KTT is actually the much safer and reliable option. I've never really noticed huge swings in the damage which the multistrike offered. I think I've had as low as say 4.5%, with as much as 6%. If you're doing 100M damage over the course of a fight, that's still only 1.5M damage, not a huge amount. You'd probably lose a similar amount of damage from wasting high stacks of BBoY by having to move etc.

Alright, I feel like we're making this comparison slightly unfair by talking about all of KTT v only some of BBoY. That is to say, we've yet to mention the decent chunk of secondaries on BBoY. Call it 800 mastery from BBoY. If you do 100M damage like your hypothetic (without the added stats), and using numbers from my Nazgrim fight last night, if ~42% of your damage comes from chaos bolt alone... 42M damage x .04% = 1.68M extra damage, before haste benefit (which I don't know how to calculate fairly), not counting all the other sources of damage. This is maybe a little irrelevant, but I feel like we're ignoring it in our discussion, and so the 5.2M damage from KTT Multistrike is the only thing in the equation., which is unfair.

As for the fact that you haven't noticed it: neither have I. But I don't fine tooth all my logs, if I feel like I was acceptable on that fight I leave it alone. I know for a fact locky and Zag have (somewhere around here, probably) logs with something stupid like a 2 or 3% multistrike rate on their KTT, and it's the cause of them switching. Again, in most scenarios, if it happens, you're probably not going to notice. It's probably going to be such a minuscule amount of min/maxing that it's irrelevant in lots of circumstances. Ultimately they're both playing a numbers game, and if RNJesus frowns upon you, it's going to hurt your DPS. BBoY just takes a little bit of that power away from him. KTT should win that numbers game most of the time, by a small margin. Sometimes it will lose because RNJesus doesn't love you, though. BBoY will always provide its benefits, and is therefore less affected thereby. I know there was a discussion on these forums a few months back where Zag and locky had this discussion with some logs that basically said "In general, there's hardly a difference, but RNJesus be damned."

[Liquidsteel 279]

My point was that more of BBoY's influence on your DPS comes from the stacking intellect proc, whereas KTT's damage is more evenly distributed between the passive multistrike and the active intellect proc.

 

They are both subject to the same RNG in terms of when they proc and whether or not you can make use of them, it's just that BBoY users suffer far more from this example than those with KTT. You also have a smaller window in which you can maximise the BBoY proc even when you can use it, due to wanting to capture it at 5+ stacks for maximum benefit. I'm not disputing that getting good procs of BBoY and snapshotting those 10 stack Chaos Bolts isn't amazing, I've had parses where BBoY was an absolute hero, but I do think using BBoY well is harder and more subject to overall RNG (both trinket and fight mechanics) than KTT.

 

Yes, the passive haste and mastery from BBoY is always good, but in my experience of using KTT it always gave around 5% damage give or take. I honestly believe it's a reliable proc and overall it's the safer and more reliable trinket to use.

 

On something like Iron Juggernaut on farm where you can happily plant your feet and ignore mechanics as a Destruction Warlock, I think the difference is negligible. On something like Heroic Blackfuse/Paragons/Garrosh where you can be targeted by a bunch of shit constantly, or be in the group doing engineer and planting weapons and dealing with multiple phase changes, KTT will be a much safer bet, especially for those still on progression. On 25 man farm I get to be a scumbag and have 0 responsibilities, so I enjoy messing around with BBoY and happily taking mechanics to the face, but you can't always do this.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Liquidsteel

[Astynax 24]

I'd say that your summary is probably pretty solid. I honestly don't think there's enough difference in the two to see a consistent, meaningful, shift one direction or the other, but the differential would lend itself to KTT. But again, I feel like ultimately it's a lot of hullabaloo over a couple hundred DPS, that nobody's missing.

[Zagam 1,982]

I go with BBoY because it's more fun.  DPS variance between the two is LARGELY inconsequential (Multistrike vs 2200 secondary stats) and it comes down to RNG of when and where procs happen. 

[Desos 18]

RNG will and can screw you, but it can be a blessing too. Last raidnight I saw like everything from KTT.

2 procs in a 3:43 fight ~ 8.9% (directly after disenchanting a coined KTT, karma maybe?)

3 procs in a 4:42 fight ~ 10.6%

 

5 procs in a 3:34 fight ~ 23.3%

7 procs in a 5:16 fight ~ 22.1%

 

and I won´t start with the multistrike proc...

Edited September 12, 2014 by Desos

[Zagam 1,982]

I at least enjoy that you can use KTT or BBoY, based on your preference, and it's ok.  Some like one better, others like the other better.  I enjoy that you have the choice.

[Calol 5]

I personally am loving BBoY. Yes it takes more attention to detail since you have to time your CB better but I like the extra haste/mastery (yes secondaries don't mean a lot when it comes to dps but more is always better.)

[Desos 18]

Yeah, I would love to have a BBoY, just to see if the grass on the other side is really greener or not. Additionally it cripples my possibilities for an offspec, since both demo and affli(even if I don´t play affli) benefit so much more from BBoY.

I have one with my shadow, but it´s kind of selfexplanatory to use for a shadow. No 3 orbs? Apply both dots at 10 stacks. 3 Orbs? Apply both dots at 8-9 stacks and DP at 10 stacks, tada.

 

*insert "This is where I would put my BBoY...IF I HAD ONE"-Meme*