6.1 Demonology Guide

[Zagam 1,982]

Try not to - but ok if you're moving.  That's addressed in guide.

[gahhda 95]

Try not to - but ok if you're moving.  That's addressed in guide.

 

Again...that's entirely subjective to the window in which you spend your demonic fury. Glyph of DS is a dps loss for all talent combinations not including demonbolt. With a 20 second window, chances are you're going to spend a full clip by using ToC, and you'll do it significantly more effectively. I suppose 2pc/4pc could effect that at level 90, but there is no 'SF >> ToC' in any case. It's much more unclear than that, and leans in the favor or ToC > SF in most cases.

[Zagam 1,982]

Yeah I mean I'll know more Tuesday - just most of the testing I've done, in terms of DPS and DF generation and how/when to spend, should try to use Soul Fire with procs and buffs including Metamorphosis but as we've seen, it usually doesn't matter.  I had amazing pulls using ToC > SF and vice versa.  They're close enough to do whatever.  I usually try not to say 'do whatever' because no one accepts that as an answer and always want an absolute answer.

[gahhda 95]

Yeah I mean I'll know more Tuesday - just most of the testing I've done, in terms of DPS and DF generation and how/when to spend, should try to use Soul Fire with procs and buffs including Metamorphosis but as we've seen, it usually doesn't matter.  I had amazing pulls using ToC > SF and vice versa.  They're close enough to do whatever.  I usually try not to say 'do whatever' because no one accepts that as an answer and always want an absolute answer.

 

There is a relatively absolute answer, and it's what simc does currently. It banks a few (4) MC procs so it always has some to use in meta, and it prioritizes SF with procs/DS up, and otherwise uses ToC. ToC is more efficient over time, but SF is more efficient for burst. If you enter meta to prevent DF capping, in particular, you want to use ToC, unless below execute.

[Zagam 1,982]

Makes perfect sense - that's how I play it now and planned on playing in the future.  I'll see how I can write it up to portray that better.

[BaleFire 0]

Question One: Gems? Int over secondary stats? Or still push for high Crit and Haste?

 

Question Two: We will have one or two trinkets with Multi Strike as an option come 6.0.2, were should Multi Strike come into play with your formula of Crit=Haste>Mastery?

 

Thanks in advance. Looking forward to the destruction guide.

[Adrammalech 2]

Really nice guide. I am just coming back to WoW after a 2 year break and plan on playing demo as my main spec myself. Everything you came up with in your guide is pretty much how I was expecting demo to work with one exception, the way you are treating demonbolt. It seems like it would be more effective to cast an initial demonbolt as soon as the demonbot buff fades to reapply the timer for the new buff, then cast the other 2 or 3 demonbolts you can afford during that demonbolt buff either during DS if available or during any procs (obviously during both if possible). Taking this style of play I would expect that demonic synergy would allow for the highest possible dps single target. I would also expect since taking Archimonde's Darkness allows for some flexibility in when you cast Dark Soul to line it up with procs that soul repository and unstable talisman would possibly overtake copeland's clarity. Have you attempted to sim this style of play to see if it is better? I was trying to the other day but I completely suck at editing the APL.

[Adrammalech 2]

Question One: Gems? Int over secondary stats? Or still push for high Crit and Haste?

 

Question Two: We will have one or two trinkets with Multi Strike as an option come 6.0.2, were should Multi Strike come into play with your formula of Crit=Haste>Mastery?

 

Thanks in advance. Looking forward to the destruction guide.

Answer 1: Sockets in gear are going to be much rarer in WoD. Also gems with primary stats will not longer be a thing. You are going to probably be gemming for haste for the reliable fury generation.

 

Answer 2: multistrike is barely behind mastery, almost negligibly so. trinkets that have or proc multistrike won't be bad for us, but haste crit int or spell power will be better.

[gahhda 95]

Before you talk about 'stat weights' from simc, please read: https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/7275-scale-factors-and-you-an-explanation-of-stat-weights/

[danny2001k 0]

Not sure, but its ilvl was pretty low.  It'll likely be a solid pre-raid trinket, but you'll want to replace it ASAP.

 

 

Question about the Darkmoon trinkets:

The  Sandman's Pouch thinket can be upgraded 2 times using:   Inferno Tarot and Molten Tarot  and it will get to ilvl 665.

 

The raids wont start right away and this trinket will pe available. Isn't the 665 ilvl trinket an alternative. Could we see some simulations?

 

LE: I can't find the upgraded trinket on wowdb and wowhead :(

 

Danny

Edited October 13, 2014 by danny2001k

[Adrammalech 2]

Before you talk about 'stat weights' from simc, please read: https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/topic/7275-scale-factors-and-you-an-explanation-of-stat-weights/

 

Yeah I actually meant to say mastery not haste, though technically that is an over simplification since you should really sim the results for your current gear/race and gem your gear accordingly. My bad though, probably shouldn't post at this hour.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Adrammalech

[Lockybalboa 618]

Yeah I actually meant to say mastery not haste, though technically that is an over simplification since you should really sim the results for your current gear/race and gem your gear accordingly. My bad though, probably shouldn't post at this hour.

 

 

Race makes basically no difference post-6.0

[Adrammalech 2]

Race makes basically no difference post-6.0

 

It is a smaller difference but still a difference if you are min/maxing. I ran sims myself comparing all races @ mythic gear for demo and yes, from a dps perspective the difference between goblin troll and blood elf was negligible with orc and undead appearing to fall off at higher ilvls. However each of their stat weights were slightly different for the same gear. Different enough so that the same stat wasn't simming at the top for every race, so yes if you are min/maxing to decide what gem you are going to use it may be different based on your race.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Adrammalech

[Lockybalboa 618]

You're talking about a small difference of a small difference of a small difference (stats make up X% of DPS, the gem/item/enchant you're looking at makes up Y% of X, your race makes up Z% of Y thus making S% of X) This Russian Nesting Doll of differences becomes so small that it is in no practical way impacting the total sum of your DPS.

 

DPS isn't made up of +/- 10 stats, or even +/- 1000 stats, many times not even +/- 10,000 stats. DPS comes from class mechanics, fight mechanics, and a powerful understanding of how they interact.

 

So although it is technically correct to say that race effects DPS, race makes basically no difference post-6.0

[Zagam 1,982]

Ran new Demo Simcraft models - Supremacy is 0.5% behind Synergy single target but Supremacy wins at 2+ targets. 

 

Also, I'm seeing some crazy shit with Chaos Wave - I forgot how significantly it got buffed.  With our T16 4pc, I think you'd do well to spam Touch of Chaos for Chaos Wave procs than to use your DF with Soul Fire.  I think Gahhda was saying that ToC was more efficient, but now I get it and see it with how high Chaos Wave's damage contribution is.  You still don't want to cast CW, but the procs are NASTY good.

 

At 3 targets, Essence of Yu'lon becomes Demo's largest damage source in 6.0 at level 90.  In fact, it looks to be such a good damage source that I'm not sure the 616 cloak gets replaced by any 630/640 cloak at level 100.  Will be interesting to see if they let this cloak continue to be powerful in WoD.

[Oldtrout 7]

I don't know a lot about the way simcraft works, but when it runs grimoire of synergy through, is it considering completely perfect alignments of the proc with our burn phases? If it's only 0.5% ahead in the absolute best situation possible, I'd imagine for the majority of the time it'll be a good deal behind.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Oldtrout

[Eddie 16]

So are the folks who know the most around here prepare for the possible influx of Demo locks who are going to come in here saying that Demo feels clunky, and they have trouble building demonic fury? The site guide that went live today puts haste as the least valuable stat for Demo, which seems misleading to me, since its always helped smooth out how the spec plays.

[Mero 0]

Also, I'm seeing some crazy shit with Chaos Wave - I forgot how significantly it got buffed.  With our T16 4pc, I think you'd do well to spam Touch of Chaos for Chaos Wave procs than to use your DF with Soul Fire.  I think Gahhda was saying that ToC was more efficient, but now I get it and see it with how high Chaos Wave's damage contribution is.  You still don't want to cast CW, but the procs are NASTY good.

 

So will our rotation be:

- Keep dots up

- Spam SF with MC to build DF

- Spam Shadowbolt if no MC to build DF

- When a proc goes up use Dark Soul, enter in meta and spam ToC praying for a proc of T16 4p

?

[Zagam 1,982]

I don't know a lot about the way simcraft works, but when it runs grimoire of synergy through, is it considering completely perfect alignments of the proc with our burn phases? If it's only 0.5% ahead in the absolute best situation possible, I'd imagine for the majority of the time it'll be a good deal behind.

You can modify the APL language to try to have burn phases within Synergy's proc, but it's going to be rather inefficient.  We don't really have burn phases at 90 like we will at 100 in the same manner.  Synergy is just going to be a passive DPS bonus that you won't have to pay a lot of attention to because of the removal of snapshotting.  It'll still be a nice bonus to unload some MC procs if you have them, but it's not a stop what you're doing and use Chaos Bolt type mechanic.

 

I won't be using Synergy because very few fights in SoO dictate a single target situation.  I'm also not a fan of the pet proccing it for you and you proccing it for the pet - I kinda wish it was a pet/caster can proc it for both, but whatever.  Supremacy sims higher with multiple targets and I've been using Supremacy over Service for a while anyways.  For something like Protectors, the constant cleave is amazing.  For something like Sha of Pride, the adds aren't up long enough to justify Service.  Of course, Synergy could line up with other procs and give you an outlier DPS boost.  Supremacy will be rather consistent.  Either way, the minor difference in DPS shouldn't be enough to wipe you or make you world #1.

 

So are the folks who know the most around here prepare for the possible influx of Demo locks who are going to come in here saying that Demo feels clunky, and they have trouble building demonic fury? The site guide that went live today puts haste as the least valuable stat for Demo, which seems misleading to me, since its always helped smooth out how the spec plays.

If you don't know me, I've been Demo since I made my Warlock - there are lots of other experts out there, but I'm more than willing to help anyone out learn the spec.  I have tried over and over - but it's been a complicated spec until now.  Now, it's just build and dump.  There should be very little confusion or complications on building Demonic Fury and spending it in the best way possible.  Damien's site guide takes a look at stat WEIGHTS, not stat PERFORMANCE.  Read Gahhda's stat weight explanation for a better understanding and to realize that stat weights are not indicative of stat power at that item level - it's a distribution of DPS per point of secondary stats AT THAT GEAR LEVEL.  Also, the stat weights are VERY VERY close to each other at 90.  Close enough that you should always use higher item level gear - always (except to break Tier bonuses).

 

There's just not enough stuff as Demo to do for it to be clunky.  You'll either succeed at it or need to find out what you're messing up which really could only be 2 or 3 things that should be a simple fix for a Heroic/Mythic calibur player.

[Zagam 1,982]

So will our rotation be:

- Keep dots up

- Spam SF with MC to build DF

- Spam Shadowbolt if no MC to build DF

- When a proc goes up use Dark Soul, enter in meta and spam ToC praying for a proc of T16 4p

?

TL;DR for Demo

 

1.  Keep Corr/Doom up

2.  Spam Shadow Bolt/Soul Fire to build Demonic Fury

3.  Spam Touch of Chaos with no procs in Meta

4.  Spam Soul Fire with procs in Meta

 

When a proc happens, you'll shift into Meta to consume your Soul Fires and then spam ToC.  Either way, consuming your MC procs in caster or Meta form isn't going to shift your DPS very far.  You could actually be just fine doing nothing but spamming ToC in Metamorphosis because of the 4pc proc.  Soul Fire is still very potent to get your 2pc proc up, though.  Just don't overcomplicate things by spamming Soul Fire fishing for 2pc procs and such - just let procs like the 2pc and Synergy happen.

[Mero 0]

Thank you very much Zag for the very clear answer, as usual.

Just one more question: for levelling in Demo do you advise Wrathguard or Void? Levelling 1-90 i noticed that the Felguard/Wrathguard doesn't keep the aggro very well and dies more often than the super-magic-tank Void.

[Zagam 1,982]

Voidlord bitches and moans about wanting to go back to wherever he was.  The Wrathguard literally says "I live to be commanded" and has a stun and an AoE move.  His stun is 4 seconds on 30 sec CD, hits harder, and looks better. 

 

For elite mobs, you might want the Voidlord out, but for generic mobs/dungeons, Wrathguard is what's up.

[Zilthy 36]

I actually find the felguard grabs aggro better, but he is squishier.  For normal mobs, one things that really helps is to make sure you sustain an imp batallion.   I will normally make sure that I have 5 or so imps before pulling a big mob, they will go down really fast then.

 

What I will do is start out slow, one or two mobs at a time, and once I've built up, then start pulling like crazy.

 

And as Zag mentioned, Voidwalker just for elite mobs.

[Zagam 1,982]

Just glyph Imp Swarm while questing.  You're not going for sustained DPS - you're going for burst.  If you come up to an elite mob, Imp Swarm that shit. 

[Eddie 16]

 

 

There's just not enough stuff as Demo to do for it to be clunky.  You'll either succeed at it or need to find out what you're messing up which really could only be 2 or 3 things that should be a simple fix for a Heroic/Mythic calibur player.

 

That's good to hear. I've always like demo, but only after about 15k haste does it feel playable in Siege. Glad to hear that will no longer be a thing in WoD.