6.1 Demonology Guide

[Lockybalboa 618]

The secondary stats are so close it won't matter very much. I changed all of my cheap enchants (I think of "cheap" as less then 1k) but my pricey enchants Im not changing till either prices come down or I get a new item (pricey being 1k+)

[Nytemare 2]

Is Copeland's Clarityworth using? Just got it from big crate of salvage

Edited December 3, 2014 by Nytemare

[Kink 2]

Is Copeland's Clarityworth using? Just got it from big crate of salvage

I'd say so. It's one of the best trinkets you're going to see until blackrock foundry; the trinkets in highmaul are not that fancy for locks. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by Kink

[Djargo 4]

How do you guys use the trinket? Since you can only demonbolt 1 in the opener, do you save the on use for the 2nd (800fury) Demon bolt spam? or just use it in opener 

[Liquidsteel 279]

You can demonbolt 3 times with the correct opener. Haven't tested it myself but will try it once I get home.

[Lockstar 0]

You can demonbolt 3 times with the correct opener. Haven't tested it myself but will try it once I get home.

castsequence macro or it didn't happen :D

Edited December 3, 2014 by Lockstar

[Watermasta 7]

Please explain how you pull off this 3 demo bolt opener.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I'm at work. You need GoServ and either 7% haste or have to also use a lifetap.

The author of the Demonology guide on mmoc has just added it to his opening section. Castsequence macro included.

[Deamux 4]

Awesome, can't wait tot test it out!

 

Edit the edit:

It does work when I was fully raid buffed :)

Edited December 3, 2014 by Deamux

[Watermasta 7]

Has it been tested if Multistrike hits generate demonic fury?

[Deamux 4]

I'm really sad now, we couldn't kill the butcher. Not enough DPS. For me personally I seem to be maxed out at 18k - 18.5k. I'll post some logs soon in a different topic.

[Astynax 24]

I'm really sad now, we couldn't kill the butcher. Not enough DPS. For me personally I seem to be maxed out at 18k - 18.5k. I'll post some logs soon in a different topic.

Don't feel bad. We smashed our faces into it for the better part of three hours [beat attempt at 16% or so before we hit the timer] on Wednesday (before any of the raid had touched a normal mode boss) because "you should be able to go straight from heroic dungeon gear and a few CMs into heroic raid progression" - Blizzard, the liar. At some point towards the end, someone did the math and not counting tank dps, each member no matter how far we downsized to reduce DPS requirement had to pull something like 20.8k DPS, which I've only ever seen from pristine pulls, where the guy gets as close as possible to 100% uptime on the boss. Any boss. The guy is ridiculously gear gated.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Astynax

[Lockybalboa 618]

Logs of my HM Butcher kill:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wn3Rz8HfYgZ2aDhk/#type=damage-done

 

We had to drop two lower DPS to get the kill. Spriest and Enh sham that were at 14-15k

[Astynax 24]

Logs of my HM Butcher kill:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wn3Rz8HfYgZ2aDhk/#type=damage-done

 

We had to drop two lower DPS to get the kill. Spriest and Enh sham that were at 14-15k

Yeah, like I said, the math only counted DPSers damage, not tank or healers. We knew 20.8k was a little high, but even if we were 1.5k high, our average still looked about 1-2k low, no matter how many we dropped. (Stopped between 15 and 20, as we figured by that point it was imprudent, and we'd be better off spending time gearing everyone.) It was hasty, just to see how far off we really were.

[KoragonArt 0]

Logs of my HM Butcher kill:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wn3Rz8HfYgZ2aDhk/#type=damage-done

 

We had to drop two lower DPS to get the kill. Spriest and Enh sham that were at 14-15k

That's incredible.  Only MAYBE 70% of that hunter's output.  Marks hunters, man...

Edited December 6, 2014 by KoragonArt

[KoragonArt 0]

Also the 3x DB cast sequence works.  Feels a bit RNG being able to pull off the 3rd one smoothly.  Sometimes you have the fury, sometimes you don't.  With raid buffs it should be more consistent.  Don't like that I have to use imp swarm to make it work.

Edited December 6, 2014 by KoragonArt

[Astynax 24]

Also the 3x DB cast sequence works.  Feels a bit RNG being able to pull off the 3rd one smoothly.  Sometimes you have the fury, sometimes you don't.  With raid buffs it should be more consistent.  Don't like that I have to use imp swarm to make it work.

So... Obvious question is obvious: how much damage does this rob you of?/gain you on a 6 minute fight? (Maybe should go higher? Not sure.)

[spikeysquad 50]

Over the full fight I think that we're talking gaining not even one extra DB (because there's usually a bit of fury left over from just 2) compared to losing the damage of GoSuP Vs GoServ and having to glyph Imp Swarm. This is just a personal feeling as I don't have the skills to compare the numbers but it doesn't sound like a good trade off especially if you cannot line the extra felguard cds up with a bunch of adds or you finish the fight just before you get your last cd off.

Edited December 6, 2014 by spikeysquad

[Zagam 1,982]

Posted this in another thread as a thinking-out-loud moment.  Posting it here for relevancy.

 

 

After looking at logs, it's looking a lot more like you use DB every 40 seconds, not delaying it for DS.  The trade off is DS uptime because of how you delay it.  DB is too much damage to delay, so every 20 seconds you delay it for DS is a DPS loss, although combining it with Dark Soul compensates a small bit. 

Without glyphing it, this is how it looks:

0 seconds - DS + DB
40 seconds - DB
80 seconds - DB
120 seconds - DS + DB
160 seconds - DB
200 seconds - DB
240 seconds - DS + DB

DS uptime through 260 seconds would be 60/260 = 23%.

Basically without glyphing it, every 3rd one is DB phase + 30%.  Since DB is by far the highest damage source, you want to push it out as much as possible.  This is, of course, if you use it right in line every time.  This discredits trinket syncronization.

If you were to instead delay DB for a glyphed DS, you obviously would lose a lot.  No need to evaluate this.

If you glyph DS, then your values look like this if you do NOT delay DB for DS.

0 seconds - DS + DB
40 seconds - DB
60 seconds - DS
80 seconds - DB
120 seconds - DS + DB
160 seconds - DB
180 seconds - DS
200 seconds - DB
240 seconds - DS + DB

DS uptime through 260 seconds = 50/260 = 19%

Here, you are getting 3 DB phases with DS, the same as you would without the glyph, so this is ok.  It'll be goofy to use DS without DB especially in the instance where you could delay DS by 20 seconds, BUT if you ever delay it, you will only delay the next DS + DB phase.  You will, however, have a slightly lower overall DS uptime if you glyph it and don't delay it.

If you DO delay DS for DB, it looks like this:

0 seconds - DS + DB
40 seconds - DB
80 seconds - DS + DB
120 seconds - DB
160 seconds - DB + DS
200 seconds - DB
240 seconds - DB + DS

DS uptime over 260 seconds = 40/260 = 15%.

Here, you get FOUR phases with DB + DS IF YOU DELAY DARK SOUL UNTIL YOUR NEXT DB PHASE.  Basically, every other DB phase will be empowered.  If you talent AD, and it's not broken, you should theoretically be able to pick any other 40 second interval and also combine DB with DS, but you can only do this once.  This would, however, give you the flexibility of having another burst window.  However, notice that your overall DS uptime drops to 15%.  This is important to keep in mind because by glyphing it, you increase your DB + DS phases by 1 but have an 8% decrease in DS uptime over 260 seconds.  Basically, you choose if you want higher burst during DB or higher uptime with DS.  Since DB is intricate and by far our most valuable spell, choosing the glyph is fine but not choosing the glyph is ok, too.  The difference should be very small, but if you glyph it, you MUST delay DS for DB for the value to come out ahead. 

All of this evaluation is done with 240-260 seconds, so longer fights will have different feedback numbers, but they won't be different enough to come up with a steadfast conclusion.  This, however, WILL be different if a fight lasts with lengths of 3:00, 5:00, or 7:00, where a non-glyphed DS wouldn't be usable and would be 60 seconds away from being used again.  Glyphing DS gives you more flexibility on fight durations to maximize your uptime.  This is similar in difference between GoSupremacy and GoService in terms of burst potential with your Felguard - if a fight lasts even minutes (2, 4, 6:00, etc), Service tends to win out.  However, the window of of 2:00-2:20 and 6:00-6:20 is smaller than 6:20-8:00 and 4:20-6:00. 

Basically, you're nitpicking very small numbers, but it will have SOME impact.  Overall, I suggest glyphing Dark Soul and delaying it for DB but only if you can do this perfectly on schedule every time.  Not glyphing it is ok and will make your opening burst even more powerful. 

God does it feel good to get into numbers again.  I'm on my way home in 45 minutes and will be at my computer at home in the mountains of WV in 12 hours.  Hope this wasn't confusing...I may or may not be enjoying my last rum punch.

[Watermasta 7]

NEEERRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

 

Just kidding! Very informative! Enjoyed the read!

[Astynax 24]

Posted this in another thread as a thinking-out-loud moment.  Posting it here for relevancy.

 

 

After looking at logs, it's looking a lot more like you use DB every 40 seconds, not delaying it for DS.  The trade off is DS uptime because of how you delay it.  DB is too much damage to delay, so every 20 seconds you delay it for DS is a DPS loss, although combining it with Dark Soul compensates a small bit. 

Without glyphing it, this is how it looks:

0 seconds - DS + DB

40 seconds - DB

80 seconds - DB

120 seconds - DS + DB

160 seconds - DB

200 seconds - DB

240 seconds - DS + DB

DS uptime through 260 seconds would be 60/260 = 23%.

Basically without glyphing it, every 3rd one is DB phase + 30%.  Since DB is by far the highest damage source, you want to push it out as much as possible.  This is, of course, if you use it right in line every time.  This discredits trinket syncronization.

If you were to instead delay DB for a glyphed DS, you obviously would lose a lot.  No need to evaluate this.

If you glyph DS, then your values look like this if you do NOT delay DB for DS.

0 seconds - DS + DB

40 seconds - DB

60 seconds - DS

80 seconds - DB

120 seconds - DS + DB

160 seconds - DB

180 seconds - DS

200 seconds - DB

240 seconds - DS + DB

DS uptime through 260 seconds = 50/260 = 19%

Here, you are getting 3 DB phases with DS, the same as you would without the glyph, so this is ok.  It'll be goofy to use DS without DB especially in the instance where you could delay DS by 20 seconds, BUT if you ever delay it, you will only delay the next DS + DB phase.  You will, however, have a slightly lower overall DS uptime if you glyph it and don't delay it.

If you DO delay DS for DB, it looks like this:

0 seconds - DS + DB

40 seconds - DB

80 seconds - DS + DB

120 seconds - DB

160 seconds - DB + DS

200 seconds - DB

240 seconds - DB + DS

DS uptime over 260 seconds = 40/260 = 15%.

Here, you get FOUR phases with DB + DS IF YOU DELAY DARK SOUL UNTIL YOUR NEXT DB PHASE.  Basically, every other DB phase will be empowered.  If you talent AD, and it's not broken, you should theoretically be able to pick any other 40 second interval and also combine DB with DS, but you can only do this once.  This would, however, give you the flexibility of having another burst window.  However, notice that your overall DS uptime drops to 15%.  This is important to keep in mind because by glyphing it, you increase your DB + DS phases by 1 but have an 8% decrease in DS uptime over 260 seconds.  Basically, you choose if you want higher burst during DB or higher uptime with DS.  Since DB is intricate and by far our most valuable spell, choosing the glyph is fine but not choosing the glyph is ok, too.  The difference should be very small, but if you glyph it, you MUST delay DS for DB for the value to come out ahead. 

All of this evaluation is done with 240-260 seconds, so longer fights will have different feedback numbers, but they won't be different enough to come up with a steadfast conclusion.  This, however, WILL be different if a fight lasts with lengths of 3:00, 5:00, or 7:00, where a non-glyphed DS wouldn't be usable and would be 60 seconds away from being used again.  Glyphing DS gives you more flexibility on fight durations to maximize your uptime.  This is similar in difference between GoSupremacy and GoService in terms of burst potential with your Felguard - if a fight lasts even minutes (2, 4, 6:00, etc), Service tends to win out.  However, the window of of 2:00-2:20 and 6:00-6:20 is smaller than 6:20-8:00 and 4:20-6:00. 

Basically, you're nitpicking very small numbers, but it will have SOME impact.  Overall, I suggest glyphing Dark Soul and delaying it for DB but only if you can do this perfectly on schedule every time.  Not glyphing it is ok and will make your opening burst even more powerful. 

God does it feel good to get into numbers again.  I'm on my way home in 45 minutes and will be at my computer at home in the mountains of WV in 12 hours.  Hope this wasn't confusing...I may or may not be enjoying my last rum punch.

 

 

Going off of this, because maths.

 

Liquid and I were having a convo the other day about using a 3 demonbolt rotation instead of 4, to which my immediate reply was "that doesn't sound very normal..." Did the napkin math on it, using my approx demonbolt hit.

 

 

22k + 26.4k + 30.8k = 79.2k demo bolt damage every 32 seconds. 

22k + 26.4k + 30.8k + 39.6k = 119.2k damage every minute. 

32/60 = 53.3% of time spent. 100 - 53.3 = 46.7 

79.2k x 1.467 = 116.18k. So it's a little less demo bolt damage. Meaning you have to make that up somewhere. Close enough to make a difference in fights that hinder you with movement, and maybe to matter with soul fire damage, but not leaps and bounds ahead. 

 

 

I make a couple of assumptions with them, but it was meant to be an estimate. Later on, I realized it has some surprising implications in terms of haste value: that is, if you can get demonbolt debuff below a 30 second, or to a 30 second duration, and the fury generation can't keep up with the rotation, I could see a 3 then 4 rotation coming up as the best. I'm not sure though, and haven't done enough testing to say one way or the other. Your math proves the case of delaying DS though. So yeah. Just an idea.

[Liquidsteel 279]

I uploaded Twins and Ko'ragh to my youtube channel. Twins was poor play all round but was decent damage nontheless.

[Desos 18]

Logs of my HM Butcher kill:

 

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wn3Rz8HfYgZ2aDhk/#type=damage-done

 

We had to drop two lower DPS to get the kill. Spriest and Enh sham that were at 14-15k

 

Compared to our kill(avg ilvl just 2 higher than yours), I would suggest you would have been better off with dropping a healer or so. 5/18 versus 6/30.

 

But in general I think that the bosses are tighter tuned on a smaller rooster.

We tried to kill the Imperator on nhc out of fun with 13 peopl with maybe like 70% mains. Didn´t managed to get past mid P3. 

With our mainraid we managed a kill on heroic with 30 people after everyone figured out how to trigger mines(Hint: Never).

[Soulzar 42]

 

With our mainraid we managed a kill on heroic with 30 people after everyone figured out how to trigger mines(Hint: Never).

 

It was clear after last nights attempts that our raid group needs another week of gear to not trigger mines.  Gear issue only... lol

[Lockybalboa 618]

It was clear after last nights attempts that our raid group needs another week of gear to not trigger mines.  Gear issue only... lol

 

 

I truly believe that the only time a raid is good at dodging fire and switching to adds is when they know that downing bosses is more fun then raiding with them as individuals. If one of them stands in the way of downing a boss, replace them.